Interface (Incarnate Power) vagaries

[Scarlet Shocker]

I've been reading the descriptions for the Incarnate power Interface slot and frankly it's just left me scratching my head.

 

The descriptions are so vague on many of them as to be next to hopeless, and  it seems almost impossible to get any actual numbers out of them. Even "Detailed Info" tab in the description of the powers is about as much use as a rubber duck in the Sahara. So how is one to make an informed decision about what powers to actually take?

 

Even the phrase "Adds a chance of X to most damaging attacks" is vague. I'm presuming that this actually means most attacks that you do to an enemy which involve doing damage to said enemy will have this chance, but it could also be read as the attacks that do most damage have a chance to proc. The language seems unclear and unsatisfactory.

 

The data just doesn't seem to be there. Descriptions of powers seem to have no actual values in them. Activation time and recharge time are both given values of 0.00s.

 

This is exacerbated by some powers being hard to understand - I'll use Degenerative as a good example here. Degenerative Core Flawless Interface adds a -Max HP debuff proc (75% chance) and a Minor Toxic DoT (25% chance) to most damaging attacks.

 

What does that mean in real English? Does it actually reduce the Max HP of a mob 3 out of 4 times? Does it stack? If it does, by what value is that HP reduced? How long does it last? Target type is listed as "Self" in detailed info. This would lead me to suspect that if I attack a mob, my max HP reduces. That makes no sense whatsoever. Effect area is "Single target" but what happens if I cast an AoE and it procs? Does it pick one target at random? What's the determining factor?

 

So much of these descriptions make my head hurt. I appreciate this is a hangover from live but is there any way to get good info that allows us to make an informed choice, because as things stand mostly it's guesswork.

[Placta]

• Tier only matters for the chance each proc has to fire.
• Stacks don't depend on source; 1 or 50 people all firing at the target just affect how quickly you'll reach the cap.
• Credit to UberGuy and City of Data for this information.

 

Cognitive
Confuse: 4.3 seecond magnitude 2 confuse, stacks up to 4 times
Psionic DoT: 10.709 psionic damage per second for 4.3 seconds, stacks up to 8 times

 

Degenerative
Max HP: -3.5% max hp (capped at 1000 for archvillains and similarly strong enemies) for 8.3 seconds, stacks up to 4 times
Toxic DoT: 10.709 toxic damage per second for 4.3 seconds, stacks up to 8 times

 

Diamagnetic
ToHit: -5% tohit for 8.3 seconds, stacks up to 4 times
Regeneration: -10% regeneration for 8.3 seconds, stacks up to 4 times

 

Gravitic
Recharge: -10% recharge for 8.3 seconds, stacks up to 4 times
Movement: -10% jump height, run speed, flying speed, jumping speed for 8.3 seconds, stacks up to 4 times

Recovery: -10% recovery for 8.3 seconds, stacks up to 4 times

 

Paralytic
Defense: -2.5% defense for 8.3 seconds, stacks up to 4 times
Damage: -5% damage for 8.3 seconds, stacks up to 4 times

 

Preemptive
Endurance/Recovery: -1% endurance per second for 4.3 seconds, -5% recovery for 4.3 seconds, stacks up to 4 times
Energy DoT: 13.3863 energy damage per second for 4.3 seconds, stacks up to 8 times

 

Reactive
Resistance: -2.5% damage resistance for 8.3 seconds, stacks up to 4 times
Fire DoT: 13.3863 fire damage per second for 4.3 seconds, stacks up to 8 times

 

Spectral
Immobilize: 4.3 second magnitude 2 immobilize, stacks up to 4 times
Negative DoT: 13.3863 negative damage per second for 4.3 seconds, stacks up to 8 times

 

------------

Edited November 16, 2021 by Placta
Some additions, one correction.

[twozerofoxtrot]

6 hours ago, Scarlet Shocker said:

Effect area is "Single target" but what happens if I cast an AoE and it procs? Does it pick one target at random? What's the determining factor?

 

Placta hit all the important stuff but here's a few answers and a bit extra.

 

The Interface will proc off an AoE much like a Damage Proc IO would, with individual rolls against each target hit for application of effects.

 

Speaking of which, the damage components roll to hit not only on the power cast (whatever it is you're casting on the enemy), but also *on each tick thereafter* to see if it will keep doing damage. So essentially the DOTs can self-cancel randomly. 

