Paying extra for improvements

[plainguy]

I am thinking would it be feasible to ALLOW players to play for customizations that could be expedited by outside sources at a cost.

Example

Devs have Mastermind Pet Customization down on  technical element, but there is artwork that needs to be done or effects.. 
They have someone in mind but this person just can't volunteer to do this work, they need to work and make money to pay the bills. Or maybe having just one volunteer doing this work isn't enough and you know outsourcing would help expedite the process.
That being said, I would imagine there is an over flow of cash on donation day that is dropped once the cap is met. 

What if there was a check box that a player could click that would say by checking this box I wish to donate funds to help pay for outside services. 
The check box is there so it gives players the option to pay to get something faster in game.. 
Again maybe you are not into Mastermind Pet Customization, but I am.. So I am willing to donate to get something I see value in much quicker in game.

I completely understand this cannot turn a profit and you cannot in any way have the appearance of drawing a salary. But just like paying for legal fees and such, hiring an outside artist, coder, or whatever does not seem to be breaking these guidelines. I can also see where once a person is paid they could never decide to be a volunteer and then decide to jump off being a volunteer and decide to get paid to do art work  or animation again.  As that would look like being intentional to make an income. 

Maybe have a voting system on 5 top ideas of what is looking to be added in game. 
Again for example.

Here are 5 ideas we are looking to implement in game. Please put them in order of interest to you. 

MM pet customization

New power set based around whips

New assorted weapons for all power sets 

Alternate power animations for these power sets. - Energy Blast from various body parts ( EG chest beam)  and weapons ( shoulder mounted cannon).

Addition of Wands and Staves to various power sets. EG Energy Blast from wand or staff tip. 

People make their choices and then you produce those results. 

I guess my concern would be, is there an issue of carrying over money in a situation like this.

EG MM Pet Customization wins.. 
That is going to cost 10k to get the artwork done.

Server cost are 5k on average monthly, but the total including the overage is maybe tops 8k. So doing the quick math at 3k over, it will take 4 months to obtain 10k ( 3k, 3k,3k, 1k). Or you can just make partial payments until it is paid in full.

I don't see this being controversial, you are just allowing players who can pay, to pay for extras that they would like to see in game maybe sooner than later and ONLY by clicking a box in agreement is this being done.  

[Glacier Peak]

On 9/26/2019 at 10:55 AM, Jimmy said:

We are also committed to continuing with our 100% free, not-for-profit, donation-driven model.

[TheZag]

Going above cost to pay for extras is still a profit model and has a greater chance to incur the wrath of NC with a cease and desist letter.  I prefer the safer path.

[arcane]

Even if this were in bounds, the thought of paying players having an outsized impact on the direction of development sounds sketchy and icky and wrongish.

[UltraAlt]

4 hours ago, plainguy said:

I am thinking would it be feasible to ALLOW players to play for customizations that could be expedited by outside sources at a cost.

 

As soon as you start paying someone, they become an employee/freelancer. Money exchanges hands and the government(s) step in; they want their piece-of-the-action, etc. and paperwork and possible legal engagement ensues which is all part of paying an individual for work that they do. 

 

Homecoming is doing fine.

We don't need to rush things (to 50 😛 aka "the end-game"). Enjoy the journey. Things have been DEVeloping nicely along the way. 

[Greycat]

Aside from the profit model arguments, there are a few other problems.

 

One, we don't have all the tools the original developers had. Sure, you can say "I want a new robot model," and hire someone who can create it and send a 3d model over. Now make it compatible with the game... We've gotten to where we can extract things and mix and match a bit. Creating completely from scratch, though?

 

And two, this shouldn't become a plutocracy. If people really want (say) pet customization, but I can throw another $500 in and want frilly tutus exclusive to the "huge" body type, why should I go to the front of the line or have any more weight thrown to what I want?

 

No, let's step well wide of this little minefield.

[PeregrineFalcon]

[plainguy]

38 minutes ago, Greycat said:

5 hours ago, Glacier Peak said:

Aside from the profit model arguments, there are a few other problems.

