Let us keep toggles when form changing

[PhoenixV117]

Just this. A simple request, so many people want it.

but seriously. Why hasn’t this been implemented yet? Is there something preventing it in the code… or ?

[kiramon]

I don’t really care about toggles, but I’d like a “form carryover”— so you’d get Resistances carried over for a short time into your next form from Dwarf, Damage carry over bonus from Nova, and endurance carry over from

human or something.

this way you don’t instantly regret shifting out of dwarf into a hold, etc

[Vanden]

3 hours ago, PhoenixV117 said:

Why hasn’t this been implemented yet?

 

Because it’s possible to code the effects of the powers to suppress while shapeshifted, but not the endurance costs. That’s a lot more work to implement.

[Wavicle]

^ This.

If they implemented it now you would still be paying the end cost for all those toggles.

Then add on the fact that Light Form and Eclipse make the Damage Res toggles (mostly) superfluous.

That's a couple of reasons against it.

Solutions probably exist, but they may not be easy.

[SeraphimKensai]

1 hour ago, Vanden said:

 

Because it’s possible to code the effects of the powers to suppress while shapeshifted, but not the endurance costs. That’s a lot more work to implement.

The easy work around would be to increase the end mod gained in the forms to compensate to be essentially end neutral while suppressing the toggles end cost.

[Wavicle]

Just now, SeraphimKensai said:

The easy work around would be to increase the end mod gained in the forms to compensate to be essentially end neutral while suppressing the toggles end cost.

Which would make the forms overpowered for people who didn’t choose to leave the toggles on. Sorry, that’s probably not going to happen.

[Vanden]

4 minutes ago, SeraphimKensai said:

The easy work around would be to increase the end mod gained in the forms to compensate to be essentially end neutral while suppressing the toggles end cost.

 

What if you slot end reduction in your toggles? What if the player has accolades and set bonuses that increase maximum endurance?

Edited February 7, 2022 by Vanden

[kiramon]

15 minutes ago, Vanden said:

 

What if you slot end reduction in your toggles? What if the player has accolades and set bonuses that increase maximum endurance?

Maybe they could add an inherent to Dwarf/Nova that is basically +Recovery(Current End Drain/s(-1) - [End Drain/s of Form] 

lol

 

Edited February 7, 2022 by kiramon

[Microcosm]

I have basically stopped playing my kheldians until we get something like this and a fix for dark extraction fragility as form shifting is just not worth it and human form feels like it's missing too much on its own. Khelds have been my favorite AT since i9, but I just don't feel it anymore.

[arcane]

 

12 minutes ago, Microcosm said:

I have basically stopped playing my kheldians until we get something like this and a fix for dark extraction fragility as form shifting is just not worth it and human form feels like it's missing too much on its own. Khelds have been my favorite AT since i9, but I just don't feel it anymore.

Human form builds are fine.

Edited February 11, 2022 by arcane

[Microcosm]

5 minutes ago, arcane said:

 

Human form builds are fine.

K. I disagree. PB human feels much better, but WS does not to me. It would be ideal on either one to be able to play all the forms and not need to sit there retoggling all the things when back in human or just say screw it and ignore those powers entirely.

[aethereal]

Maybe make there be one toggle and the other powers add capabilities to it?

 

Edit: So, the toggle would still be turned off, but you'd just have a single toggle to turn back on when you resumed human form.

Edited February 12, 2022 by aethereal

[Bill Z Bubba]

Toggle armors are made useless due to form shifting.

 

Human clicks don't work if you have mez stacked on dwarf form and you shift down.

 

Toggleoff macros fail if you're in a form animation when you click them.

 

Limited power selection while in the forms forces constant form hopping just to have decently paced attack chains. Yes, it was even worse before the T1-T2 human blasts were made available to the forms.

 

But hey, at least cosmic balance buffs the kheldian now instead of just partially relieving the debuffs they once had for being solo. And they're sometimes fun to watch while high.

 

They were horribly designed at go live, damn near completely unplayable solo, (which I did anyway,) but they got better with the overhaul and with ample IO usage.

 

Here on HC, I've already built and deleted fully IOed and lvl 50 human only PB and WS. I rebuilt the PB as a triform and soloed her up into the 30s and have now run a couple TFs with SG mates. Ran her through another solo mission this morning. Her WS counterpart sits at lvl 7. They are still a horribly designed AT and they need a hell of a lot more of a ground up redesign than just a change to the toggles.

 

Personally, I'd dump the toggles completely. Make them passives that carry over to the forms. Do something else entirely with the E/N power since the T1 already covers it. Maybe a slottable sustain passive. Allow human form clicks to work in the forms. Yes, that means the black dwarf gets two mires and the white dwarf gets two heals. So what? Even a fully cranked dwarf can't come close to matching a tank just as a fully buffed nova ain't gettin close to being a blaster.

[ScarySai]

I don't see why armor/cloak/orbiting death just working while shapeshifted is an issue over suppression. New light form and eclipse already damage cap you among other things, why prevent other builds from chasing toggles if they want to give it a go?

 

At the very least, Orbiting Death and Shadow cloak should work, but that doesn't leave the peacebringers with much, so I'd be in favor of just letting them have it active. Why not, they're already paying for it in build slots + endurance, and eclipse/light form are already the best option for a very obvious reason. I don't see the issue with making the armors not joke picks for people that actually want to play khelds optimally.

 

You can't make a single compelling argument against it, really.

