Combo Mechanics Thread

[gamingglen]

On 2/23/2022 at 1:23 AM, ScarySai said:

Well I don't know what to tell you, Troo. If you don't like disintegration, either stop playing BR or deal with it. This isn't CO, powersets all have an identity.

 

bah. I want to go pew-pew-pew instead of rat-a-tat-tat. I want a laser rifle but hate the disintegration combo thingy. I rerolled my "future" BR character into an AR character. I'm still disappointed (doesn't help that Full Auto seems less than fulfilling for a T9).

[gamingglen]

12 minutes ago, Black Zot said:

 

Aaaaand this right here is why DB is trash tier even when you ignore everyone and their dog having lethal resist.  As convoluted as the combo system is, you'd expect some actual reward for pulling it off.  Instead you get a little text popup telling you "Congratulations, you pushed your buttons in an order the powers themselves don't bother explaining properly!  And your reward for that is JACK SHIT!"

 

The fact that you have to actively go digging for what effect that combo actually had is proof positive that the whole set, in its present state, is a waste of time and code.  If you're expected to press 3+ buttons in a specific sequence to get a bonus effect, that bonus better have some "wham" to it.

 

This kind of "wham"? 😄 

 

 

[Bill Z Bubba]

7 minutes ago, Black Zot said:

Aaaaand this right here is why DB is trash tier even when you ignore everyone and their dog having lethal resist.  As convoluted as the combo system is, you'd expect some actual reward for pulling it off.  Instead you get a little text popup telling you "Congratulations, you pushed your buttons in an order the powers themselves don't bother explaining properly!  And your reward for that is JACK SHIT!"

 

The fact that you have to actively go digging for what effect that combo actually had is proof positive that the whole set, in its present state, is a waste of time and code.  If you're expected to press 3+ buttons in a specific sequence to get a bonus effect, that bonus better have some "wham" to it.

 

I don't disagree on the combo side of it, but in the end game, lethal resists aren't as bad as Galaxy Brain's chart leads one to believe. I went scoping around with the power analyzer amongst all the enemy groups I normally face (carnies, CoT, DA Tsoo, Knives and BP) and they just aren't loaded up with lethal resists.

 

And if you do manage to crank enough recharge, as with my db/nrg scrapper, you end up with a triple stack of BF buff on SS in exactly the same way we get a triple stack of FU on Focus with claws. And you know I don't think claws sucks. Even if you're only doublestacking BF and going with BF-AS-SS-AS, AS can take the Achilles' resist debuff and you'll have two chances to keep it persistent. What's really odd about DB is that the highest DPA attack in the set, SS, is a cone.

[Galaxy Brain]

1 hour ago, gamingglen said:

 

bah. I want to go pew-pew-pew instead of rat-a-tat-tat. I want a laser rifle but hate the disintegration combo thingy. I rerolled my "future" BR character into an AR character. I'm still disappointed (doesn't help that Full Auto seems less than fulfilling for a T9).

Just curious on this one as Disintegrate is probably the most lax combo on the list with it being fire and forget. What don't you like about it?

 

Also, I have to agree that the combos DB has are kind of.... eh, but what about other spender sets like StJ?

[Peacemoon]

When it fits and its intuitive than I don't mind too much, but not a fan of complications just for complications sake.

 

The Gravity Control one I quite like. You know you've set up the extra damage by holding them and you don't have to track any icons or buffs.

[Bill Z Bubba]

16 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

but what about other spender sets like StJ?

 

Due to my recent foray into style over substance, I have a StJ/WP brute named Bantam Betty at 42. Being a boxer (granted, a dirty one since heavy blow is sometimes an elbow to the face) she doesn't have access to the powers using feet. Soooo, yea, no rib cracker, shin breaker or spinning strike. Skipping the three best powers in the set, yay!

 

But what it left me with was an easy setup to utilize the combo system.

 

IS-Boxing-HB-IS- (3 levels are up) then either sweeping cross or crushing uppercut. If I miss with either IS or HB, no combo buff on SC or CU but it just doesn't matter as my chain doesn't change.

 

I also have a StJ/Inv brute that will follow my normal max recharge/tight AF attack chain using the best attacks method but I've yet to sit down to see where she'll end up but it's very doubtful that I'll make any attempt to leverage the system there. It'll either happen on its own or it won't.

 

And that's the kind of combo system that makes sense. It shouldn't shoehorn you into any specific chain, ever. They absolutely should NOT be forcing players into sub-optimal chains that might also happen to look/flow like shit.

