Carnies Should Drop Bonus XP

[EyeLuvBooks]

The xp system in the game is based on a typical risk/reward metric where tougher opponents (usually measured by the Diff level) grant larger rewards. IMHO the Carnies, specifically the Illusionists, do not follow the normal benchmarks because with their Summoning abilities, you might wind up fighting twice as many opponents and the Summoned ones don't count for xp.

 

I have several suggestions as to how to remedy this:

1) Make the Summoned pets worth some xp. Not enough to rate farming them, but SOMETHING.

2) Make the Decoy pets vanish as soon as the Summoner is defeated. As it stands, the Decoy pets can remain after their creator is gone. No bueno.

3) Enable Illusionists to take SOME damage while in their Phased form. Right now they're immune to damage and this has got to be the most frustrating thing in the game. I don't care if they have 75% Damage Reduction...they should take SOME damage to enable the players to feel like they're doing something other than standing around waiting for the enemies to reappear.

 

If none of these suggestions (or others) are adopted, I think Carny Illusionists should grant more reward when they're defeated.

[Aurora_Girl]

No. We already had this conversation about summoned enemy things 15 years ago. No mas.  Something about how the decoys work, maybe fix the despawn on defeat part sure. 

 

Also who the hell are you and why are you necro-ing the entire board? 😛

Edited December 29, 2021 by Aurora_Girl
Added tongue-stick-out emoji

[UltraAlt]

The Malta auto turrets stay.

The Sky Raider force fields generators stay.

The various devouring earth pets stay; some of them even spawn more pets when they are "arrested".

Even spawned clockwork pets stay; and, again, spawn more when they are "arrested". 

Think the pets spawned by a Hellion Girlfriend from Hell even stay when they are "arrested".

 

My point being, it is not unusual for NPC pets to remain active once their summoners have been defeated.

 

There are multiple enemies from various villain groups that can phase and become invulnerable. 

 

All of this is what some might call "challenging content".

[EyeLuvBooks]

53 minutes ago, Aurora_Girl said:

No. We already had this conversation about summoned enemy things 15 years ago. No mas.  Something about how the decoys work, maybe fix the despawn on defeat part sure. 

 

Also who the hell are you and why are you necro-ing the entire board?

Just a concerned player back after a long hiatus ma'am.

[Greycat]

1 hour ago, Aurora_Girl said:

Also who the hell are you and why are you necro-ing the entire board?

 

There's no romancer like a necromancer, don'cha know. ;)

 

As far as the OP, generally (I can't speak for specifics on carnies, right this sec) the summoning enemy gives more XP than normal for their rank to make up for the summons. I *will* agree Carnies are more annoying, *especially* when rescuing something, because they can summon a phantasm, which then *itself* can summon a decoy phantasm, and if you're doing a rescue you need to wait for *both* to go away. Since the decoy can't be damaged and the phantasm itself gives no XP, having that vanish sooner would be nice.

 

(As far as the phasing, it's a pretty quick cycle, and as far as I recall if you have them in some sort of hold it stops the phasing in its tracks - and there's not really a shortage of holds out there, even for non controllers/doms.)

[Six-Six]

12 hours ago, EyeLuvBooks said:

1) Make the Summoned pets worth some xp. Not enough to rate farming them, but SOMETHING.

2) Make the Decoy pets vanish as soon as the Summoner is defeated. As it stands, the Decoy pets can remain after their creator is gone. No bueno.

3) Enable Illusionists to take SOME damage while in their Phased form. Right now they're immune to damage and this has got to be the most frustrating thing in the game. I don't care if they have 75% Damage Reduction...they should take SOME damage to enable the players to feel like they're doing something other than standing around waiting for the enemies to reappear.

I'm trying to read between the lines here, so forgive me if I'm way off. But it seems you've found your nemesis in Carnies. It sounds to me they're giving you a harder time (more than other foes at least) and therefore wish to get extra compensation for your efforts.

1) I personally don't think XP is a big issue. The P2W lady and I have long been on non-speaking terms; and on regular XP gain, I still get enough XP to the point that I have to turn XP off every now and then as not to out-level certain contacts. Also, the Circus peeps (on redside) appear around mid-30s. at that level, a few hundred additional XP from the summons in question would be negligible.

2) Decoys ARE annoying, but I believe they're there for a purpose. Even when the summoner dies, they linger, but they don't really follow you much. I think they're there to throw a monkey wrench on you target_nearest_enemy_alive macro or your tab targeting. You can ignore them and they shouldn't bother you if you're paying attention to what your hitting.