 

One, we don't have all the tools the original developers had. Sure, you can say "I want a new robot model," and hire someone who can create it and send a 3d model over. Now make it compatible with the game... We've gotten to where we can extract things and mix and match a bit. Creating completely from scratch, though?

 

And two, this shouldn't become a plutocracy. If people really want (say) pet customization, but I can throw another $500 in and want frilly tutus exclusive to the "huge" body type, why should I go to the front of the line or have any more weight thrown to what I want?

 

No, let's step well wide of this little minefield.

Look I am sure they can figure out the process on what the requirements are for lets say models. 
 

I never said he/she who pays the most gets what they want.. I never said you get to choose what you want based on your cash donations.. 
I clearly said the Developers determine what is possible. 
You are adding your own words and thoughts and making them my own.. Stick to the facts.. 

 

Maybe what you thought was of most importance is dead last based on the OPTIONS/CHOICES the developers gave you.. Again NOT YOUR specific wants and needs. 
Nothing says you must pay for the 4 items above the thing you are interested in.  
Again it is not mandatory. It VOLUNTARY..

Could they run servers on something else, could they get donated old servers ? Sure they could.. Could they not use AV or pay for it or any backup process, sure they could...
 
 

45 minutes ago, UltraAlt said:

 

As soon as you start paying someone, they become an employee/freelancer. Money exchanges hands and the government(s) step in; they want their piece-of-the-action, etc. and paperwork and possible legal engagement ensues which is all part of paying an individual for work that they do. 

 

Homecoming is doing fine.

We don't need to rush things (to 50 😛 aka "the end-game"). Enjoy the journey. Things have been DEVeloping nicely along the way. 

Is the server company, the lawyer an employee ? Do they have to pay taxes on this stuff ? No.. I help run a club in the police department, Every precinct has a club. They maintain the soda machines, the snack machines, they run picnics, parties.. ETC.. All tax exempt .. Just like this is.. 

They are not making a profit. They are paying someone else for services rendered.. Just like they paid the lawyer and the server company.. 
I never said anything about rushing anything.. Where did you get I was asking for some sort of Power Leveling service.. 

 

 

2 hours ago, arcane said:

Even if this were in bounds, the thought of paying players having an outsized impact on the direction of development sounds sketchy and icky and wrongish.

You don't know who is paying.. 
I never said pay for this thing to get it..

I think you are adding words and thoughts I never said or conveyed.  

They mention what is possible and then they have the community vote.. Each individual player that plays does not always pay.  Thus it donations.. 
So a non paying player gets to vote on ideas the Developers have that can be done but would take extra long time. 
Never did I say or post that someone Paying or being able to verify to pay gets more weight than someone who does not..

If the top vote was I want magic wands.. But you don't care about magic wands. Then don't click the option box that says I will DONATE funds to have magic wands outsourced. 

You make your donations as usual and it goes to server cost as usual. 

 

5 hours ago, Glacier Peak said:

On 9/26/2019 at 12:55 PM, Jimmy said:

We are also committed to continuing with our 100% free, not-for-profit, donation-driven model.

This is not-for-profit.. This is donations.. They are NOT making any money on this.. Just like they are not making any money on the server bill they pay.. They are hiring someone to maintain servers for them. They are paying for AV service, They are paying for email service, They are paying for digital documentation signing, They are paying a Lawyer..

How is paying for an Artist any different ? 
If you head is wrapped around, it is part of the game or a service for the game.. Then again I tell you so is the Server.. 
I can tell you and anyone else who thinks paying an artist is out of scope, is incorrect.. 

4 hours ago, TheZag said:

Going above cost to pay for extras is still a profit model and has a greater chance to incur the wrath of NC with a cease and desist letter.  I prefer the safer path.

No it isn't.. You are incorrect.  They are outsourcing the server, They are outsourcing services like DocuSign. Email service.. 
But I am pretty sure IF they were in doubt, they could just ask as they have communication with them and again They were giving permission to mention NCSoft.. I don't think NC Soft would bite there heads off. Its adults running a business, not some backyard kid stuff. 