[Naraka]

2 hours ago, Black Zot said:

 

Aaaaand this right here is why DB is trash tier even when you ignore everyone and their dog having lethal resist.  As convoluted as the combo system is, you'd expect some actual reward for pulling it off.  Instead you get a little text popup telling you "Congratulations, you pushed your buttons in an order the powers themselves don't bother explaining properly!  And your reward for that is JACK SHIT!"

 

The fact that you have to actively go digging for what effect that combo actually had is proof positive that the whole set, in its present state, is a waste of time and code.  If you're expected to press 3+ buttons in a specific sequence to get a bonus effect, that bonus better have some "wham" to it.

Well, if you're used to steak and caviar, a bbq sandwich isn't going to be as fancy lol

[Troo]

6 hours ago, Bopper said:

didn't analyze Stalkers in 2020, but other AT versions also showed to have better performance with the new versus the old. Even your response to my analysis stated the new version shows better attack chain performance. 

Spoiler

https://forums.homecomingservers.com/topic/23365-focused-feedback-energy-melee-revamp/?do=findComment&comment=294665

 

 

Yes, this was when discussing the comparisons of the new options under consideration and areas of concern with the rework.

Don't confuse that with what the old Energy Melee did and how the old version would be definitely broken with one or two of the new changes.

The link also shows:

"It also helps show why it is broken to have a full time fast Energy Transfer (fET) exist with the new faster Total Focus (fTF), especially for Stalkers who would have BU > AS > fET > fTF > BS > fAS possibilities." (plus fast snipes)

 

Folks promoting that the new Energy Melee is better in all ways is simply false.

It can be better at AoE now and that had a cost.

It can also be dialed in to fit some attack chains and that had a cost.

The new EM is different. It has acceptable high performance without being too strong on performance builds. Previously it was too strong, hence the heavy nerf.

 

 

Edited February 28, 2022 by Troo

[KaizenSoze]

4 hours ago, Black Zot said:

 

Aaaaand this right here is why DB is trash tier even when you ignore everyone and their dog having lethal resist.  As convoluted as the combo system is, you'd expect some actual reward for pulling it off.  Instead you get a little text popup telling you "Congratulations, you pushed your buttons in an order the powers themselves don't bother explaining properly!  And your reward for that is JACK SHIT!"

 

The fact that you have to actively go digging for what effect that combo actually had is proof positive that the whole set, in its present state, is a waste of time and code.  If you're expected to press 3+ buttons in a specific sequence to get a bonus effect, that bonus better have some "wham" to it.

I would not go as far as to call it trash. My experiences with Dual Blades are post page 3, still they have been pretty underwhelming.

 

I have tried the stalker and scrapper versions on the beta server. Even all tricked out, it's just ok damage-wise.

 

I find the constant attention required to what combos are available and the constant adjustments to maximize the cones tiring.

 

Stalkers lose the Cone +DoT on the Attack Vitals chain even the wiki kind of implies it has a cone. City of data shows that it does not.

https://hcwiki.cityofheroes.dev/wiki/Dual_Blades

https://cod.uberguy.net./html/power.html?power=stalker_melee.dual_blades.special_1&at=stalker

 

Also, even though the ATO build proc helps. I dropped the Sweep combo for Empower, because both are dependent on Build up.

 

It does have decent AOE starting at level 26 with good two cones. Though one of the cones has a 3.3 second cast time.

[Troo]

 continued..

 

FYI:

Total Focus was skippable pre-nerf. (slow and superfluous)

Stuns helped manage targets.

Placate was used not just "held/slept targets".

 

6 hours ago, Bopper said:

BU > TF(hide) > ET(fast) > AS(fast) > Snipe/BS > ET(fast) > BS/EP > AS(fast)

Are we attacking AVs or Pylons, PvPing a Tank? Targets don't survive that long.

 

Reasonable recharge kept ET available every third attack if I remember correctly.

 

6 hours ago, Bopper said:

• I would assume the rotation that would be used was the one you provided me over a year ago
  • BU > ET(fast) > BS > TF > BS > EP > ET (1.6472 DPA, if gapless)

The new chain is 27.1% stronger than the i12 chain you provided me as an example last year. Even with less recharge, I could stretch that out with extra filler attacks and keep the DPA around 1.9+, which is still 15% stronger (before factoring in crits).

 

For attack chains I used pre-nerf we'd need to include multiple targets, drop Total Focus and include Stun, Air Superiority, & Placate.

What I provided was an example of what a player might do, simplified.

 

p.s. I appreciate your efforts. I also giggle a little when you talk about Stalker attack chains & tactics.

[Bopper]

5 minutes ago, Troo said:

Don't confuse that with what the old Energy Melee did and how the old version would be definitely broken with one or two of the new changes. (3 ETs / BU was a concern)

Nobody made those statements, though. The prior statements were not "new Energy Tranfer is objectively better", they were saying "new Energy Melee is objectively better". Then you said they were "making shit up".

