Combo Mechanics Thread

[Galaxy Brain]

So, the dreaded combo mechanic. The complicated, "gimmicky"... thing that a lot of sets seem to lean on nowadays. It's often lauded as something that is a negative, but why exactly is that? To find out what all the fuss is about I think we should first define them. 

 

A combo (short for combination) is a set of actions performed in sequence, usually with strict timing limitations, that yield a significant benefit or advantage. 

- Combo (Video Games), Wikipedia

 

So with this in mind, an actual "Combo" is as broad as: Using Attack 1, then Attack 2 soon after. A bit too broad for my tastes as otherwise Build Up + Attacks for 10s is a "combo mechanic". For our purposes we should change the wording a bit to "yielding a specific benefit or advantage". So for example, if Attack 1 to Attack 2 just did damage, but Attack 2 to Attack 1 did damage + X, that would be a combo mechanic. We see a lot of sets fit this definition, but in a few different categories.

 

 

Build and Spend: One of the more common versions, you perform X actions to gain (Points). You can then spend points on Y for bonuses. Some sets have an interesting dynamic where (Points) provide benefits aside from being ammo which can lead to some tactical play between "hold" and spend.

 

1. Savage Melee/Assault - Blood Frenzy: Using Savage Melee powers builds stacks of Blood Frenzy. Certain powers consume all stacks on use and get super-powered at max stacks.
2. Water Blast - Tidal Power: A builder/spender version of the combo mechanic, you use certain powers specifically to boost other ones later on. Uniquely some of the "spenders" are also "builders". 
3. Seismic Blast - Seismic Pressure: Accumulate Seismic Pressure until you proc Shockwaves, you then have access to a few super-versions of powers. 
4. Energy Melee/Assault - Energy Focus: Use Total Focus to gain Energy Focus, which can then be spent on several powers for bonus effects. 
5. Psionic Melee - Boggle/Insight: Firstly, Boggle has a bit of a hidden combo where Boggled enemies gain Insight much more effectively on hit. But mainly, Insight once gained unlocks bonus effects on several powers and can be spent for a super version of a power. 
6. Staff Fighting - Perfection: With each special stance, attacking builds up stacks of Perfection. Upon reaching 3 stacks, you can spend them for a super-version of certain powers.
7. Street Justice - Combo Level: As you fight you gain Combo Level stacks. Certain powers (Finishers) spend combo stacks for added effects.
8.  Stalkers - Assassin's Focus:  Attacking targets out of hide (not sure if in-hide counts off the top of my head) grants stacks of Assassin's focus. Each stack increases the crit chance of Assassin's Strike out of hide and is spent on use.

 

 

Mark and Exploit: Another somewhat common one is setting up a target which then has specific interactions from other powers, usually within the same set. With most all of these sets, you get some extra fun where multiple players can combo off each other if they share the sets.

 

1. Beam Rifle - Disintegrate: Tag an enemy with the Disintegrate effect, then further Beam Rifle powers have bonus effects on that target.
2. Electrical Blast - Shock: One of the newest examples, with the context of needing your target to have a certain criteria (low end) + only having the bonus on Elec Blast powers, this is in a similar boat to Beam Rifle.
3. Gravity Control - Impact: Using your single target hold on an enemy marks them, allowing Lift and Propel to proc significant bonus damage.
4. Temporal Manipulation / Time Manipulation - Accelerated / Delayed: Similar to beam, select an enemy to be Decelerated or yourself to be Accelerated and you get bonus effects.
5. Atomic Manipulation - Positron+Negatron interaction: combo moves from Group A and Group B to produce new effects on the target.
6. Radiation Melee/Assault - Contaminated: You can tag a foe with the contaminated effect. Other ST Rad Melee powers can then cause a small splash of damage off that target and spend the effect.

 

 

Specific Combos: Lastly, there are a few "specific" combos which do not fit the other two descriptions as easily. These are either literal A to B in sequence, or somewhat follow the rules of what a combo mechanic is without the other bits mentioned above.