You need to get your head out of the weeds of thinking if there is a benefit to actual game play there is some profit or benefit which breaks a not-for-profit.  That is ridiculous. 

 

It is amazing how some people add words that don't exist and then take a stance on those non existent words  and call them facts for a debate or disagreement. 
You might as well just call me racist and then debate or chastise me for being a racist. 

I am 100% positive my post does not say Pay money and YOU get to choose what you want.. I am 100% positive my post does not say make a profit..  

Further you do not have to zero out your account at the end of the month.. By the end of the Fiscal year you have to be zero. It would be unreasonable to run anything not-for-profit and have to zero out the balance every 30 days.. They just choose to do so because this model affords them the ability to do so. 
I am sure the server company gave them a pitch, You know if you take as little as a 12 month contract I can save you 10% off your monthly bill. But a contract would require a down payment. Which they don't have, unless out of the kindness if their own hearts they go, I will pay the agreed down payment because I got it like that. 
So they pay the higher cost because it just simpler for bookkeeping. 

I don't mind debating.. But don't add phantom wording and then say this is my stance.. That isn't fair. 

[AerialAssault]

Noticed quite a few threads around recently about adding more payment options into COX. Have you guys had a sudden windfall of cash I should know about? Why not donate it to me instead?

 

Disclaimer: I WILL waste it.

 

 

On topic, I think the devs are doing just fine without money being forced upon them. Let's not sour the pool with that most evil of things.

 

[Rudra]

1 hour ago, plainguy said:

Look I am sure they can figure out the process on what the requirements are for lets say models. 
 

I never said he/she who pays the most gets what they want.. I never said you get to choose what you want based on your cash donations.. 
I clearly said the Developers determine what is possible. 
You are adding your own words and thoughts and making them my own.. Stick to the facts.. 

 

Maybe what you thought was of most importance is dead last based on the OPTIONS/CHOICES the developers gave you.. Again NOT YOUR specific wants and needs. 
Nothing says you must pay for the 4 items above the thing you are interested in.  
Again it is not mandatory. It VOLUNTARY..

Could they run servers on something else, could they get donated old servers ? Sure they could.. Could they not use AV or pay for it or any backup process, sure they could...
 
 

Is the server company, the lawyer an employee ? Do they have to pay taxes on this stuff ? No.. I help run a club in the police department, Every precinct has a club. They maintain the soda machines, the snack machines, they run picnics, parties.. ETC.. All tax exempt .. Just like this is.. 

They are not making a profit. They are paying someone else for services rendered.. Just like they paid the lawyer and the server company.. 
I never said anything about rushing anything.. Where did you get I was asking for some sort of Power Leveling service.. 

 

 

You don't know who is paying.. 
I never said pay for this thing to get it..

I think you are adding words and thoughts I never said or conveyed.  

They mention what is possible and then they have the community vote.. Each individual player that plays does not always pay.  Thus it donations.. 
So a non paying player gets to vote on ideas the Developers have that can be done but would take extra long time. 
Never did I say or post that someone Paying or being able to verify to pay gets more weight than someone who does not..

If the top vote was I want magic wands.. But you don't care about magic wands. Then don't click the option box that says I will DONATE funds to have magic wands outsourced. 

You make your donations as usual and it goes to server cost as usual. 

 

This is not-for-profit.. This is donations.. They are NOT making any money on this.. Just like they are not making any money on the server bill they pay.. They are hiring someone to maintain servers for them. They are paying for AV service, They are paying for email service, They are paying for digital documentation signing, They are paying a Lawyer..

How is paying for an Artist any different ? 
If you head is wrapped around, it is part of the game or a service for the game.. Then again I tell you so is the Server.. 
I can tell you and anyone else who thinks paying an artist is out of scope, is incorrect.. 

No it isn't.. You are incorrect.  They are outsourcing the server, They are outsourcing services like DocuSign. Email service.. 
But I am pretty sure IF they were in doubt, they could just ask as they have communication with them and again They were giving permission to mention NCSoft.. I don't think NC Soft would bite there heads off. Its adults running a business, not some backyard kid stuff. 

