Issue 27 Page 4 - The End of Procs

[macskull]

54 minutes ago, oedipus_tex said:

Hey there, prompted by your comment, I took a deeper look at exactly how this functions. It turns out we are both correct. Each power in Super Reflexes and perhaps other armors has two separate attributes, one for PVP maps and one for non-PVP maps. In the in-game readouts, its not obvious that its actually being controlled by two different attribute mods, one of which gets suppressed depending on what type of map you're on, but that's how it works under the hood.

Pretty much every non-offensive toggle power in the game has separate attributes depending on whether you're on a PvP map or not. Powers do not suppress while mezzed in PvP, only in PvE. The same powers which detoggle when mezzed in PvE will detoggle in PvP as well.

54 minutes ago, oedipus_tex said:

This one suppresses on PVP maps or if you are Stunned, Held, or Slept:

 

This one suppresses on non-PVP maps and like you mentioned doesn't suppress on mezz.

You've got those backwards, for the first image the game is basically saying "these attributes are in effect if you're not on a PvP map" and "these attributes are suppressed while mezzed" and for the second image the game is basically saying "these attributes are in effect if you're on a PvP map and whether you're mezzed is irrelevant."

54 minutes ago, oedipus_tex said:

Interestingly, each references different particle effects. I don't know enough about how powers work in PVP to explain why, perhaps its because players aren't allowed to "hide" their armors with custom PFX in PVP? Interesting none the less.

Some powers with minFX options explicitly disable minFX in PvP environments, which makes it harder for players to hide what powers they're running and makes it easier for an opponent with a keen eye and good situational awareness to see what they're up against.

Edited February 25, 2022 by macskull

[oedipus_tex]

37 minutes ago, macskull said:

You've got those backwards, for the first image the game is basically saying "these attributes are in effect if you're not on a PvP map" and "these attributes are suppressed while mezzed" and for the second image the game is basically saying "these attributes are in effect if you're on a PvP map and whether you're mezzed is irrelevant."

 

 

We seem to be in a disagreement about what the word "suppression" means. I know sometimes the word is used to mean the overarching "suppression ruleset" that powers often follow. I'm using the term more generally, because as it turn out the suppression rules are not an actual system, just a design standard applied to each individual power.  

 

For an AttribMod to be applied, the conditions of the reverse Polish notation statement in the Requires field have to evaluate to true. If the statement says "IsPVPMap?" it will evaluate to True when the player is on a PVP map. If the Requires statement does not evaluate to true, the AttributeMod is suppressed/ignored/does not apply/however you wish to describe it. 

 

The Requires field is used to suppress many different kinds of effects when there are conditions that could potentially suppress them from firing. Examples are Containment, Scourge, Domination, Critical Hit, many combo mechanics, whether the target is a critter or player, and a number of other considerations. Maybe some folks would prefer not to use the word "suppress" here. However, like I illustrated with the Requires conditions for Cauterizing Aura, the Requires field is used sometimes used instead of the CancelEvents field we normally associate with "suppression" when the conditions are complex (in Cauterizing Aura's case, it's because its a power that both heals/recoveries the caster and hurts the enemy; only the hurting the enemy portion suppresses).

 

 The bigger picture idea is that the developer has individualized control over which AttribMods suppress under which conditions, and there is no global piece of code that dictates this.

Edited February 25, 2022 by oedipus_tex

[macskull]

21 minutes ago, oedipus_tex said:

We seem to be in a disagreement about what the word "suppression" means.

I'm defining "suppression" as "the power in question is active but provides no benefit" since that's consistent with the way the word was used in the patch notes for Issue 13 (quoted below). After re-reading your post I see we are saying the same thing though.

 

Quote

All Player defensive Toggle Powers should now "suppress" when you are Held, Stunned or Slept instead of shutting off. The toggles have limited or no functionality when in this state. If you are held while flying, for instance, if the power which held you does not also have a -Fly function, you will remain in the air. Status protection powers still provide Hold, Sleep and Stun protection, even while other defenses are suppressed.

 

[oedipus_tex]

22 minutes ago, macskull said:

I'm defining "suppression" as "the power in question is active but provides no benefit" since that's consistent with the way the word was used in the patch notes for Issue 13 (quoted below). After re-reading your post I see we are saying the same thing though.