Edited February 14, 2022 by ScarySai

[Zeraphia]

I believe Kheldians were created to be "hybrid" archetypes that could do the damage of a blaster or be a pocket tanker when needed. Unfortunately, in today's world, this type of duality and pigeonholing themselves into resistance-based sets with almost no way to build defense has made them to be squishier than most Scrappers and a few Blaster builds. This problem has made people question if going full human form was a better idea than shifting at all. 

 

Kheldians were a flawed concept from conception, knowingly, they'd be outclassed no matter how you sliced the AT for balancing. 

 

As for the suggestion, it's a start but I truly think instead of being these flip-flop knockoff ATs they current pose as, they should have a more unique and interesting niche than what they're currently given.

[Super Atom]

Nice, it's time for yet another kheldian thread

 

sick man

 

rage thread next?

[ScarySai]

It's been reasonable so far, surprisingly.

Edited February 14, 2022 by ScarySai

[Bill Z Bubba]

1 minute ago, ScarySai said:

It's been reasonable so far, surprisingly.

 

If only reason ever got us anywhere.

[Rudra]

17 minutes ago, Zeraphia said:

I believe Kheldians were created to be "hybrid" archetypes that could do the damage of a blaster or be a pocket tanker when needed. Unfortunately, in today's world, this type of duality and pigeonholing themselves into resistance-based sets with almost no way to build defense has made them to be squishier than most Scrappers and a few Blaster builds. This problem has made people question if going full human form was a better idea than shifting at all. 

 

Kheldians were a flawed concept from conception, knowingly, they'd be outclassed no matter how you sliced the AT for balancing. 

 

As for the suggestion, it's a start but I truly think instead of being these flip-flop knockoff ATs they current pose as, they should have a more unique and interesting niche than what they're currently given.

The kheldians felt like a challenge AT when they were first released. I'm not saying they were or are, but they were and are the only ATs with mobs specifically designed to destroy them that would be encountered in every mission. Even when they first start out at level 1. Yes, they have a blaster form. Yes, they have a tanker form. So yes, they can fill either role if needed. As someone who quickly learned to hate kheldians when they were first released on Live though, I don't think they are meant to compete favorably with the more dedicated ATs. They are the Jack of all Trades yet Master of None AT.

[ScarySai]

One thing I like about khelds that you don't really get with other ATs, is how the skill and experience between players is very, very apparent just by watching how they play, and how they talk about their experiences.

Edited February 14, 2022 by ScarySai

[Zeraphia]

10 minutes ago, Rudra said:

They are the Jack of all Trades yet Master of None AT.

The problem is, they aren't even the Master of being the Master of None. There are things that fill the niche better than they do at the current moment with more team impact... even a lot of non-meta builds just perform noticeably better. I'm at a loss, I think WS suffers due to their reliance on an inconsistent form of single target dps via their essences, and PB's just have horrendous DPA's with less overall burst. It would be something if they were able to build to at least 35% S/L defense or something while shifting forms but getting to that breakpoint without toggles is very difficult and probably not worth sacrificing the things you'd need to achieve that. 

 

I really don't know. I guess granting them toggles would be a start. 

[Microcosm]

1 hour ago, Zeraphia said:

...

WS's are in a worse spot. They need the Dark Melee improvements that set got but they never did (so Soul Drain/Sunless Mire front loads its buff, Siphon Life/Essence Drain recharge reduced and damage increased, Midnight's Grasp/~Gravity Well damage frontloaded). They need the pets to not kamikaze since they're all range attacks and to be able to inherit Eclipse buffs like they once did or have any form of survival buff so they aren't the only non-nuke primary/secondary pet in the game with zero protection while also having the tax of being on a timer and needing a defeated enemy to summon. They need to not have most of their powers knock their enemies away from the pbaoe buffs they rely on in the name of gravity (lol). And they need toggle suppression. They could use other things as well, but they need these.

 

PBs just need toggle suppression. They could use other stuff, but the toggle suppression would make using the forms the AT is predicated on actually a good thing in general. So ya, toggle suppression for a start since they both need it.

[Sylapsis]

I wonder, what would the consequences be of setting the nova/dwarf form toggles endurance cost to 0, and allow human toggles to keep running (albeit suppressed)?

That would lower the endurance load a little bit, and and prevent having to retoggle (if you're into toggles).

Aaand... I guess it'd mean that Kheldians wouldn't drop forms if sapped to 0 endurance, either? Could be handwaved as their alternate shapes are as natural to them as their humanoid one, and not exhausting to maintain, maybe?

[Bill Z Bubba]

30 minutes ago, Sylapsis said:

I wonder, what would the consequences be of setting the nova/dwarf form toggles endurance cost to 0, and allow human toggles to keep running (albeit suppressed)?

That would lower the endurance load a little bit, and and prevent having to retoggle (if you're into toggles).

Aaand... I guess it'd mean that Kheldians wouldn't drop forms if sapped to 0 endurance, either? Could be handwaved as their alternate shapes are as natural to them as their humanoid one, and not exhausting to maintain, maybe?

 

Not a bad idea but if the forms cost zero end, they may have to remove the ability to slot endmod and I don't think I'd want to give up the ability to have 3 perfshifter CF+End in my builds.

[Microcosm]

5 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

Not a bad idea but if the forms cost zero end, they may have to remove the ability to slot endmod and I don't think I'd want to give up the ability to have 3 perfshifter CF+End in my builds.

Some sort of end drain protection in dwarf has also been a want for a long time, and at least this would keep you from getting detoggled out of it. But ya, preferable if you could keep the perf shifters as well. Maybe make them give the smallest possible +End buff so you can still slot those if you want. Not like it would come anywhere near being overpowered...