You need to get your head out of the weeds of thinking if there is a benefit to actual game play there is some profit or benefit which breaks a not-for-profit.  That is ridiculous. 

 

It is amazing how some people add words that don't exist and then take a stance on those non existent words  and call them facts for a debate or disagreement. 
You might as well just call me racist and then debate or chastise me for being a racist. 

I am 100% positive my post does not say Pay money and YOU get to choose what you want.. I am 100% positive my post does not say make a profit..  

Further you do not have to zero out your account at the end of the month.. By the end of the Fiscal year you have to be zero. It would be unreasonable to run anything not-for-profit and have to zero out the balance every 30 days.. They just choose to do so because this model affords them the ability to do so. 
I am sure the server company gave them a pitch, You know if you take as little as a 12 month contract I can save you 10% off your monthly bill. But a contract would require a down payment. Which they don't have, unless out of the kindness if their own hearts they go, I will pay the agreed down payment because I got it like that. 
So they pay the higher cost because it just simpler for bookkeeping. 

I don't mind debating.. But don't add phantom wording and then say this is my stance.. That isn't fair. 

I think you are mixing a few things here. As far as I know, a Booster Club, or simply club as you put it, is an internal thing not reportable outside of the agency beyond non-operable morale functions and funding. They are not tracked on any agency budgetary document. I may be wrong, but that is how I remember it. Hiring contractors to perform operable work, such as making new models, is tracked on an agency's budgetary document and is reportable. So your comparison does not really work. Hiring a lawyer is more comparable, but still falls outside of an operational budget and is not an employee, whether contractor or otherwise. Hiring a modeler for the game would be an added operational expense, above and beyond what the game needs to run. That makes the volunteer Homecoming an operating company with employees, even if the employee is a contractor. I'm no expert, but from my time working unit finances, that is my understanding of it all.

 

The perception that a non-profit volunteer group is making a profit is sufficient cause to initiate litigation. Especially when that non-profit is operating under the sufferance of the company that actually owns the materials and intellectual properties utilized by the non-profit. During the litigation it can be proven the donations are not profit but are paying for other operational expenses, but that can still shut down the game before the litigation runs its course. I'm pretty sure the volunteers we have as devs can't afford a lawsuit from NCSoft.

 

When people start making donations towards a specific item, such as new power sets, new costumes, whatever, they can have the expectation that it will be prioritized based on how much funding it earned compared to others. This may or may not happen, but has happened often enough that you can't just write off other posts commenting on it.

 

NCSoft is a standard company. Meaning they are greedy, self-interested, and vindictive. I think you are under-estimating what they would be willing to do to Homecoming if HC accepts more donations than they absolutely need to operate.

Edited February 1, 2022 by Rudra
Edited to clarify first paragraph.

[UltraAlt]

3 hours ago, plainguy said:

Is the server company, the lawyer an employee ? Do they have to pay taxes on this stuff ? No.. I help run a club in the police department, Every precinct has a club. They maintain the soda machines, the snack machines, they run picnics, parties.. ETC.. All tax exempt .. Just like this is.. 

They are not making a profit. They are paying someone else for services rendered.. Just like they paid the lawyer and the server company.. 
I never said anything about rushing anything.. Where did you get I was asking for some sort of Power Leveling service.. 

 

When you pay for services through a company, it is different then having an actual employee or freelancer.

I guess they could pay for a company to do the (as your example) graphics. So if someone was working as a company (the lawyer as an example), they might could get around the taxes. 

 

I think you are also indicating here that all the people that are doing things for the club are actually volunteering and none of them are getting paid to work at the club. Is that correct?

 

I think that you are rushing it because the DEVs are and have been making changes to the game over time including graphical ones.

I was just using the power-leveling euphemism as related to rushing to the end-game being like trying to make changes to the game faster than what the DEVs are doing now.