3) Illusionists are vulnerable to holds and stuns/disorient. knock em silly and take em down with ease. Another way, if your hold wasn't blessed by the RNG gods, is to take note of their dress colour. Their summons will have different dress colours so you can identify the original and take them down. IIRC, you can ignore the summons and they vanish after a while. Also if they do get to phase, it doesn't last long and then they dish a weak attack that's a tell tale giveaway that they're vulnerable again (like Fake Nemesis and his giant popsicle stick). Also, if you want XP for killing one of their illusions, then the flip side is Trollers should have an HP penalty when one from their phantom army is killed... which sort of defeats the purpose of the illusion and the power.

For you it might be Illusionists. For another bloke, it may be the the Seneschals or Ring Mistresses... or Devouring Earth Sentries and their Cairns... or Sappers, Rikty Monkeys, or something. Just think of it as a weakness of your particular toon. The weaker you are against it, the more satisfaction you get when you overcome it.

Edited December 29, 2021 by Six-Six

[EyeLuvBooks]

4 hours ago, Six-Six said:

I'm trying to read between the lines here, so forgive me if I'm way off. But it seems you've found your nemesis in Carnies. It sounds to me they're giving you a harder time (more than other foes at least) and therefore wish to get extra compensation for your efforts.

1) I personally don't think XP is a big issue. The P2W lady and I have long been on non-speaking terms; and on regular XP gain, I still get enough XP to the point that I have to turn XP off every now and then as not to out-level certain contacts. Also, Carnies (on redside) appear around mid-30s. at that level, a few hundred additional XP from the summons in question would be negligible.

2) Decoys ARE annoying, but I believe they're there for a purpose. Even when the summoner dies, they linger, but they don't really follow you much. I think they're there to throw a monkey wrench on you target_nearest_enemy_alive macro or your tab targeting. They shouldn't bother you if you're paying attention to what your hitting.

3) Illusionists are vulnerable to holds and stuns/disorient. knock em silly and take em down with ease. Another way, if your hold wasn't blessed by the RNG gods, is to take note of their dress colour. Their summons will have different dress colours so you can identify the original and take them down. IIRC, you can ignore the summons and they vanish after a while. Also if they do get to phase, it doesn't last long and then they dish a weak attack that's a tell tale giveaway that they're vulnerable again (like Fake Nemesis and his giant popsicle stick).

For you it might be Illusionists. For another bloke, it may be the the Seneschals or Ring Mistresses... or Devouring Earth Sentries and their Cairns... or Sappers, Rikty Monkeys, or something. Just think of it as a weakness of your particular toon. The weaker you are against it, the more satisfaction you get when you overcome it.

I play way too many characters of all stripes to worry about a nemesis. One of the reasons I'd like Illusionists (and Warwolves but that's another thread) is that I'd like for them to not be SO annoying that teams want to skip them. I like playing the content...just about ALL of the content...because in many cases there's some good story in there. However, we currently have some enemy types that are SO egregious that random teams actively avoid them. Nobody likes Arachnos because of the everlasting Blind effects. Nobody likes Malta because of the Sappers. Nobody likes Paragon Protectors because (as far as I know) they still use the OG 2-minute MoG. Since Homecoming I've discovered that all of my old teammates are gone and many of the new ones just want to race to 50. I'd like for the outlying enemies that everyone mentally rolls their eyes at to be more fun and less tedious to fight so teams stop skipping them.

 

A look at game data would likely reveal that the single least-chosen group of powers is the one that renders the target Untouchable for a certain amount of time. Many of us have been trying to get this altered since the game was Live. It's all about player agency. We don't care if we have to hammer on an enemy for ten minutes to defeat them as long as we see a few of the little numbers appear. But show a team the 'Unaffected' marker and let the groans commence. If a player uses such a power on enemies, you can be sure that eventually someone will ask them to stop because it keeps everyone from actually affecting the target.

 

Everyone encounters enemies that they either have a tough time with or simply can't defeat solo. That's part of how the game is designed. But when a whole team is reduced to 'well she's immaterial...guess we'd better stand around and chat' then that kills the vibe. The Carnies, as a group, are fine...I simply think that because the Illusionists are so predicated on Summoned pets and defeating those pets grants no xp, I think that there should be some incentive to actually fight them. 