 

1. Dual Blades - Quite literally *the* combo system, it's the closest we have in CoH to a traditional "combo string". Has Orange Circles.
2. Titan Weapons - Momentum: A slight stretch, but under our definition the momentum versions of powers / momentum-locked powers would be a Combo Mechanic as they are unlocked after specifically hitting an enemy with TW powers (or using Build Momentum...)
3. Martial Arts - Eagle's Claw: Quite possibly the only "strict" combo in the game, Eagles Claw provides a boost to Crit Rate or Damage depending on your AT that lasts only long enough to boost the very next attack you queue. Unlike similar powers in this list, this is a global boost so something like Eagle's Claw -> Fireball could get boosted crit when able.
4. Trick Arrow/Tactical Arrow - Oil Slick Arrow: A unique case, this is a very specific combo where the power morphs if you use specific damage types on it.
5. Energy Manipulation - Stun: Various powers can be used in conjunction to improve Stun specifically.

 

 

Counting out the doubled entries for stuff like Time/Temporal which have the "same" mechanic, we are looking at ~23 sets total (and 1 AT) off the top of my head that have some form of "combo mechanic" as described. Even then, a few of them are sort of stretching the definition! On the whole though, these are still quite a minority compared to the around ~110 power sets available in just primary/secondary picks. Doing some quick math, this still means 4/5 sets do not have any sort of "combo gimmick".

 

With this laid out, the question I have is why the dislike of them? A chunk of sets have combos sure, and a majority seem to be from melee sets (1 melee AT + 9 melee sets) which may skew some things, but boiled down the combos seem very straightforward except for on Dual Blades. You either have A to B, Mark A so B happens on them, or build up enough A to spend on B. DB stands out as it is A to B to C to D in a strict sense.

 

Is it due to it "stripping choices"? In a sense, combo mechanics do railroad you towards "the combo" for best effect (most of the time) which could be off-putting, but tbh is it any different than filling in gaps between your heavy hitters with smaller attacks? Comparing Fire Blast to Beam Rifle, you want to toss out Blaze as much as possible and in between you will shoot out whatever. With Beam, you have it a bit similar where you want to make sure your main target has Disintegrate at all times, and shoot attacks at your marked target in between applications.

 

A more apt example may be with a "build and spend" set vs not, such as comparing War Mace to Energy Melee. The former you always have all your tools and can swing wildly, whereas with the latter you have a chunk of tools locked behind Energy Focus. However, when you look at how and why you spend your resource things change a bit. For energy melee specifically, you can spend EF on either massive ST damage, a good AoE attack, or a utility option. Each option has specific uses depending on the situation much like how corresponding War Mace powers have best use cases. You would likely not use Mace's AoEs as much in a single target fight, much like how you likely would not default to the ST spender for Energy if you're surrounded, which in practice gives Mace similar "choices" to Energy despite not having a combo coercing them into a certain one directly.

 

Another factor is... well there's not much left to do without combos. Looking above, the vast majority of sets do not use combos and have one and done clicks (for the most part). There's only so many ways that you can really do that before it gets a little... same-y? X attack with Y secondary effect only has so many combinations before its just a reskin, and at that point what sets it apart mechanically from another set with similar attributes? If a new melee set were created, it'd have to have something special to stand out from the pack and given the overall mechanics of the game... it'd likely be some sort of combo mechanic as that is supported easily by the way players input actions.

 

Personally, I am neutral to them but think they are cool and spice up the sets that use them. What are your thoughts?

[Marshal_General]

I guess it depends on the combo system and your tolerance for it. I pretty much ignore contaminated on my rad melee tank, but find myself staring at the orange circle on a recharging attack wondering if it will go away before it recharges on my db tank.

[Bill Z Bubba]

On my db/nrg scrap, I don't even see the orange circles because I only use BF, SS, AS for ST and BF, SS, TE for AoE.

 

I would like to know why DB's combos no longer need to hit to function but StJ's system still requires a hit to build.

 

My hatred of multiple animations for a single attack is long stated. It's why I won't play TW. I still play NrgMelee because even with the long and short ET animations in play, it's so ridiculously over the top running Long-ET, TF, Short-ET, Moonbeam/Gloom, BS, repeat that I can't NOT play it.

