Can We Stop Dogpiling, Please?

[Albion]

15 hours ago, Aeroprism said:

This is where I love being socially clueless.  I do.  I am.

 

I have no idea who this topic refers to.  I just love everyone.

Even me???, I am pretty nasty.

[Yomo Kimyata]

4 hours ago, Shadeknight said:

 

At most, a conversation is had. But the desired change may not be so easily achieved. Forum/internet anonymity works wonders.

I for one don't intend to stop being The Forum Cop.

 

A buddy of mine wrote this article on why people are mean on the Internet.  For best results, read it then log in anonymously and tell him how much it sucks!

 

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/darwins-subterranean-world/201901/posted-anonymous

[Alchemystic]

You mean this self-insert power fantasy game attracts people with bumptious tendencies? whaaaaat.

[Aeroprism]

6 hours ago, Albion said:

Even me???, I am pretty nasty.

 

You did put a comma after three straight question marks so you are making it very difficult but, no matter.  I stand by what I said.

Everyone.

[Ironblade]

On 11/6/2021 at 2:54 PM, GraspingVileTerror said:

My intent was to appeal to members of this community as a peer.

I have no peers.  I am a paragon among nerds.  😛

[Clave Dark 5]

Another forum I go onto calls this "vague posting" and tells you just report it to the board mods to look at, and then movie on.

[wjrasmussen]

On 11/4/2021 at 5:11 PM, GraspingVileTerror said:

I'm not asking everyone to be perfect angels.

 

I'm just hoping some people will stop themselves from hitting "Submit Reply" when their message buffer is full of something decidedly antagonistic.

If you are going to ask for this, then I would ask that you also put out there that, in regard to game changes, people need to understand a few things:

1)  There are limit dev resources here and they will work on what they want to work on.

2)  We don't get a custom version of the game.

3)  Just because you want a change, doesn't make it an improvement to the game even if it is an improvement for you.

4)  for the just discussing ideas people, perhaps it might be ok to be rude to you.  That ideas thread might be better put outside of general.

5)  People who don't like a suggestion or say no to a suggestion, do not owe anyone a reason.  PERIOD.

[Triumphant]

Quote

5)  People who don't like a suggestion or say no to a suggestion, do not owe anyone a reason.  PERIOD.

 

While in the strictest sense, this may be true, providing some context behind the reason for your position may help others understand it, and perhaps even win you an ally.  I recommend putting in a little effort to explain your position.  It may be useful for others (including the Devs, who have real power to change things) to see that you have a valid point.

[Aeroprism]

41 minutes ago, Triumphant said:

 

While in the strictest sense, this may be true, providing some context behind the reason for your position may help others understand it, and perhaps even win you an ally.  I recommend putting in a little effort to explain your position.  It may be useful for others (including the Devs, who have real power to change things) to see that you have a valid point.

 

I agree with this.  This is a forum, not an election.  Just saying "no" to an idea brings absolutely nothing. It will neither sway the devs nor tip any balance, we're not here to vote but to discuss.

 

Because Forum.

[Bionic_Flea]

I am torn between an explanation and just-say-no (/jranger).

 

If you, as a poster, have a unique take on it or are an early responder then yes, you should provide some detail.  But if your positions have already been expressed by others I think a "no" is perfectly acceptable.

[Aeroprism]

10 minutes ago, Bionic_Flea said:

I am torn between an explanation and just-say-no (/jranger).

 

If you, as a poster, have a unique take on it or are an early responder then yes, you should provide some detail.  But if your positions have already been expressed by others I think a "no" is perfectly acceptable.

 

In that case, maybe a simple "No, for reasons stated above" would be nicer than just a "no" ?

Utopia, I know.

 

Oh and @Bionic_FleaI need to ask: what does jranger mean? 

Edited November 8, 2021 by Aeroprism

[Bill Z Bubba]

8 minutes ago, Aeroprism said:

what does jranger mean? 

 

 

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=%2Fjranger

Edited November 8, 2021 by Bill Z Bubba

[GraspingVileTerror]

I'll post a link back to https://forums.homecomingservers.com/topic/32055-pv2-vendor-sell-a-permanent-or-temp-hold-power/page/2/?tab=comments#comment-410175 then, @wjrasmussen.

I'm not the authority to enshrine these statements though.  And, at the moment, the GMs and Homecoming Team are focusing their energy on the Beta.

After that, and a short break too, I think it would be beneficial to have a sit down and hash out some thoughts on productive etiquette.

 

As far as "no" and the more hostile variations of shouting down a suggestion, my view is summed up as:

-It's valuable feedback to the Devs to know if there are people who are uncomfortable with a proposal.

-It's FAR MORE valuable feedback to everyone; Devs and community alike, to actually explain a point of view.

-If an individual feels that their point of view is self evident, then it behoves them to remember that no one else may agree, and even if past discussions took place, the various natures at play in this forum (or any) means that it is far more productive to provide a link to the past argument that you feel validates your point of view.

In short:  I think a "no" should be avoided in favour of posting a link.  Every time.

 

It's true that no one is obligated to do other people's research for them.