 

They are not wrong to state new Energy Melee is objectively better because it is true, as there are metrics that can be used to support that (That's what objective means, as opinions don't dictate those results). There are other metrics that can support old Energy Melee is better. The only one I can think of is the utility of having a mag 4 stun in TF, then the Stun power itself. But the loss of being a ST stunner does not necessarily make the old Energy Melee better, it just shows one situation where it is better. This lost capability comes at the cost of having an AoE and the cost of having to use an Energy Focus token on Barrage to get a 2nd guaranteed stun (but you also get the added damage of Barrage and faster cast time of Barrage with that combo). 

 

If that TF+Stun combo is the metric you're using to say old Energy Melee was better, along with having a non-crit, 18.52 end cost, 20s cooldown, 1s cast time Energy Transfer, then state that upfront. If there are other reasons, state those as well. It'll be easier to compare than to hear "nuh-uh, old EM is better, you're lying". 

 

I opened it up last year, asking for anyone to give me a scenario where old EM is better than new EM, and nobody could find an example of how. Perhaps you know something that wasn't presented last year. If so, please share and I'll take a look. You said TF was skippable, maybe you have a rotation that doesn't use TF that I should look at. I'll happily compare it to what new EM has to offer. Just tell the rotation and the amount of recharge used (SOs were common back then, so I doubt it would be high). I'll limit my analysis to the same recharge, just so we can remove IO sets from the equation. Also, let me know which AT so I can factor in other aspects if they apply (inherents). Keep in mind, this is just to identify metrics (or measures of performance) that show where old EM shined, it likely won't change my assertion that new Energy Melee is objectively better overall.

[Bopper]

1 minute ago, Troo said:

Reasonable recharge kept ET available every third attack if I remember correctly.

If the 2 attacks in between both had 4s cast times, then maybe. On SOs, you were looking at 8-12s cooldown with Hasten

[Troo]

2 minutes ago, Bopper said:

Then you said they were "making shit up".

 

 

 

 

[Bopper]

2 minutes ago, Troo said:

 

 

 

 

I will have to say the crit for 2 focuses is the gimmick I would ignore. But if you want to ignore focus altogether and look at just slow ET, I can do that too. Something like ET(slow)>TF>BS>ET(slow)>EP>BS, perhaps. Might throw in a snipe as well.

[Troo]

12 minutes ago, Bopper said:

I will have to say the crit for 2 focuses is the gimmick I would ignore. But if you want to ignore focus altogether and look at just slow ET, I can do that too. Something like ET(slow)>TF>BS>ET(slow)>EP>BS, perhaps. Might throw in a snipe as well.

 

That's all I'm saying. As a whole the new Energy Melee "has acceptable high performance without being too strong on performance builds".

 

Start taking aspects away from the new Energy Melee set and still claim it is better.. even objectively that is poppycock.

 

Skip Total Focus now and it might be a below average to bad set.

 

Total Focus gates Energy Transfer from being overpowered. ET is limited by the activation time of the combined powers (which players can't change) versus recharge which can vary wildly..

 

Edited February 28, 2022 by Troo

[ScarySai]

4 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Also, I have to agree that the combos DB has are kind of.... eh, but what about other spender sets like StJ?

 

The only complaint I have about scrapper/tank/brute STJ is the lack of a two point builder. Makes the flow of an attack chain awkward. Compare to the stalker variant just feels infinitely better to play.

Edited February 28, 2022 by ScarySai

[Replacement]

45 minutes ago, Troo said:

The new EM is different. It has acceptable high performance without being too strong on performance builds. Previously it was too strong, hence the heavy nerf.

 

Damage over the course of the fight

Is not

the same as starting a fight with 1s cast time, scale 4.5 damage (that's AS-level damage).

 

This is why "revert the nerf" was never going to happen.  Believe it or not, you can make it better than pre-nerf and still avoid the thing that made a Brute bring all the burst advantages of a Stalker with none of the drawbacks.

 

Roles are a thing, and Assassin's Strike exists to tell you specifically who is allowed to have this role.

 

[Troo]

4 hours ago, Replacement said:

"revert the nerf" was never going to happen

 

it was never going to happen when adding AoE became a requirement.

 

that said, the level of global recharge available in the current game is problematic for the amount of burst damage.

• could have gone simple and lowered the activation time for TF and maybe swapped the activation times for BS & old ET.
  • might have worked just fine to minimize the corpse blasting which was a primary issue.
• could have made a non-combo mechanics version of EM with the two AoEs and no corpse blasting.. you know, the 'adjustments' that were needed.
  • (I've got money to put on which would be played more?)