I don't think anyone else is reading that as me indicating that you are asking for paid-power-leveling to be added to the game, but, around here, who can tell  ...

 

 

Edited February 1, 2022 by UltraAlt

[TheZag]

I did kinda put words in someones mouth but it was NC,  not you.  They still hold the rights for the game and if they feel the IP is being infringed on for profit and dont sue,  then they risk losing the rights to the Property.  

 

Im not sure why we should be calling you racist instead but im thinking maybe @GM Impervium should take a peek in here and make his own determination.

[UltraAlt]

3 hours ago, plainguy said:

I am 100% positive my post does not say Pay money and YOU get to choose what you want.. I am 100% positive my post does not say make a profit.

 

Your posts did not say that the DEVs would make a profit.

However, someone would be making a profit. This is where the most issue lies.

 

You didn't say anyone that each player playing would have to pay for whatever game improvements were being made as far as could tell.

You seem to be suggesting that players be allowed to donate additional funds toward a set programing project (some graphics for example).

 

What happens if someone is paid to do programming for the game and then just walk off with player donated money?

Would the donations be to a set "thing"?

 

What are the set things that you are looking for?

Mastermind pet customization?

 

Another server is already doing this. There is another thread about it.

Myself, I think that using character slots for pet customization is sort of a sloppy and information intensive way to handle it.

It would be cause much less hassle on every side to allow power customization (as it is already implemented) instead. 

We already see that character mirroring can work with the Controller pets. Make mirroring an option.

I've already posted somewhere my other ideas for mastermind customization, but swapping in Spectral Pirates for Ninja, Clockwork for Robots, Hellions/Outcast for Thugs, Circle of Thorns for Demons, (puking) Freakshow for zombies.

No additional graphics needed. Keep the animations and replace the costume. This is how weapon customization works.

 

I don't see a need to hire anyone to do this.

If the DEVs' vision takes the game in that direction, then they will take the game in that direction.

[UltraAlt]

18 minutes ago, TheZag said:

I did kinda put words in someones mouth but it was NC,  not you.  They still hold the rights for the game and if they feel the IP is being infringed on for profit and dont sue,  then they risk losing the rights to the Property.  

 

Im not sure why we should be calling you racist instead but im thinking maybe @GM Impervium should take a peek in here and make his own determination.

 

I think the GMs are getting dragged into things that they don't need to be bothered with.

If you are offended by what the players is saying, put them on ignore and you don't have to see what they are writing any more.

 

3 hours ago, plainguy said:

It is amazing how some people add words that don't exist and then take a stance on those non existent words  and call them facts for a debate or disagreement. 
You might as well just call me racist and then debate or chastise me for being a racist. 

 

The sentence has the same meaning if they had said "You might as well just call me duck and then debate or chastise me for being a duck."

The word "racist" in there might aggravate some, but I don't think it was intended to aggravate anyone.

 

I read it as "You might as well just call me a bad person and then debate or chastise me for being a bad person."

The sentence structure indicates that the poster believes that being a racist is a bad thing. I agree. Being a racist is a bad thing.
If that gets me hot-water for saying that, so be it. 

 

 

[SeraphimKensai]

Counterpoint to this suggestion: what if I don't like the thing you want (mastermind pet customization for an example) you pay to have them help get it done, but I pay more for the change to never occur or be drastically different than what you wanted.

 

Now you feel ripped off because you didn't get what you paid for.

 

Not that I'm personally independently wealthy, but there will always be someone out there that disagrees with you, and someone out there with more resources (disposable income, unless you're someone like Jeff Bezos or Elon Musk) than you have.

 

For that reasoning I can't support this, despite that you may have benevolent intentions.

[TheZag]

In my past experience,  including the use of racism as part of your counter point usually doesnt end well.  If he meant a duck or a bad person instead then i highly recommend going that route first.  And maybe he was replying to everyone at that point but it was after quoting me so im here scratching my head as to how the jump from cease and desist to might as well call someone a racist came from.

 

And a gm doesnt have to do something just because they were pinged.  But there us alot of forum to cover and its easier to stay informed if things turn southward by reading it in the first place.  I also cant un-ping him.