 

Looking at the other sets in question... I either don't play them at all or as with DB, I just ignore the combos.

 

I'm probably just old and stuck in my ways. Get off my lawn.

[kiramon]

I actually like Water's comboing and how it changes what you want to push when -- i dislike the lock outs (both the water jet and the gaining) since it isnt intuitive nor "easy" to discern quickly in a fight. 

 

If they had like Red Circles when they weren't Contributing to any combo thatd be cool so you can more easily anticipate it, though you eventually do get a feel for it when you play long enough. But I think water does a good job with having you balance the extra effects, because they have boom and are not as "fire and forget" as some of the other powers (do you want your higher damage aoe, single target pew pew, etc)

 

I don't mind any of the random proc things (like Rad) that you basically just ignore and it's a bonus to the set that doesn't require thought. I dislike things like DBs where you have to go out of your way to do something for the bonus rather than letting you choose what's right for the moment (like Water)

 

[Bopper]

2 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Martial Arts - Eagle's Claw: Quite possibly the only "strict" combo in the game, Eagles Claw provides a boost to Crit Rate or Damage depending on your AT that lasts only long enough to boost the very next attack you queue. Unlike similar powers in this list, this is a global boost so something like Eagle's Claw -> Fireball could get boosted crit when able

For clarity, only Scrappers get the bonus crit chance (Stalkers get nothing special) and that crit chance is for other Martial Arts attacks only. So EC > FB would not be boosted for Scrappers.

 

As for Titan Weapons, I feel like that falls within the Builder/Spender category. However, instead of multiple builders leading to a single spender, it's one builder leading to a window of time where you can spend spend spend.

[arcane]

I typically ignore most combo effects listed and just let them play out except for:

 

- Water Blast: you need that Enhanced Water Jet to make the set tolerable at S/T damage.

 

- Energy Melee: what kind of subhuman troglodyte doesn’t use the Total Focus + Energy Transfer combo?

 

- Staff Fighting: these combo effects are pretty potent and the set needs any boon it can get its paws on.

 

- Beam Rifle: duh I’m gonna Disintegrate

 

- Electrical Blast: must trow Shocked procs.

 

- Titan Weapons: unfortunately impossible to ignore mechani

 

- Oil Slick Arrow: totes def obvi. I ignore some combos but that doesn’t mean I’m an animal FFS.

[Gobbledigook]

I stay away from combo/build and spend sets as much as i can. Some combo sets are better non combo. Mark and exploit are not so bad, still prefer not though.

 

I like to set my own rotations.

Edited February 7, 2022 by Gobbledegook

[oedipus_tex]

Well organized and presented post as always, Galaxy Brain. 

 

I'm not sure I'd include Gravity Control as a combo system. I get why it's listed there though.  I don't mind the "combo" aspects of the set as much as I mind the set not "talking to" a Dominator's intended source of damage, in the Assault set. If that's ever changed I could see myself playing more Gravity Dominators. 

 

Overall I don't mind combo systems in sets if they're aren't super intrusive. 

 

BTW two to add to the list are Time Manipulation and Nature Affinity, examples of Buff sets that have a combo mechanic. I don't necessarily mind the mechanic, but I also don't play to it.

[SuggestorK]

Well while dual blades as example is not bad.. it suffers if u have enemies that u can miss and thus miss out the whole mechanic cause until the power is recharged u have to start again from beginning.

 

Titan Weapons... it just way to slow for 1st Attack, if they replace the slow with reduced damage it would be way less clunky..., also again if u miss a hit.. u may lose momentum... its hairsplitting.

 

Its just some Mechanics dont get u into a fluid combat flow sometimes even described as scrapperlock 🙂 ,it just dont feel good although it may number wise be.. and that just about it.

Edited February 7, 2022 by SuggestorK

[arcane]

Dual Blades probably has the worst combo system overall because it requires you to chain powers that aren’t among your three highest DPA attacks, rendering the whole thing rather pointless to pursue. 

[Luminara]

2 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

the question I have is why the dislike of them?

 

Because many of them instill a sense of punishment.