 

4 hours ago, Replacement said:

Damage over the course of the fight

Is not

the same as starting a fight with 1s cast time, scale 4.5 damage (that's AS-level damage).

 

I agree, however this was Energy Melee's shtick, single target burst damage. Trying to sustain that burst damage over long periods came with penalties and could really hurt.

note: not much survived the bursts. between bursts was movement to the next targets.

 

regardless, forcing janky combo mechanics onto an existing power set was a choice.

the same results could have been achieved differently.

 

want to rework an existing power set to include a new combo mechanic.. make a new power set. seems pretty simple.

 

 

 

 

[Galaxy Brain]

34 minutes ago, Troo said:

regardless, forcing janky combo mechanics onto an existing power set was a choice.

Can you elaborate on how it's janky?

[biostem]

1 minute ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Can you elaborate on how it's janky?

I can't speak for Troo, but if I now have to rearrange the order I use powers in order to take advantage of a combo system, then it definitely messes with the flow, IMO.  

[Troo]

1 hour ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Can you elaborate on how it's janky?

 

sure (standard disclaimer: I may miss some stuff or get some incorrect. I will edit as needed.)

 

for Energy Melee there is a opportunity for a 2x effect on a critical for those ATs which can get a critical. the unreliable nature of that aspect can be janky.

 

if a player has an effect available it can be spent inadvertently if not paying attention, this could also be considered janky.

 

take EM Stalkers for example (there's a good bit going on.. not including what might be happening with their armor set, etc.):

• Assassin's Strike while hidden vs not hidden
• Assassin's Focus (which can stack 3x, each giving 33%?, so we want 3 right?)
• Energy Transfer while hidden vs not hidden
• Energy Focus (which can sometimes double activate and can be spent 3 ways)
• Total Focus while hidden vs not hidden
• Power Crash with Energy Focus vs without Energy Focus
• Energy Transfer with Energy Focus vs without Energy Focus
• Barrage with Energy Focus vs without Energy Focus
• an ATO proc that can make player hidden (4 or 5 ppm)
• an ATO with low chance to trigger Buildup

 

on Scrappers it's all about the crits..

but some things don't crit even though players will read elsewhere "All Scrapper melee attacks have a chance to land a Critical Hit for up to double damage. The higher the rank of the target, the greater the chance for a successful Critical Hit."

 

I could say 'janky' might be harsh.. because there were jankier versions proposed. I'd be willing to say 'a bit janky'. Really I just like saying the word janky.

 

Edited February 28, 2022 by Troo

[macskull]

6 hours ago, biostem said:

I can't speak for Troo, but if I now have to rearrange the order I use powers in order to take advantage of a combo system, then it definitely messes with the flow, IMO.  

I mean, you don't have to. Like multiple posters have said up-thread, you can ignore Energy Focus entirely and the set still performs better than it ever did. Basically, the set is a top-tier performer now and Energy Focus is a nice "sometimes" thing you can just ignore, or occasionally take advantage of.

5 hours ago, Troo said:

on Scrappers it's all about the crits..

but some things don't crit even though players will read elsewhere "All Scrapper melee attacks have a chance to land a Critical Hit for up to double damage. The higher the rank of the target, the greater the chance for a successful Critical Hit."

Every Scrapper/Stalker power which does not deal extra damage when it crits explicitly states this fact. Example: Concentrated Strike's power description which states "Concentrated Strike Criticals do not result in extra damage, instead they instantly recharge the Power Siphon [Build Up] power."

 

Also, re: Energy Melee - current cycle time is 12.67 seconds for Energy Transfer, down from 22.67 seconds pre-I27 (and 21 seconds pre-I12). If you happen to have a stack of Energy Focus that cycle time becomes 11 seconds. Oh, and those 11- and 12.67-second cycle times can also crit for bonus damage which simply didn't exist before and Energy Transfer didn't have its damage scale lowered despite its recharge time being cut in half. It's true that you can no longer drop an enemy while hidden with a 1-second activation time power, but like... why would you have been doing that in the first place? ET didn't crit from hide and you sure as hell weren't going to use Assassin's Strike on most things - what were you opening with, Bone Smasher? You also said you would probably skip old Total Focus and take Placate and Air Superiority... which really makes me wonder how you were playing a Stalker.

[ScarySai]

I thought we put this to bed years ago, but here we are again.

 

Energy is better than it ever was, this is not a debate.

Edited March 1, 2022 by ScarySai

[Troo]

9 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

I thought we put this to bed years ago, but here we are again.

 

Energy is better than it ever was, this is not a debate.

 

False

[macskull]

36 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

Energy is better than it ever was, this is not a debate.

I mean, I suppose it's a debate, in the sense that "gravity exists" is a debate.