Debuff Resistance/Status Protection power pool?

[Naraka]

1 minute ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

RoP provides 10 pts of mez protection to everything 1/3 of the time as a pool power pick.

 

The request would provide 3 pts of mez protection all the time as a pool power pick.

 

Are you stating that you think mez protection across all ATs should only be up some % of the time with "Heck, mez protection across all ATs shouldn't always be full coverage like it mostly is now?"

 

Earlier, you were talking about mez not being binary by explaining the protection mechanic. The protection mechanic is a part of the binary nature of the mez system. It's not about "mez or not mez" but "effect or not affected".

 

I'm saying mez should do *something* even if your protection is higher than the mag applied similarly that having protection *under* the mag applied doing something as a directive to make mez less of a light switch.

 

And bar that, maybe look for unique ideas to provide a more fluid solution to certain ATs and situations than just "now you don't get affected" or "it's useless for any practical use". I think Blaster's unique ability to use certain attacks while mezzed is an exceptional example with a superb conceptual link.

[Marbing]

11 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

The request would provide 3 pts of mez protection all the time as a pool power pick.

This is the key right here that a few people keep overlooking…. 3 pts. This isn’t mez immunity, this is just errant random one off mez protection.

 

I believe we even said it would simply be hold, stun, sleep too at some point…

[Bill Z Bubba]

1 minute ago, Naraka said:

I'm saying mez should do *something* even if your protection is higher than the mag applied similarly that having protection *under* the mag applied doing something as a directive to make mez less of a light switch.

 

I don't necessarily disagree but last I checked many mez powers also do damage so they already have something else going on.

[Naraka]

6 minutes ago, th0ughtGun said:

This is the key right here that a few people keep overlooking…. 3 pts. This isn’t mez immunity, this is just errant random one off mez protection.

 

I believe we even said it would simply be hold, stun, sleep too at some point…

So now your argument is the amount of protection is mostly useless in practical situations. Then why put it in?

[Marbing]

3 minutes ago, Naraka said:

So now your argument is the amount of protection is mostly useless in practical situations. Then why put it in?

Lol what? 😂 I’ve already explained why to put it in. Read up bro…

 

EDIT: Also, if you think that would be useless… then why are you fighting so hard to prevent it?

Edited February 15, 2022 by th0ughtGun

[Bopper]

1 hour ago, Zeraphia said:

I'm just going to try to go back to the main topic. To Hit Debuff and Regeneration Resistance can be very meh to a lot of characters (obviously not willpower/regen/bio), so I see how for a lot of characters it would be in the "yeah we could take it but there's better things I could've done" power pick to get in, and then the Defense Debuff would be a huge boon for characters that are softcapped but don't have DDR. It would be fair I think to do. 

 

I think a lot of it depends too on the values these resistances are given. 10-25% DDR can be quite substantial, especially if it's enhanceable, but only 5% unenhanceable would make it an insta-skip. Not entirely sure about the regen values. To Hit debuff resistance is pretty mediocre/useless because well just buffing tends to be better but it's a pre-req for the better things so I do see it as a fair tradeoff. 

 

I am not sure about the Status Effect Protection on this, I think somethings like maybe a mag 3 protection to stuns only or something would be nice and impactful but not gamebreaking or Rune of Protection levels of mitigation. 

 

I approve of the idea, but the numbers would be totally up to the developer discretion and I could see DDR being a huge make-or-break for the set.

I like the idea of enhanceable but not too strong. Something like 5% DDR (~8% if you enhance to ED). 

 

I wonder if making them toggles or autos would just lead to abuse of proc mules, though. Like, is the recovery resistance just going to be another PS proc slot, or regen resistance becoming a free panacea slot.

 

One way to combat that might be to make these powers clicks with 120s duration (60s cooldown, no recharge allowed, so its perma out of the box). It'll make them less mule options and instead require activations to have the benefits and reduces proc abuse

[Naraka]

26 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

I don't necessarily disagree but last I checked many mez powers also do damage so they already have something else going on.

Does the damage applied change? For controllers, they do have containment. I think Stalkers have higher crit on mezzed foes in PvP. 

 

Why not a pool that greatly increases resistance and Regen while mezzed instead? 

Edited February 15, 2022 by Naraka

[Bill Z Bubba]

16 minutes ago, Naraka said:

Does the damage applied change? For controllers, they do have containment. I think Stalkers hey higher crit on mezzed does in PvP. 

 

Why not a pool that greatly increases resistance and Regen while mezzed instead? 

 

For the first, from enemies? Not off the top of my head, no.

 

For the second, why? So that I might stay alive longer while doing nothing while mezzed? No thanks.