[Greycat]

Side note, you should always be careful of saying "Nobody likes X group," because you will inevitably get the answer of "I love fighting them." ;)

 

Plus there are ways around most all of those, especially on today's teams. Protectors? Throw holds on the ones using energy attacks, since those are the ones that MoG, or hold on to your *big* hitting attack 'til they're at about 1/4 health or so since they can't MoG if they're dead. (Alternately, KB/KD plus another attack.) Heck, if you're running a control set and have a moment, right click and peek at info and it'll tell you what sets they run. If it mentions energy, get ready to slap holds on them.  Sappers? Easy to target. Blinded? Pop a yellow (if you're not on one of the sets that has a +perception buff or Tactics built in.) Or if you've got a PBAOE, well, that will hit things whether you can see them or not.

 

Honestly, the most dangerous thing about Carnies (besides a fair bit of psi, which is often a weak point) - especially if you're melee - is getting into a group and having multiple END drains hit you when they die. If you're not watching, you can have toggles drop.

 

Besides, by the time you're fighting these, you've got most or all of your powers and slots, plus you *should* have experience with dealing with problematic enemies from the last 40-odd levels. There's a reason they're tougher, after all. 

[Six-Six]

And therein lies the rub. I respect the Malta because of sappers, tanky gunslingers that freeze my psionically-challenged blasters, and the takes-forever-to-kill gun drones. So when I come across a mob with 2 sappers and 2 gunslingers conning red or above, I have to stop in my tracks and figure out the best approach. Same goes for a hard-hitting widow, a Mu and a spider queen. Which one do I target first? I hate Positron because he's tough and packs a punch... which is why I love facing Positron more than I enjoy beating down on Overdrive or Manti (other than the fact that Manti's a dick). It's fun for me because they can kill me (most of my toons are perma-death). 

I'm sure there are those who would deem them not worth their time. Which is fine, they don't have to play them. they can stick to council or what have you. I seriously doubt that the things you proposed would tip the balance and get them to play otherwise. Let them have their fun while you have yours as long as one doesn't prevent the other. It seems that (from your reply at least) the the problem is not the enemy mob type, nor the PUGs that prefer to avoid them, it's that your haven't found the right people to team with yet or again. I'm sure you'll somehow bump into like-minded players sooner or later. Until then, good luck and enjoy

[Sirius.Games]

We don't want to nerf enemies, they've largely been ignored as heroes have seen constant buffs (after radical balance nerfs early on during live. I will take each suggestion you made though.

 

1. Make more challenging enemies have an XP boost percentage. It would be cool to have a weekly chosen enemy that gives a boost instead however.... However XP really isn't an issue in game so if this is time intensive there are a lot more priorities on my list.

 

2. Pets are summoned, it's not a fixed spell like an offensive toggle so they should persist for continuity sake.

 

3. Illusionist should be able to use their abilities.

 

I would rather other factions see buffs honestly instead of making more "challenging" content easier.

 

 

 

[Glacier Peak]

You mean the Carnival of Shadow enemy group? The HC Team removed the term 'Carnies' because..... consistency!

 

On 8/24/2021 at 12:43 PM, Faultline said:

Renamed "Carnie" enemy group to "Carnival of Shadows" for consistency with "Carnival of Light", "Canival of Vengeance" and "Carnival of War".

Edited December 29, 2021 by Glacier Peak
found the quote

[Sirius.Games]

8 minutes ago, Six-Six said:

 I seriously doubt that the things you proposed would tip the balance and get them to play otherwise. Let them have their fun while you have yours as long as one doesn't prevent the other. It seems that (from your reply at least) the the problem is not the enemy mob type, nor the PUGs that prefer to avoid them, it's that your haven't found the right people to team with yet or again. I'm sure you'll somehow bump into like-minded players sooner or later. Until then, good luck and enjoy

This, people will avoid them still. More importantly a lot of people will continue to take the path of least resistance, whatever that may be.

 

If the data shows that overall an enemy is chosen more often then another enemy. Then the chosen enemy should be buffed not the other way around.

[JasperStone]

This is a Nemesis plot ....

[PeregrineFalcon]

I'm seriously divided on this topic.

 

I want to jranger because my friends and I love fighting Carnies (I don't care if that word is offensive, report me) and I don't see any reason to up their XP because they're no more of a challenge than Malta.

 

On the other hand, I fight Carnies all the time. Bonus XP, on top of getting to enjoy the screams of my victims, would be like icing on the cake.

 

Surely you can see the predicament this puts me in?

[A Cat]

Why do Rikti Communication Officers give "bonus XP" (they give LT xp while being minions IIRC) to compensate for the summons? Is this another case of inconsistent design? Or was there some farming related shenanigans from back in the day that resulted in this? 

 

Also, I have never heard of "carnies" being offensive O_O. 

[Glacier Peak]

30 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

I'm seriously divided on this topic.