 

Im also more than happy to be incorrect about this.  Discuss away and ignore that i ever said anything.

[GM Impervium]

I'm pretty sure this isn't an avenue the HC team will be exploring.

 

It's great that people want more options to support the project, and getting more content is always a plus. However, most of the posters above have already pointed out why this isn't likely to happen. Additionally, it would set a bad precedent and make future potential volunteers not want to do so unless THEY get paid, or even current staff might start going "Heeeyyyy...".

 

So yeah, potential fustercluck all around.

[Shenanigunner]

5 hours ago, GM Impervium said:

So yeah, potential fustercluck all around.

 

Wrong game, as I'm sure you know. You have to get the Fustercluck grenade from Tiny Tina.

 

(Thumbs up is for the general sentiment, though. Bad road to start down.)

[TheZag]

6 hours ago, GM Impervium said:

fustercluck

 

Name about to be taken on all the servers and i dont get home for 3 hours 😞

[Wavicle]

No to plutocracy, but YES to continued donations, just let the devs decide what to do with it.

[Ghost]

1 hour ago, TheZag said:

 

Name about to be taken on all the servers and i dont get home for 3 hours 😞

Believe I already teamed with fustercluck on excelsior - but I could be wrong

[plainguy]

13 hours ago, Rudra said:

I think you are mixing a few things here. As far as I know, a Booster Club, or simply club as you put it, is an internal thing not reportable outside of the agency beyond non-operable morale functions and funding. They are not tracked on any agency budgetary document. I may be wrong, but that is how I remember it. Hiring contractors to perform operable work, such as making new models, is tracked on an agency's budgetary document and is reportable. So your comparison does not really work. Hiring a lawyer is more comparable, but still falls outside of an operational budget and is not an employee, whether contractor or otherwise. Hiring a modeler for the game would be an added operational expense, above and beyond what the game needs to run. That makes the volunteer Homecoming an operating company with employees, even if the employee is a contractor. I'm no expert, but from my time working unit finances, that is my understanding of it all.

 

The perception that a non-profit volunteer group is making a profit is sufficient cause to initiate litigation. Especially when that non-profit is operating under the sufferance of the company that actually owns the materials and intellectual properties utilized by the non-profit. During the litigation it can be proven the donations are not profit but are paying for other operational expenses, but that can still shut down the game before the litigation runs its course. I'm pretty sure the volunteers we have as devs can't afford a lawsuit from NCSoft.

 

When people start making donations towards a specific item, such as new power sets, new costumes, whatever, they can have the expectation that it will be prioritized based on how much funding it earned compared to others. This may or may not happen, but has happened often enough that you can't just write off other posts commenting on it.

 

NCSoft is a standard company. Meaning they are greedy, self-interested, and vindictive. I think you are under-estimating what they would be willing to do to Homecoming if HC accepts more donations than they absolutely need to operate.

We did have requirements for running these "clubs" We did have to file various documents city and state and file documents with internal affairs. 

I don't know in the sense, hiring someone to maintain your server on a monthly which spans into a year doesn't seem so different if not more of a hired employee than someone you use on a one off to do some art work/ animation for a month or so or how ever it long it takes to do the work. Mind you the artist is not being paid to do various tasks but one specific one,  EG create animation and art work for Mastermind Pet customization, again just using that as an example. But I don't think it matters what you pay someone to do as long as it is not a permeant work. 

We had to or were suggested as another example to look for minority run businesses when possible. When we couldn't or had some issue as the work or service we needed had to be specific, we would write a letter expressing why we needed to get this specific person and then show other legit business we contacts that could not provide the service and why. 
EG need 100 shirts for slain officer with all proceeds of sales going to widow/family of officer. This business though not minority owned was able to do the work at a reduced cost or free. Whereas Business A was charging 10 dollars and Business B was charging 7  dollars.