[Naraka]

1 minute ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

For the first, from enemies? Not off the top of my head, no.

 

For the second, why? So that I might stay alive longer while doing nothing while mezzed? No thanks.

 

Well, if you're a Blaster, you can be shooting.

[Bill Z Bubba]

7 minutes ago, Naraka said:

Well, if you're a Blaster, you can be shooting.

 

So a buff for blasters (who can already use 3 attacks while mezzed) while still being useless to the other ATs that can't get mez protection at all or at least until late game. No thanks.

 

But, hey, if nothing comes from any of this, we all still have access to the P2W mez protection. Hell, it's even cheap when you get 8 hours at lvl 1. Just make sure you've got some inf waiting in email instead of inspirations.

[Luminara]

52 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

However, Squishies at 50 can already solo, thanks to IO sets and/or Incarnate abilities. If squishies under 50 gain the ability to solo then I guess I should just retire my now worthless tank. And FF defender. And Controller. When you allow Blasters to solo all the time you basically destroy any reason for those characters to even exist.

 

Also, if squishies under 50 can solo then you've now removed all reason to team up for anything except a couple of Task Forces and iTrials. Not requiring people to team up is one thing. Not even giving them any reason to is a whole 'nother thing.

 

When I play Legionette, even with 10 points of Hold, Sleep and Stun protection, I'm Held, Slept and Stunned.  The teaming incentive provided by mez is still there.  Empowering the minority won't remove that incentive.  It won't make anyone useless or unwanted.  If the existing incentive proves to be insufficient, there are always other incentives that can be tweaked, modified, improved or added.

 

And there are plenty of other reasons for players to team already.  Merits, Incarnate rewards, special enhancements, more rapid inf* and XP generation, greater likelihood of valued drops... friendship.

 

Fear of change, fear of being unwanted, fear of being left behind is no way to live, and no way for a game's future to be decided.  We move forward, or we're just existing until the end comes, and nothing remarkable or worthwhile comes from a life, or a game, constrained by fear.

[Naraka]

1 hour ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

So a buff for blasters (who can already use 3 attacks while mezzed) while still being useless to the other ATs that can't get mez protection at all or at least until late game. No thanks.

 

But, hey, if nothing comes from any of this, we all still have access to the P2W mez protection. Hell, it's even cheap when you get 8 hours at lvl 1. Just make sure you've got some inf waiting in email instead of inspirations.

 

I figured, if I left breadcrumbs of an idea, maybe someone would follow. Giving other ATs unique attributes like Blaster gets but different, would be more interesting.

 

I'm not even against the OP's idea, I'm mostly just criticizing the prospect as being boring and one-dimensional....not the concept, mind you. If anything, I feel a set of passive powers with these abilities could have been wrapped into an updated version of non-inherent Fitness since it's a similar concept. But the prospect of it is merely "What does my build need? X, Y and Z? Cool, put it in a set." No unique mechanic or function that doesn't already exist, just more stuff to stack.

 

And people say "well it's only Mag 3..." but leave out that there are other additives like Acrobatics, RoP, etc to stack/alternate and it just ends up being why not just add this idea's various debuff resists to existing pool powers and/or add some mez protection to other new pools like Unleash Potential or Unrelenting?

 

All in all, it's just another push to get more stuff to stack to ignore more in-game mechanics without introducing new ones. Boring! 

Edited February 16, 2022 by Naraka

[PeregrineFalcon]

1 hour ago, Luminara said:

When I play Legionette, even with 10 points of Hold, Sleep and Stun protection, I'm Held, Slept and Stunned.

On live I had a Fire/Fire brute named Legionette. Now I know who stole my name.

 

How are you getting constantly held, slept and stunned? With 10 points? My blaster has a single KB protection IO, which provides only 4 points, and I get knocked maybe once a week. And that only by certain EBs/AVs.

 

1 hour ago, Luminara said:

Fear of change, fear of being unwanted, fear of being left behind is no way to live, and no way for a game's future to be decided.  We move forward, or we're just existing until the end comes, and nothing remarkable or worthwhile comes from a life, or a game, constrained by fear.

Agreed. But that's not what's happening here. Or at least not with me. I'm not afraid of change, when it's change for the better, but I'm against any more power creep. And that's what this is. Even if it's just Mag 3, it's still power creep. It's not "quality of life." A quality of life change is something that makes things nicer and less tedious for a player that doesn't have a game mechanic effect.

 

Adding something like this would be more power creep.

[Glacier Peak]

On 2/14/2022 at 5:42 PM, Luminara said:

Elude was originally a toggle.  And players couldn't attack when it was active.