 

I have a Savage/something scrapper.  I like the character, but I don't like trying to use Savage Melee because I have to watch the combo stacks and use them at 4 so I'm not arbitrarily penalized (using at 5 stacks results in loss of the ability to gain new stacks for a short period).  I'm not playing the game, I'm not watching the action, I'm not enjoying the animations, I'm not responding viscerally to the combat, I'm just juggling the combo mechanic and trying to get through that spawn without fucking up and being slapped on the wrist for not paying attention to the stacks.  If I hit 5, I have to slow down and wait until one or more drops, so I can use my big hitter without losing access to the mechanic entirely; or I have to suck it up and give up having stacks for the next X seconds.

 

I have better, and far more enjoyable, things to do with my time than stare at one icon on the screen.  I can do that without logging into the game.  I suspect that's true of most players.

 

On the flip side, my main is a Staff Melee brute, and I have no quibbles with the combo mechanic in that set.  I don't care if I "waste" it, or if I miss it, because I know it'll always come back after three more attacks.  I'm not obligated to stare at that one icon with Staff Melee because it's a fairly implemented combo mechanic with no penalty for failing to ignore the game in favor of that one icon.

[arcane]

Savage Melee is one where you can completely ignore the combo mechanic and still be extremely powerful though, so don’t get dislike of that type of mechanic. Literally just pretend it doesn’t exist.

Edited February 7, 2022 by arcane

[Bill Z Bubba]

4 minutes ago, Luminara said:

I have better, and far more enjoyable, things to do with my time than stare at one icon on the screen.  I can do that without logging into the game.  I suspect that's true of most players.

 

One more reason why claws will always be superior to savage.

 

Except on stalkers. C'mon, devs, just swap out stalker eviscerate for spin. It ain't rocket surgery.

[arcane]

10 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

One more reason why claws will always be superior to savage.

 

Except on stalkers. C'mon, devs, just swap out stalker eviscerate for spin. It ain't rocket surgery.

Apples and oranges. No comparison to Claws one way or another. Sure it will never have Claws S/T power, but you’ll never have proc bomb Savage Leap levels of AoE damage. Shrug.

[Bill Z Bubba]

11 minutes ago, arcane said:

Apples and oranges. No comparison to Claws one way or another. Sure it will never have Claws S/T power, but you’ll never have proc bomb Savage Leap levels of AoE damage. Shrug.

 

Spin recharges in 9.2 versus Leap's 40.

They use the same sets so same number of procs with Leap's higher base recharge improving the chances for procs.

Leap's radius is 15' vs Spin's 8'.

Leap's average damage per Mids is 121 vs spin's 41.

Same # targets hit but higher chance to hit that 10 with Leap.

 

So 3x the damage but 25% up as often? Going tricked out on recharge, spin drops to 2.4 secs, so comparable recharge on Leap drops it to 10 secs. Ratio stays the same.

 

Seems a wash to me.

 

[arcane]

8 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

Spin recharges in 9.2 versus Leap's 40.

They use the same sets so same number of procs with Leap's higher base recharge improving the chances for procs.

Leap's radius is 15' vs Spin's 8'.

Leap's average damage per Mids is 121 vs spin's 41.

Same # targets hit but higher chance to hit that 10 with Leap.

 

So 3x the damage but 25% up as often? Going tricked out on recharge, spin drops to 2.4 secs, so comparable recharge on Leap drops it to 10 secs. Ratio stays the same.

 

Seems a wash to me.

 

Think you forgot to account for the other AoE’s and the fact that you’re less likely to spam something as soon as it’s available if they’re on very low recharge.

 

I don’t have a solid picture of Savage by itself though because mine is a Rad/Savage/Fire tanker. Probably as much AoE damage as a /Fire Brute after all those proc bombed mini-nukes.

[Bill Z Bubba]

3 minutes ago, arcane said:

Think you forgot to account for the other AoE’s and the fact that you’re less likely to spam something as soon as it’s available if they’re on very low recharge.

 

Maybe? I run FU, Spin, Shockwave, repeat on my scrapper. (Fu, Focus, Spin, SW, repeat on the brutes and tanks.) And, no, I don't proc out any of them. Feels dirty and wrong. Even more so now that I ran that fire/rad/soul tank through Trapdoor.