 

I want to jranger because my friends and I love fighting Carnies (I don't care if that word is offensive, report me) and I don't see any reason to up their XP because they're no more of a challenge than Malta.

 

On the other hand, I fight Carnies all the time. Bonus XP, on top of getting to enjoy the screams of my victims, would be like icing on the cake.

 

Surely you can see the predicament this puts me in?

 

Looks like it was actually done for consistency:

On 8/24/2021 at 12:43 PM, Faultline said:

Renamed "Carnie" enemy group to "Carnival of Shadows" for consistency with "Carnival of Light", "Carnival of Vengeance" and "Carnival of War".

[Riverdusk]

It is interesting that almost all of these "problem" enemies are pretty easily countered by having a good controller or two on the team.   😉

 

 

[TheZag]

2 hours ago, A Cat said:

Why do Rikti Communication Officers give "bonus XP" (they give LT xp while being minions IIRC) to compensate for the summons? Is this another case of inconsistent design? Or was there some farming related shenanigans from back in the day that resulted in this? 

 

Also, I have never heard of "carnies" being offensive O_O. 

 

It was because of farming.  The summoned enemies gave xp and they would leave the portal up and farm it.  Same with the circle of thorns portal.

[Aurora_Girl]

2 hours ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

I'm seriously divided on this topic.

 

I want to jranger because my friends and I love fighting Carnies (I don't care if that word is offensive, report me) and I don't see any reason to up their XP because they're no more of a challenge than Malta.

 

On the other hand, I fight Carnies all the time. Bonus XP, on top of getting to enjoy the screams of my victims, would be like icing on the cake.

 

Surely you can see the predicament this puts me in?

 

It is truly a Sadie's Choice. 😏

[Yomo Kimyata]

Counter proposal:  cut Council and Freakshow xp in half.

[Riverdusk]

1 hour ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

Counter proposal:  cut Council and Freakshow xp in half.

 

Was thinking the same for a long time, not sure about 50%, but it wouldn't hurt for council to get hit with an xp penalty of some sort.  Freakshow actually already have an xp penalty (instituted way back in Issue 16), although no where near 50%.   

 

The addition of Super Stunners I think also helped balance Freakshow out a bit.  Council really have nothing with any special threatening powers at all, so another option would be to at least give them their own version of a "super stunner", with different mechanics/debuffs of course.  Council really are the joke of CoH currently.

[Six-Six]

13 hours ago, JasperStone said:

This is a Nemesis plot ....

This most definitely smells like a Nemesis Plot:

 

 

[MHertz]

I agree that the Council need a buff in the late game, preferably something other than “transform into a new form with 60% resist all and Mag 9 immob resist.” People choose Council missions because they lag behind Carnival of Shadows and Circle of Thorns and Arachnos in those late levels.

 

My opinion is that Council already get an XP buff by being lame. That’s the problem to fix.

[Greycat]

9 hours ago, Riverdusk said:

The addition of Super Stunners I think also helped balance Freakshow out a bit.  Council really have nothing with any special threatening powers at all, so another option would be to at least give them their own version of a "super stunner", with different mechanics/debuffs of course.  Council really are the joke of CoH currently.

 

3 hours ago, MHertz said:

I agree that the Council need a buff in the late game, preferably something other than “transform into a new form with 60% resist all and Mag 9 immob resist.” People choose Council missions because they lag behind Carnival of Shadows and Circle of Thorns and Arachnos in those late levels.

 

I *suspect* this was in the works, in a way, with the Council being one of the groups getting Praetorian tech (the War Walkers,) but not finished. Had the game been alive for another... I'd say three issues, maybe, we'd be talking about how the Council got buffed and X group needs it now.

[EyeLuvBooks]

Because apparently my message has been lost in the noise:

 

I'M FINE WITH THE DIFFICULTY FIGHTING HIGH-LEVEL ENEMIES! I simply think that EVERYTHING the players defeat should grant rewards. Yes, I remember the Rikti Communications farms. IIRC most of those were for badges like the Warwolves but it was still farming. However, I think that the OG Devs overreacted when trying to deal with some of these issues, most likely because CoH was a for-profit venture and they often had serious constraints on their resources. So they nixed the xp completely instead of trying something a little less extreme.

 

All I'm asking is for enemies that are defeated to drop SOMETHING of a reward. How about 5-10% of what the Illusionist herself is worth? At the high end that means that defeating all of her Summoned pets would be 20-30% bump in rewards for that one enemy only. Hardly what you would call game-breaking or farming material.

 

I am NOT trying to turn the top-end content into an xp free for all, I simply want to see a couple of little numbers appear over the enemy that I spent the time and energy to defeat.