But it sure as hell makes things a lot easier and more productive for everybody when we share information freely!

 

 

 

Of course, all of that is part of the wider public discussion that I would like to see happen with @Cipher, @Jimmy (whatever happened to Jimmy?  The last few posts from Jimmy were deleted or hidden, and the last forum activity was a thread getting followed in August), and any other members of the Homecoming Team interested in giving some structure for the purposes of a healthier and more productive forum environment.

And for anyone thinking to comment "it'll never work" or some variation of pessimistic "people are too shitty to care" . . . I kindly ask that keep that sentiment to yourself.  

Of course it won't work if no one ever tries!  And part of trying is failing, learning, and iterating.  I'm not proposing the impossible.  I'm proposing something that will be difficult, but absolutely obtainable.

 

Ultimately, this thread's purpose was merely a request for some folks to be less hostile in situations where simply remaining silent would have ironically been far more helpful to both the target and the whole community.

It's okay to not reply to a thread you don't like.  It can quietly disappear in to the bowels of the archives.

And if you're going to reply, you can post something constructive and informative, rather than vitriolic.

[Aeroprism]

Quote

Commonly used in the MMO City of Heroes forums, mostly in the suggestions and ideas section

 

Wow, that is one extremely context-specific piece of internet lingo 😄

 

Thank you for the explanation, @Bill Z Bubba

 

[Ruin Mage]

2 hours ago, GraspingVileTerror said:

whatever happened to Jimmy?

Real life is a master of making it hard to be around.

 

 

2 hours ago, GraspingVileTerror said:

I think it would be beneficial to have a sit down and hash out some thoughts on productive etiquette.

It would go nowhere, nor is it really required. The people who are productive will remain productive - which will be subjective anyway.

 

 

2 hours ago, GraspingVileTerror said:

Of course it won't work if no one ever tries!

Not quite how it works, but this belief isn't inherently bad. It's about reading the room and recognizing what is possible in a community of strangers & what others are willing to do / go through. Public discussion, while nice, may simply not go anywhere or be worth it. It's not meant to be pessimism, but more of a thought based on experience in wider communities. The whole approach of 'We should try this to change this!' is nice but naive.

The forums will, for the most part, remain as they are - nothing is truly truly that heinous that some big shift is needed. Report vitriolic posts, don't engage with the vitriolic, and that's that. Part of the issue is that once you engage with the vitriolic? You can often just go in circles with them. That's the trap of it all. A very easy trap - because someone somewhere wants to be right.

There are people as well who use the reactions (Confused, Laugh, thumbs down) in more mean-spirited manner. You (speaking generally here) cannot do a thing about that, because despite it being mean-spirited it can't be controlled. Not without bordering into really sketchy enforcement, victim complexes (Unlikely, but possible), or otherwise shaky ground.

[Aeroprism]

28 minutes ago, Shadeknight said:

Part of the issue is that once you engage with the vitriolic? You can often just go in circles with them. That's the trap of it all. A very easy trap - because someone somewhere wants to be right.

 

That's a straight line to one of my favorite mantras ever:  Never argue with a fool, they will only bring you down to their own level and beat you with experience.

It serves absolutely no purpose to argue with a troll or with someone who just wants to pick an e-fight, and this is something we MASSIVELY witness in these days of internet misonformation and youtube-doctorates.  There people have their own rules that defy reason and logic.  Think about it: you're in a schoolyard, playing ball against a kid who changes the rules every 5 seconds.  How can you win? 

 

You can't.

 

Am I getting too far off-topic?

 

[wjrasmussen]

3 hours ago, GraspingVileTerror said:

I'll post a link back to https://forums.homecomingservers.com/topic/32055-pv2-vendor-sell-a-permanent-or-temp-hold-power/page/2/?tab=comments#comment-410175 then, @wjrasmussen.

I'm not the authority to enshrine these statements though.  And, at the moment, the GMs and Homecoming Team are focusing their energy on the Beta.

After that, and a short break too, I think it would be beneficial to have a sit down and hash out some thoughts on productive etiquette.

 

As far as "no" and the more hostile variations of shouting down a suggestion, my view is summed up as:

-It's valuable feedback to the Devs to know if there are people who are uncomfortable with a proposal.

-It's FAR MORE valuable feedback to everyone; Devs and community alike, to actually explain a point of view.

-If an individual feels that their point of view is self evident, then it behoves them to remember that no one else may agree, and even if past discussions took place, the various natures at play in this forum (or any) means that it is far more productive to provide a link to the past argument that you feel validates your point of view.

In short:  I think a "no" should be avoided in favour of posting a link.  Every time.

 

It's true that no one is obligated to do other people's research for them.

But it sure as hell makes things a lot easier and more productive for everybody when we share information freely!

 

 

 

Of course, all of that is part of the wider public discussion that I would like to see happen with @Cipher, @Jimmy (whatever happened to Jimmy?  The last few posts from Jimmy were deleted or hidden, and the last forum activity was a thread getting followed in August), and any other members of the Homecoming Team interested in giving some structure for the purposes of a healthier and more productive forum environment.