So in this sense if there is a requirement or restriction of having someone do multiple work during the year. Than you would alternate the work. Artist A for this and Artist B for that.  Imagine now Artist C knows Artist A. Imagine Artist C isn't as good as Artist A and knows it. There would be nothing wrong if we paid Artist C and Artist A actually sub-contracted Artist A to help do the work. EG further, Hey bud I got this work. You did it before, I want to learn and improve my skills can you teach me and help me do this and I will split this with you 50/50. For the sake of the debate they are close friends. So Artist C gets paid for the work and hands money over to Artist A. Even if we knew this, there would be nothing underhanded being done on our end. The whole not-for-profit is a sense of community.. So having help someone improve a skill fits within these bounds.

I would have friends that would call me and ask me do you know anyone who is a female and a minority that runs a business, because I have to buy 1000 cases of writeable CDs but it has to go through a female or minority owned business. I can even give them the site and contact (which was CDW) for where to order from and have it shipped directly to us ( police department) if they mark it up 2 dollars a case they can make 2k with just placing an order. The cool thing was that CDW understood and was willing to front the order as they knew the city was good for the funds and would write up the bill from the subcontractor and then send the profit to the sub-contractor. So the sub-contractor didn't have to fork over for example 6k. Again they understood small business might not have that kind of funds.

Again I think the issue here is many are thinking that services rendered for something in game is different than paying someone to maintain a server to host the game.. It is not. 

The simple rule of thumb is anyone on staff that runs the daily operation for not-for-profit making any sort of income or drawing any form of salary. If the answer is yes then you have an issue. Server company, Lawyer, email service, AV protection, Artist do not run the daily operations.. 

I can see an issue for example if you have VOLUNTEER artist that does work and now says wow I would live to get paid to do this, I really could use the money.. So paying the volunteer and then keeping that volunteer would be an issue. What would need to be done is the volunteer would have to give a letter of resignation and then can get paid but could not volunteer for 12 months after getting paid. Because then someone within the organization made a profit for the year. Again not-for-profit has no requirements to zero out the books every 30 days, it is a yearly thing. It's all about the Government getting taxes.. Nothing more and nothing less unfortunately.   
 

[plainguy]

12 hours ago, UltraAlt said:

 

Your posts did not say that the DEVs would make a profit.

However, someone would be making a profit. This is where the most issue lies.

 

You didn't say anyone that each player playing would have to pay for whatever game improvements were being made as far as could tell.

You seem to be suggesting that players be allowed to donate additional funds toward a set programing project (some graphics for example).

 

What happens if someone is paid to do programming for the game and then just walk off with player donated money?

Would the donations be to a set "thing"?

 

What are the set things that you are looking for?

Mastermind pet customization?

 

Another server is already doing this. There is another thread about it.

Myself, I think that using character slots for pet customization is sort of a sloppy and information intensive way to handle it.

It would be cause much less hassle on every side to allow power customization (as it is already implemented) instead. 

We already see that character mirroring can work with the Controller pets. Make mirroring an option.

I've already posted somewhere my other ideas for mastermind customization, but swapping in Spectral Pirates for Ninja, Clockwork for Robots, Hellions/Outcast for Thugs, Circle of Thorns for Demons, (puking) Freakshow for zombies.

No additional graphics needed. Keep the animations and replace the costume. This is how weapon customization works.

 

I don't see a need to hire anyone to do this.

If the DEVs' vision takes the game in that direction, then they will take the game in that direction.

EG means example.. I just used Mastermind Pet Customization because it is many understand in the use of the example and it "APPEARS" to be one of the more complex customizations. 
If I used we need more Assault rifle choices or Titan Weapon customizations it wouldn't be so impactful. 

Replace Mastermind Pet Customization with character costume customization if it sits better with you concept wise. 

Overall I am thinking the hard to tackle, time consuming work. They might have fleshed out the mechanics on how to make the customization but art behind it might be time consuming. 

[Rudra]

How is this thread not dead yet?

8 minutes ago, plainguy said:

We did have requirements for running these "clubs" We did have to file various documents city and state and file documents with internal affairs. 