Self-mezzed 😆 I can only think of one other power like that still in the game and one recently added: Rest and the new Geode power to a degree. 

[Luminara]

21 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

On live I had a Fire/Fire brute named Legionette. Now I know who stole my name.

 

You had five months to claim it before I picked it up.  Never letting it go now, I love it.  😛

 

21 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

How are you getting constantly held, slept and stunned? With 10 points?

 

Carnies, Malta, Rikti, Arachnos at +1/x8 solo.  They all have more than one critter with mez, and at x8, there can be two of each in a spawn.  Every mission I play with those enemies results in at least one instance of being mezzed, and I actively seek out missions with those enemies, so it's a regular occurrence.

 

42 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

Agreed. But that's not what's happening here. Or at least not with me. I'm not afraid of change, when it's change for the better, but I'm against any more power creep. And that's what this is. Even if it's just Mag 3, it's still power creep. It's not "quality of life." A quality of life change is something that makes things nicer and less tedious for a player that doesn't have a game mechanic effect.

 

Adding something like this would be more power creep.

 

Power creep is inevitable in any game involving improvement to the character.  Holding back a small percentage of characters doesn't prevent power creep, or make the game more challenging for those who have already crept far above that small percentage's capabilities, it just punishes the minority unnecessarily.

 

And the HC team is addressing power creep right now, creating and adjusting content to provide challenges for the creepiest creepers.  That minority should be lifted up to the same level as everyone else so they can participate in the creepy content at the majority's level, not pushed down as a justification for holding power creep at bay.  That ship sailed as soon as one person level up to 2 on launch day, it's not coming back.

[Koopak]

Forgive me if these points have been made but its late and they wont let me sleep till I get this out and im not killing my sleep schedule to read the other 4 pages.

 

2-4 mez protect for a 2-3 power picks and a pool doesnt even begin to be a power creep problem imo. The ATs who would want this hypothetical power ( blaster, defender, controller, corrupter, dominator, and mastermind ) are also ATs that traditionally dump 3-4 pools and 5-6 power picks buffing their defense. That means they cant take this for free or even cheap.

 

further id argue one of the main reasons to build defense IS mezes, you cant be mezed if you arent hit. This would trade durability for a guarantee that a single random boss mez doesnt stop you from playing the game. But you are still vulnerable to multiezes, say when soloing, thus in some contexts defense will still be better.

 

and further still, with enough mez protection to not be afraid of random acts of hold you might consider a different destiny from clareon for once. If you take clareon this power is near useless at high level after all, but if you take the risk of being mezable, but not unprotected you can swap to something more intresting.

 

I really think this mez pool power has merit, in fact I think the whole pool does and its a shame the diacussion has avoided the impacts of debuff protection in favor of debate over if mez protect for squishies is power creep.

 

personally I think having bits of debuff resist available would be great for allowing players to pay in potential power for the ability to blunt crippling issues such as seta that are easily sapped or defense cascaded into uselessness. As long as the values are kept in the 30% ish range so they dont remove the risk but reduce it.

Edited February 16, 2022 by Koopak

[Haijinx]

SOA/Widow inherent has this sort of weak Status protection built in.   

 

Wonder how this would work if this was just given to everyone as an inherent. 

 

Then of course you'd need to do something with the Veat inherent of course.  But you'd probably need that anyway if you increased general squishy Status protection.

[Marbing]

4 hours ago, Koopak said:

2-4 mez protect for a 2-3 power picks and a pool doesnt even begin to be a power creep problem imo. The ATs who would want this hypothetical power ( blaster, defender, controller, corrupter, dominator, and mastermind ) are also ATs that traditionally dump 3-4 pools and 5-6 power picks buffing their defense. That means they cant take this for free or even cheap.

This is exactly what I’ve been saying the entire time. Thank you for speaking up you may have said it better than me! 😂 

[kiramon]

3 hours ago, Haijinx said:

SOA/Widow inherent has this sort of weak Status protection built in.   

 

Wonder how this would work if this was just given to everyone as an inherent. 

 

Then of course you'd need to do something with the Veat inherent of course.  But you'd probably need that anyway if you increased general squishy Status protection.

I thought it was just regen/recovery

[Doomguide2005]

2 hours ago, kiramon said:

I thought it was just regen/recovery

It is.

@HaijinxI believe is confusing the Wolf/Bane/Crab lvl 1 auto power with or as part of their inherent.  It does provide low level amounts of status protection and resistances.  Exact details vary a bit depending which soldier type you are discussing.

 

PS Edit:  Widows/Forts have different lvl 1 powers and lack this status protection and resistances.

Edited February 16, 2022 by Doomguide2005

[Haijinx]

7 hours ago, Doomguide2005 said:

It is.