And for anyone thinking to comment "it'll never work" or some variation of pessimistic "people are too shitty to care" . . . I kindly ask that keep that sentiment to yourself.  

Of course it won't work if no one ever tries!  And part of trying is failing, learning, and iterating.  I'm not proposing the impossible.  I'm proposing something that will be difficult, but absolutely obtainable.

 

Ultimately, this thread's purpose was merely a request for some folks to be less hostile in situations where simply remaining silent would have ironically been far more helpful to both the target and the whole community.

It's okay to not reply to a thread you don't like.  It can quietly disappear in to the bowels of the archives.

And if you're going to reply, you can post something constructive and informative, rather than vitriolic.

Look, I have been online a very long time.  I like to use no because it is clear and it serves to shutdown the people who use the tactic:  Here is my idea prove me wrong.  They need to convince us their idea is good for everyone.  Making something optional doesn't mean it won't have a deleterious effect on the game/community.

 

If the devs are looking for input, having a focused survey period would be more productive, I feel, than random posts around the forums.  It will give devs a way to explore those areas they want to develop and put aside those which are noise to the discussion. But wait, little billly has an idea and he has to let the world know about it because a billy idea is the greatest idea.

 

Sure I get negative from time to time.  But there is something about people who don't like to hear the word no that is annoying.  Part of being an adult mean putting is that when you put an idea out there, you have to be able to accept no as an answer.  There doesn't need to be a discussion about why.

[Triumphant]

I think that's wrong-headed but I do, at least, appreciate you taking the time to explain why you approach it that way that you do.

[Glacier Peak]

3 hours ago, GraspingVileTerror said:

I kindly ask that keep that sentiment to yourself.  

This is the main point of the post - by reading this one part of the entire paragraph, readers will understand that this is just about trying to play forum cop.

[Aeroprism]

19 minutes ago, wjrasmussen said:

But there is something about people who don't like to hear the word no that is annoying.  Part of being an adult mean putting is that when you put an idea out there, you have to be able to accept no as an answer.  There doesn't need to be a discussion about why.

 

While there's undeniable truth in this, I would still like to underline that it depends on context.

 

I generally try to explain everything but when my 7 years old asks me something that can only be answered with "No, because I said so", then that's that.

 

This place however, is a forum in which people are looking for discussion.  I feel that going with just "No" is a lack of consideration. It's just an opinion of course, and I can 100% assure you that if I ever put something on the suggestion forum and you answer "No" and nothing more, not only will I not bother you for further details, I will certainly not lose any sleep over it.

 

I like to explain everything. Some people don't. Such is life.

[Ruin Mage]

30 minutes ago, Glacier Peak said:

trying to play forum cop.

No one is stealing my (admittedly with no pay) job!

[PeregrineFalcon]

On 11/7/2021 at 7:16 AM, Triumphant said:

Well, with regard to being a "Forum Cop", I think there is a very notable difference between encouraging a general attitude of friendliness and understanding, as opposed to directly confronting and chastising a specific forum member directly (encroaching on the mods territory).  The former (in my view, at least) is acceptable, while the latter is not.

Personally I don't mind the "forums cops" confronting me.

 

What I do hate is when someone gets mad because I shut down their argument, so they log out of their personal account and into their mod account so that they can mod-smack me. It's one thing to get mod-smacked because I got a little heated and stepped over the line, it's a completely different thing to get mod-smacked because the other person's ego is stinging because you took their argument apart.

 

And do not waste my time telling me that this doesn't happen on this forum. I've been shown screenshots proving that it does and has happened.

[Bill Z Bubba]

I've mostly agreed with every mod-smack I've received. Still don't feel at all in the wrong for posting what I posted, though. They have their rules, I have mine. I'm in their playground, so I have to follow their rules or deal with the consequences. No different than many other areas of our lives.

 

I am finding that I'm less likely these days to point out when someone is being stupid/ignorant/illogical/insane but that's only due to accepting that 2/3 of our species fall into those categories and it's just no longer worth my time.

 

Moving to the legal pot and taking a year long vacation may also be playing a role.

 

 

[Triumphant]

Quote

Moving to the legal pot and taking a year long vacation may also be playing a role.

 

I do imagine that might make someone more relaxed about life.  😂

[wjrasmussen]

1 hour ago, Aeroprism said:

 

While there's undeniable truth in this, I would still like to underline that it depends on context.

 

I generally try to explain everything but when my 7 years old asks me something that can only be answered with "No, because I said so", then that's that.

 

This place however, is a forum in which people are looking for discussion.  I feel that going with just "No" is a lack of consideration. It's just an opinion of course, and I can 100% assure you that if I ever put something on the suggestion forum and you answer "No" and nothing more, not only will I not bother you for further details, I will certainly not lose any sleep over it.

 

I like to explain everything. Some people don't. Such is life.

I am not always looking for discussion.  I am certainly not looking for debate.  F that consideration. Good, you shouldn't lose any sleep over it.

The discussion quip is also a bit of a cop out.  It is similar to just saying no.  Well, people want discussion simply justifies it and those who don't think that way are _____ with whatever you think they are.