I don't know in the sense, hiring someone to maintain your server on a monthly which spans into a year doesn't seem so different if not more of a hired employee than someone you use on a one off to do some art work/ animation for a month or so or how ever it long it takes to do the work. Mind you the artist is not being paid to do various tasks but one specific one,  EG create animation and art work for Mastermind Pet customization, again just using that as an example. But I don't think it matters what you pay someone to do as long as it is not a permeant work. 

We had to or were suggested as another example to look for minority run businesses when possible. When we couldn't or had some issue as the work or service we needed had to be specific, we would write a letter expressing why we needed to get this specific person and then show other legit business we contacts that could not provide the service and why. 
EG need 100 shirts for slain officer with all proceeds of sales going to widow/family of officer. This business though not minority owned was able to do the work at a reduced cost or free. Whereas Business A was charging 10 dollars and Business B was charging 7  dollars.

So in this sense if there is a requirement or restriction of having someone do multiple work during the year. Than you would alternate the work. Artist A for this and Artist B for that.  Imagine now Artist C knows Artist A. Imagine Artist C isn't as good as Artist A and knows it. There would be nothing wrong if we paid Artist C and Artist A actually sub-contracted Artist A to help do the work. EG further, Hey bud I got this work. You did it before, I want to learn and improve my skills can you teach me and help me do this and I will split this with you 50/50. For the sake of the debate they are close friends. So Artist C gets paid for the work and hands money over to Artist A. Even if we knew this, there would be nothing underhanded being done on our end. The whole not-for-profit is a sense of community.. So having help someone improve a skill fits within these bounds.

I would have friends that would call me and ask me do you know anyone who is a female and a minority that runs a business, because I have to buy 1000 cases of writeable CDs but it has to go through a female or minority owned business. I can even give them the site and contact (which was CDW) for where to order from and have it shipped directly to us ( police department) if they mark it up 2 dollars a case they can make 2k with just placing an order. The cool thing was that CDW understood and was willing to front the order as they knew the city was good for the funds and would write up the bill from the subcontractor and then send the profit to the sub-contractor. So the sub-contractor didn't have to fork over for example 6k. Again they understood small business might not have that kind of funds.

Again I think the issue here is many are thinking that services rendered for something in game is different than paying someone to maintain a server to host the game.. It is not. 

The simple rule of thumb is anyone on staff that runs the daily operation for not-for-profit making any sort of income or drawing any form of salary. If the answer is yes then you have an issue. Server company, Lawyer, email service, AV protection, Artist do not run the daily operations.. 

I can see an issue for example if you have VOLUNTEER artist that does work and now says wow I would live to get paid to do this, I really could use the money.. So paying the volunteer and then keeping that volunteer would be an issue. What would need to be done is the volunteer would have to give a letter of resignation and then can get paid but could not volunteer for 12 months after getting paid. Because then someone within the organization made a profit for the year. Again not-for-profit has no requirements to zero out the books every 30 days, it is a yearly thing. It's all about the Government getting taxes.. Nothing more and nothing less unfortunately.   
 

Anyway, I'm willing to bet what you file with the city, state, and Internal Affairs is to prove agency allocated funds are not being used to fund club activities, and your unit's budget document does not include club activities, purchases, or sales. So my statement still stands. Paying a server is no different than paying rent. It is not an employee, you are paying for access to something you need to operate. Paying someone to make new content however, is a different consideration. Now you have hired an employee regardless of long-term or short-term. Now the allowance for being a completely volunteer, unpaid team maintaining a pirate server with some degree of permission from the owning company is out the window. Now you are in effect a company pushing unlicensed, unowned, intellectual property. As a cop, you should understand what that means for the game. NCSoft tolerates Homecoming, but has not authorized it to function. Please, just let this thread die. If Homecoming ever becomes official, NCSoft signs off on us as being authorized as the devs are trying to do, THEN we can look at this suggestion.

[Rudra]

Now, if you know a 3D modeler or a programmer that was willing to do the work without pay and donate it to Homecoming, then please let the devs know. THAT should not pose any problems.