 

Finally just know that your pets, if you have any, will apply your interface effects in the enemy as well.

[Clave Dark 5]

Yet another knock against the Incarnate system.  Besides needing rethinking, it needs better descriptions.  Somehow it's like a big complex system dropped into the game with no instruction manual.

[oedipus_tex]

8 hours ago, Placta said:

• Preemptive

Endurance/Recovery: -1% endurance per second for 4.3 seconds, -5% recovery for 4.3 seconds, stacks up to 4 times
Energy DoT: 13.3863 energy damage per second for 4.3 seconds, stacks up to 8 times

 

 

The effectiveness of this one on sapper builds still eludes me. Does -1% endurance per second for 4.3 seconds translate to an overall loss of -4.3% endurance after 4.3 seconds? I can't think of any other powers that drain endurance over time like that. I have this proc on my Elec/Psi Dominator but have a hard time figuring out how much its actually contributing. 

[SuperPlyx]

Using Power Analyzer on a Death Mage:

 

 

Each instance of PI that you see lasted roughly 4 seconds. 

 

Now how often it procs is to much math for me.

 

 

Edited November 16, 2021 by SuperPlyx
Should note this on Beta with new Elec Blast set.

[Sovera]

To make it worse all the actual numbers are terribad. Interface only has one use and it's denting an AV's regen via Degenerative.

[Scarlet Shocker]

9 hours ago, Sovera said:

To make it worse all the actual numbers are terribad. Interface only has one use and it's denting an AV's regen via Degenerative.

 

That's good enough for me. Thanks 🙂

 

 

 

I do think the whole thing needs at least reworking descriptively.

 

I'm having exactly the same issue with Destiny. The descriptions leave so many unanswered questions hanging there. With Destiny they all seem to be PBAoE +Ally. Does the caster get any benefit at all? Do pets benefit? There's a drop off in effect over time but how does that work in practice?

[oedipus_tex]

34 minutes ago, Scarlet Shocker said:

I'm having exactly the same issue with Destiny. The descriptions leave so many unanswered questions hanging there. With Destiny they all seem to be PBAoE +Ally. Does the caster get any benefit at all? Do pets benefit? There's a drop off in effect over time but how does that work in practice?

 

 

Destiny powers work like an Empathy PBAoE buff. They hit all friendly targetable creatures up the target cap (usually around 250+) including the caster. Pets are affected as long as they are targetable.  

[Sovera]

1 hour ago, Scarlet Shocker said:

 

That's good enough for me. Thanks 🙂

 

 

 

I do think the whole thing needs at least reworking descriptively.

 

I'm having exactly the same issue with Destiny. The descriptions leave so many unanswered questions hanging there. With Destiny they all seem to be PBAoE +Ally. Does the caster get any benefit at all? Do pets benefit? There's a drop off in effect over time but how does that work in practice?

 

The short answer is :

 

- If you need a panic button OR 5% defense + resistance to complete a goal, then Barrier 120 seconds.

- If you have endurance or not enough recharge, then Ageless 120 seconds.

 

I realize this does not answer your question(s) but it's an obtuse system and I feel, IMO, after having looked and poked at it, that it's better to just ask which is best at what and then pick it without going deep into the mechanics.

 

 

Long answer:

 

- All the numbers stack. If you look at Mids or in game (you can right click the powers and then click on the Info tab) you'll see a row of 'Gives X for Y seconds'. They all stack together. But once the duration ends it removes itself. So in the case of Barrier it starts as a huge boost for the first ten seconds, then a bit less for the first 30 seconds. Then less until the first minute has passed. Then the last minute of the two minute duration it gives 5% to defense and resistances. Once the two minutes are over it can be used right away making for a permanent 5% to a build. It's usually used when you know there will be an ambush, or about to go fight an AV, or if you see your HP going down to the red and your heal was already used.

[Riverdusk]

Can find some of the numbers/info on the wiki as well:

 

https://hcwiki.cityofheroes.dev/wiki/Incarnate_System

 

Although can't always be 100% sure of the info, for instance the wiki says Diamagnetic does -15% regen per application and above someone pointed to City of Data where it says -10%?

Either way, still really bad values when the AV you need it for resists about 85% of it.

[macskull]

22 minutes ago, Riverdusk said:

Either way, still really bad values when the AV you need it for resists about 85% of it.

This is part of the reason degenerative is the only really worthwhile interface ability (and to a much lesser extent, reactive). AV resistance isn't a thing for -HP and -res.