@HaijinxI believe is confusing the Wolf/Bane/Crab lvl 1 auto power with or as part of their inherent.  It does provide low level amounts of status protection and resistances.  Exact details vary a bit depending which soldier type you are discussing.

 

PS Edit:  Widows/Forts have different lvl 1 powers and lack this status protection and resistances.

 

 

That's it.  Thank you.  And yes that power.   

 

Widows must get something similair since after you hit a wakie you basically can toggle up right away. 

[Doomguide2005]

1 hour ago, Haijinx said:

 

 

That's it.  Thank you.  And yes that power.   

 

Widows must get something similair since after you hit a wakie you basically can toggle up right away. 

They do but it comes a bit later with --> Teamwork > 10th Indomitable Will, their Leadership type toggles and > 22nd Foresight.

 

Edit:  So I should have phrased/clarified the Widows/Forts don't get protection and resistances a bit differently.  They don't get theirs at lvl 1 and have to choose the powers that provide mez protection and resistances later in the build.

Edited February 17, 2022 by Doomguide2005

[PeregrineFalcon]

On 2/15/2022 at 5:56 PM, Luminara said:

You had five months to claim it before I picked it up.  Never letting it go now, I love it.  😛

 🤬   (j/k)

 

On 2/15/2022 at 5:56 PM, Luminara said:

Carnies, Malta, Rikti, Arachnos at +1/x8 solo.  They all have more than one critter with mez, and at x8, there can be two of each in a spawn.  Every mission I play with those enemies results in at least one instance of being mezzed, and I actively seek out missions with those enemies, so it's a regular occurrence.

Ok, so the problem isn't that your character doesn't have enough mez protection. The problem is that you're soloing above your weight class. You understand that, right?

 

Sorry, you don't get to use "I can't handle a mission difficulty specifically designed for 8 people while I'm solo!" as an excuse to buff your powerset or AT. Power creep may be inevitable, but that doesn't mean that we have accelerate it on purpose.

 

I wonder how many people in this thread arguing for this solo on anything under x8, or even play the game with other players.

 

Am I the only person on this forum that actually uses SO? That never solos on +4 x8? That actually teams up with friends who also only ever have SOs (or maybe a Performance Shifter End proc, but if I give it to them)?

 

I see a lot of the folks in this thread in other threads complaining about any character that can't solo at +4 x8, soloing GMs, soloing Lord Recluse, etc. I honestly think that the point of view of the 100 or so people that regularly post on this forum is very far removed from the vast majority of people who actually play this game.

[Rudra]

As someone who plays solo 5 of 7 days a week, at +0/x0(x1) with most of my characters, I don't really see the problem with mezzes. Yes, I play at a very low difficulty compared to almost every other poster I've seen on the forums. Regardless of whether I'm on a corruptor, a blaster, or the odd dominator I bother making, I don't really have a problem with mezzes beyond the need to be careful and use some forethought. The blaster having the easiest time of the three in dealing with it. (Thank you, unmezzable T1 and T2 attacks.)

 

I do have to admit though, there are times when my brutes at +0/x1 get mezzed. Typically because it is a Tsoo mission and I just got smacked by 4 Green Ink Men. Aside from the brief stun though, they aren't a problem. So I don't really see a mez problem. My corruptor got held and is in dire straits? If I'm a flier, I'm typically high enough that I'll survive until I recover. (Unless, you know, Malta.) I'm not a flier? I'll still typically survive long enough for the mez to wear off so I can get away to recover and plot my next attack. (Unless, you know, Malta. Or sometimes Carnies.)

 

I don't really see a problem with the set as proposed as long as it is weak protection or only gives resists so the mezzes still apply. However, I also still don't see a need for it.

 

Edit: And by weak, I mean Mag 1, maybe Mag 2. Enough to fend off a lone Fungoid minion's mez attack, but definitely not a boss.

Edited February 17, 2022 by Rudra

[Naraka]

1 hour ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

 🤬

Am I the only person on this forum that actually uses SO? 

 

Yes.

 

On the other questions, no.

 

I don't see how people use SOs at all above lvl 25. But if you use only SOs, I guess we all have our odd traits. Like, I don't typically level past lvl 45 and will lock my characters at a lower level or only solo with anything above that. Teaming at lvl45+ is boring.

 

Soloing prior to lvl 35 isn't usually possible at +4/x8 but I hear certain build can. But I'm a proponent of holes and vulnerabilities. If you're a tank and you can get affected by mez at +4/x8, that just means the system works. But are actually affected by mez? Or are you affected by +4/x8 spawns? There is a difference...

Edited February 18, 2022 by Naraka