Edited February 7, 2022 by Bill Z Bubba

[PeregrineFalcon]

A lot of people, including myself, have said that one of the things they like of City of Heroes combat is that it isn't fast paced and reflex driven. People who want that kind of combat can go play first person shooters or GW2 or Tera or something else.

 

Now imagine, if you will, a Water/Energy Blaster with the Sorcery pool. First I get the yellow ring popping up on the Sniper attack and on Arcane Bolt. And I have to remember the 1-2-3 Tidal Force combo. And I have to remember to use Boost Range and/or Power Boost to change Stun into the type of attack that I want.

 

Yeah. Forget all that nonsense.

 

Look, I don't want to log in to Homecoming a few years from now to find that a combo system, yellow ring and all, has been added to every power set and pool. I don't want to play super-wack-a-mole while multiple power sets/pools are lighting up different rings at different times for different reasons in my power trays.

 

That's a heck of a mini-game, but not one that I want to play.

[UltraAlt]

2 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

So, the dreaded combo mechanic.

 

uh, I don't dread it.

 

2 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

The complicated, "gimmicky"

 

Complicated because you are following a sequence for some benefit?

I think most players figure out a power rotation that works for them and they stick with that. To me that's pretty much a player's combo even if they don't have some extra combo benefit. They are benefiting by using powers in a certain rotation because that yields a benefit for them.

Combos have been around in games for a long time. I don't see them as being anything new.

 

2 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

It's often lauded as something that is a negative, but why exactly is that?

 

I don't know.

When you lauding something, you are praising it.

How is praising something bestowing negativity upon it?

 

2 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

To find out what all the fuss is about I think we should first define them.

 

Who is fussing about them?

oh, yes, the people that find them to be confusing.

On this, I can agree. People that don't understand combos can be confused by them.

They can set-up a rotation in their trays but the combo isn't set-up by them. It's predetermined by the game. One has to find out what the combos are, figure out which ones that one wants to use, and then set them up in their trays in an order that make sense.

 

**** Combos versus Charges ***

Combos are  a set sequence of actions that trigger a bonus. You follow a set sequence to achieve the goal.

Charge Powers are built up and then released. Any order of certain power will add to the charge pool that usually isn't accessible until it's full.

 

Dual Blades has combos - and, yes, they light up a circle to carry though the chain. I set-up my dual blade trays to work the combo system.

Tray 1 - power slice - ablating strike -  vengeful slice - sweeping strike - Follow - ?
Combos : 
Attack vitals :: ablating strike - vengeful slice - sweeping strike

 

Tray 2 - nimble slash - ablating strike - blinding feint - vengeful slice - follow - typhoons edge
Combos
Empower : nimble slash - ablating strike - blinding feint
Weaken : nimble slash - ablating strike - typhoons edge

The trays are set-up like a rotation.

 

Controllers get containment, so by setting up containment, a controller is actually using a combo.

Nothing as built-up over time, it happens immediately.

Use a power to set-up containment, use the benefit of containment until it dissipates. (same goes for the dual blades combo benefits)

 

This is why triggering build up, and then using all your high damage powers in a row before the power's duration ends is a combo. It's your own string of power activations that yield a benefit to you. You don't charge the build up other than using recharge time. 

 

Charge powers are build-up or activated by charging something (tidal, momentum, etc)

Obviously, you have listed many of the charging powers. These aren't combos.

Even blasters have charge powers.

Arcane blast is a charge power. You have a chance to charge it when you use other powers.

Using certain powers will add charges, but you don't have to use them in any set sequence. (in all actually, someone with a charge power probably does set-up a rotation of powers that they use - which kind of throw it back into being a combo because you have a predetermined set of actions that you do for a benefit. You're just using a combo to charge up.)