[Scarlet Shocker]

On 11/15/2021 at 11:58 PM, Placta said:

• Tier only matters for the chance each proc has to fire.
• Stacks don't depend on source; 1 or 50 people all firing at the target just affect how quickly you'll reach the cap.
• Credit to UberGuy and City of Data for this information.

 

Cognitive
Confuse: 4.3 seecond magnitude 2 confuse, stacks up to 4 times
Psionic DoT: 10.709 psionic damage per second for 4.3 seconds, stacks up to 8 times

 

Degenerative
Max HP: -3.5% max hp (capped at 1000 for archvillains and similarly strong enemies) for 8.3 seconds, stacks up to 4 times
Toxic DoT: 10.709 toxic damage per second for 4.3 seconds, stacks up to 8 times

 

Diamagnetic
ToHit: -5% tohit for 8.3 seconds, stacks up to 4 times
Regeneration: -10% regeneration for 8.3 seconds, stacks up to 4 times

 

Gravitic
Recharge: -10% recharge for 8.3 seconds, stacks up to 4 times
Movement: -10% jump height, run speed, flying speed, jumping speed for 8.3 seconds, stacks up to 4 times

Recovery: -10% recovery for 8.3 seconds, stacks up to 4 times

 

Paralytic
Defense: -2.5% defense for 8.3 seconds, stacks up to 4 times
Damage: -5% damage for 8.3 seconds, stacks up to 4 times

 

Preemptive
Endurance/Recovery: -1% endurance per second for 4.3 seconds, -5% recovery for 4.3 seconds, stacks up to 4 times
Energy DoT: 13.3863 energy damage per second for 4.3 seconds, stacks up to 8 times

 

Reactive
Resistance: -2.5% damage resistance for 8.3 seconds, stacks up to 4 times
Fire DoT: 13.3863 fire damage per second for 4.3 seconds, stacks up to 8 times

 

Spectral
Immobilize: 4.3 second magnitude 2 immobilize, stacks up to 4 times
Negative DoT: 13.3863 negative damage per second for 4.3 seconds, stacks up to 8 times

 

------------

 

 

This is really interesting, and far superior to the core data in game but still leaves me with questions. A quick example is Degenerative - Caps at 1000 what exactly? So we get them to 1000 and that's it, it doesn't take any more of these 1000 off? This is kinda getting into Tony Stark "I love you 3000"  territory. It's completely immeasurable. It's info but without context it fails to give answers but thanks for posting it

[Placta]

1 hour ago, Scarlet Shocker said:

A quick example is Degenerative - Caps at 1000 what exactly? So we get them to 1000 and that's it, it doesn't take any more of these 1000 off?

 

For archvillains, instead of each stack taking 3.5% of their max health, it takes lowers their max hp by 1000 instead. And it can stack up to four times, to -4000 max hp.

[Techwright]

On 11/15/2021 at 6:58 PM, Placta said:

• Tier only matters for the chance each proc has to fire.
• Stacks don't depend on source; 1 or 50 people all firing at the target just affect how quickly you'll reach the cap.
• Credit to UberGuy and City of Data for this information.

 

Cognitive
Confuse: 4.3 seecond magnitude 2 confuse, stacks up to 4 times
Psionic DoT: 10.709 psionic damage per second for 4.3 seconds, stacks up to 8 times

 

Degenerative
Max HP: -3.5% max hp (capped at 1000 for archvillains and similarly strong enemies) for 8.3 seconds, stacks up to 4 times
Toxic DoT: 10.709 toxic damage per second for 4.3 seconds, stacks up to 8 times

 

Diamagnetic
ToHit: -5% tohit for 8.3 seconds, stacks up to 4 times
Regeneration: -10% regeneration for 8.3 seconds, stacks up to 4 times

 

Gravitic
Recharge: -10% recharge for 8.3 seconds, stacks up to 4 times
Movement: -10% jump height, run speed, flying speed, jumping speed for 8.3 seconds, stacks up to 4 times

Recovery: -10% recovery for 8.3 seconds, stacks up to 4 times

 

Paralytic
Defense: -2.5% defense for 8.3 seconds, stacks up to 4 times
Damage: -5% damage for 8.3 seconds, stacks up to 4 times

 

Preemptive
Endurance/Recovery: -1% endurance per second for 4.3 seconds, -5% recovery for 4.3 seconds, stacks up to 4 times
Energy DoT: 13.3863 energy damage per second for 4.3 seconds, stacks up to 8 times

 

Reactive
Resistance: -2.5% damage resistance for 8.3 seconds, stacks up to 4 times
Fire DoT: 13.3863 fire damage per second for 4.3 seconds, stacks up to 8 times

 

Spectral
Immobilize: 4.3 second magnitude 2 immobilize, stacks up to 4 times
Negative DoT: 13.3863 negative damage per second for 4.3 seconds, stacks up to 8 times

 

------------

As one who normally does not do number crunching, (I tend to be fine with "low, medium, high, superior, phenomenal cosmic power") I'm pleased to see this, though it does bring back an old question long bugging me:  Why are the DoT's not all equal in dps?  I've a hypothesis regarding psionic being less, but its just a hypothesis, and I'm not clear at all on toxic being set less than energy and negative.  Why not set them all to the same level and let the player simply choose the flavor?

[Crysis]

If you really want a head scratcher dig into Lore pets, particularly the support pet.  Understanding what each one does vs the others across all the choices is crazy.  I’m just glad the fire farmers figured out early the ugly BP one was the best.

[Shred Monkey]

The beauty of the interface power is that they're very well balanced... all being pretty much worthless.  Even degenerative (I agree, as mentioned above, that it's the best) basically just speeds up AV fights by 1-2 seconds.   But it does essentially nothing the rest of the game.   Considering that most other incarnate powers are about equal to 1 fully slotted power, or a full enhancement slot on all powers, I think it would be reasonable to double the damage on these to make them similar to a slotted proc.

[KaizenSoze]

There is one circumstance I would pick Degenerative radial over core. Otherwise, it's core all the way.

 

If you're using Soldier of Arachnos venom grenade which provides -40 toxic resists. So, it boosts the toxic dot nicely.

[Black Zot]

1 hour ago, Shred Monkey said:

The beauty of the interface power is that they're very well balanced... all being pretty much worthless.  Even degenerative (I agree, as mentioned above, that it's the best) basically just speeds up AV fights by 1-2 seconds.   But it does essentially nothing the rest of the game.   Considering that most other incarnate powers are about equal to 1 fully slotted power, or a full enhancement slot on all powers, I think it would be reasonable to double the damage on these to make them similar to a slotted proc.

 

You'd have to remove the self-cancelling effect for that change to mean anything.

[Scarlet Shocker]

12 hours ago, Placta said:

 

For archvillains, instead of each stack taking 3.5% of their max health, it takes lowers their max hp by 1000 instead. And it can stack up to four times, to -4000 max hp.

 

Is that per player, or maximum? ie if 4 players on a team who can use it, would it reduce max hp  by -16000 or would it just reduce it by -4000 effectively for longer?

[Scarlet Shocker]

3 hours ago, Crysis said:

If you really want a head scratcher dig into Lore pets, particularly the support pet.  Understanding what each one does vs the others across all the choices is crazy.  I’m just glad the fire farmers figured out early the ugly BP one was the best.

 

Lore is easier simply because I go with what fits thematically. But you're correct it is less than ideal.

[Placta]

19 minutes ago, Scarlet Shocker said:

Is that per player, or maximum? ie if 4 players on a team who can use it, would it reduce max hp  by -16000 or would it just reduce it by -4000 effectively for longer?

 

Four stacks total, regardless of source.

 

It's why I don't fuss too much about choosing the "best" Interface power. I just pick one with a dot that matches my theme and go up the radial tree.

[Uun]

4 minutes ago, Placta said:

 

Four stacks total, regardless of source.

 

It's why I don't fuss too much about choosing the "best" Interface power. I just pick one with a dot that matches my theme and go up the radial tree.

I was just discussing this on another thread. While Degenerative may be the "best" debuff, it has become too popular. After 4 applications, any additional applications are wasted. 

[Crysis]

1 hour ago, Scarlet Shocker said:

 

Lore is easier simply because I go with what fits thematically. But you're correct it is less than ideal.

 

True, and I think most do likewise.  Which is fine since availability of the pets comes so late game and no way to really change their uptime.  Heck, outside of soloing AV’s or TF “zerg” tactics, I often forget I even have Lore pets.

[Without_Pause]

I go against conventional wisdom when it comes to Lore partly because it is just really odd for a Stalker, as an example, to be going around with massive sized pets.