 

So let's go back to the dual blades tray set-up

Tray 1 - power slice - ablating strike -  vengeful slice - sweeping strike - Follow - ?
Combos : 
Attack vitals :: ablating strike - vengeful slice - sweeping strike

 

Tray 2 - nimble slash - ablating strike - blinding feint - vengeful slice - follow - typhoons edge
Combos
Empower : nimble slash - ablating strike - blinding feint
Weaken : nimble slash - ablating strike - typhoons edge

 

If you look at Tray 2, the sequence seems to make more sense. The first power recharges faster, than the 2nd, etc. It's even set up so that you alternately perform the two combos. When a combo is complete, trigger the vengeful slice if it is charged or switch to the other tray. 

You might even want to do tray 2 Empower combo, then switch to try 2 and perform the attack vitals combo, then switch back and do the weaken combo.

Power slice is in tray one for the same reason that vengeful slice is in tray 2. it's a power to use while your sequence is recharging.

 

I could make a bunch of trays with all the different combos in them, but that would make it overly complicated. 

Pick the combos you want to use and set-up your rotations to use them.

 

Now keep this in mind. I play with a Logitech controller that looks like a Playstation 2 controller. those tray slots 1-4 are the right face buttons. 5-6 are the right and left shoulder buttons. Slot 7 is my heal insp (down left face direction button). Slot 8 is my tray flip from tray 1 to tray 2 (up left face direction button). Slot nine fast travel (left stick button). Slot 10 slower travel powe (right stick button).

I alt jump a lot and my power trays are all basically set up the same. 1-4 are generally all single target attacks. 4 might be an cone attack. 5-6 are cones, AoE or PbAoE.

It's seeing how the game works as a whole and using that to set-up predetermined sequence of button presses that are only minorly changed by the difference of the relation of how long they take to recharge but with the powers sequenced by recharge time most of the time and by combo sequence when that really makes a difference, the key presses sequence differences are really minimal.

 

It's about taking time to organize.

If you don't take time to figure out what the combos are and set-up your tray to use them easily ..... of course, they are going to seem complicated and hard to deal with.

 

I'm a character conception player and I like to be able to jump characters on the fly ... sometimes to one I haven't played for a long time. If I didn't have organization in advance, this would make it very hard to do. I would have to relearn every character every time. I might have to regear myself to the nuances, but I have a basic set-up in advance.

 

Just a little bit of advance preparation makes combos make a lot more sense and fun to play.

[arcane]

1 minute ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

Maybe? I run FU, Spin, Shockwave, repeat on my scrapper. (Fu, Focus, Spin, SW, repeat on the brutes and tanks.) And, no, I don't proc out any of them. Feels dirty and wrong. Even more so now that I ran that fire/rad/soul tank through Trapdoor.

You wouldn’t want to proc bomb Claws stuff because Claws has trash proc rates. Savage Leap is a different animal.

 

How bout I leave the Claws and the DPS calcs to you and you leave the proc bomb submeta to me 😉

[Bill Z Bubba]

Just now, PeregrineFalcon said:

A lot of people, including myself, have said that one of the things they like of City of Heroes combat is that it isn't fast paced and reflex driven.

 

You can certainly play this game like that but then you're not being an efficient murderer of 1s and 0s if you do.

[Marshal_General]

The TW mechanic is like watching paint dry and turning the fan on for 5 seconds periodically.

[Bill Z Bubba]

3 minutes ago, arcane said:

How bout I leave the Claws and the DPS calcs to you and you leave the proc bomb submeta to me 😉

 

Oh believe me... if I could ignore the insanity, I would.

[arcane]

19 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

A lot of people, including myself, have said that one of the things they like of City of Heroes combat is that it isn't fast paced and reflex driven. People who want that kind of combat can go play first person shooters or GW2 or Tera or something else.

Well this goes a long way towards explaining why you think I’m talking out of my ass about this game’s low difficulty. Apparently we play different games 🧐

Edited February 7, 2022 by arcane

[Bopper]

34 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

So 3x the damage but 25% up as often? Going tricked out on recharge, spin drops to 2.4 secs, so comparable recharge on Leap drops it to 10 secs. Ratio stays the same

Keep in mind, if you're looking to do damage per cycle analysis, you need to factor in animation time as well. So 2.4s + 2.64s = Spin once every 5.04s. Savage Leap would be 10s + 1.32s, so once every 11.32s. So the ratios would not be the same with increased recharge.