 

 

 

 

Yes I think we are saying close to the same thing. 🙂 I appreciate that you are using careful language and referring to "suppression" in the sense the developers often used that term.

 

To clarify on that i13 developer's note, as far as I know no toggle power suppresses on mezz.*  What actually suppresses is the individual AttribMods of the power. I understand why they explained it that way, and in a nutshell it's basically true. It's only when you look at how actual powers operate that you can see that the developer has individualized control over each sub-aspect of the power. The "suppression system" only "exists" as a guiding principal.

 

Some powers have AttribMods that don't suppress on mezz, like some (all? I haven't looked at every single one) of the Recovery, Regen, Absorb or Heal mods in Blaster sustains. Also, the "suppression system" is technically little different from the Containment, Scourge, Domination etc "systems." It may be better to think of them as design standards rather than actual mechanics. The big idea being that powers which previous teams considered "offensive powers" like Arctic Air or Choking Cloud could be reclassified and made to follow the "defensive power guidelines" if that was the new paradigm.  

 

 

[*To get super technical, there are probably a few actual toggles that "suppress" by using the TargetRequires or ActivationRequires or field at the Power level to prevent the effects from collecting targets or being clicked. Like if you really look at Hibernate, there's stuff there at the power level]

Edited February 25, 2022 by oedipus_tex

[Myrmidon]

On 2/22/2022 at 2:25 PM, Snarky said:

If the DEVS put something that touches their precious on BETA you will hear a baby chorus like the tabernacle choir

Don’t try to jinx my fun.

[Myrmidon]

On 2/22/2022 at 3:50 PM, ScarySai said:

My proposal: Leave them alone, they allow otherwise underperforming sets to thrive, and HC realistically doesn't have the resources to 'fix' the terribad sets that are only propped up by procs in a timely manner.

I have to agree with Sai because of this right here.

[Peacemoon]

Procs are problematic but there are some trade offs to using too many of them already. I personally usually prefer the set bonuses and the built in end redux you often get from them.

Procs were changed once to guarantee that they fire on long cool-down abilities, so that’s probably the only bit worth looking at.

 

Having said that I think the devs would be better off focusing on the underloved powersets and ATs in the game, and other feedback we’ve given before back when we had weekly discussion posts on different topics. They generated some great ideas.

[Marshal_General]

Yeah for my next melee character, I plan on using Kinetic Melee which really needs looking at, but to make it 'work', I plan on proc'ing the ever living hell out of the attacks, but in order to do that I need an armor set that doesn't need IO set bonuses from the melee set in order to do what it was designed for. That pretty much means SR for the most part.

 

I am pretty much giving up a lot of set bonuses and the idea of using a different armor set in order to make KM 'work'.

[Lockpick]

My take is that procs are fine and choice is good. 

[Pzn]

3 hours ago, Marshal_General said:

Yeah for my next melee character, I plan on using Kinetic Melee which really needs looking at, but to make it 'work', I plan on proc'ing the ever living hell out of the attacks, but in order to do that I need an armor set that doesn't need IO set bonuses from the melee set in order to do what it was designed for. That pretty much means SR for the most part.

 

I am pretty much giving up a lot of set bonuses and the idea of using a different armor set in order to make KM 'work'.

Energy Aura is good for similar reasons and you can rely on energize to discount your endurance on proc'd stuff.  You can't beat the DDR and easy defense with SR but the end management is a good tradeoff.

[Troo]

On 2/26/2022 at 11:22 PM, Myrmidon said:

I have to agree with Sai because of this right here.

 

Do you feel the same about the specific outlier powers like Irradiated Ground and Burn? 

[ScarySai]

I don't particularly care as long as burn's patch damage is buffed for non-brutes/tanks. It's pitiful even on damage capped blasters, and they don't have taunt keeping things in it.

 

IG's definitely something I couldn't really argue against if it got hit, though I'm not sure of it's performance without procs. I don't really play rad melee.

 

In both cases, if they just nerf it and don't touch anything else, then I'm opposed to it. At the end of the day, burn being broken does not really impact the overall balance of the game, nor does it harm my experience when I team with some fire triad. In a game with as many disfunctrional powersets as CoH, priority should be on bringing the lowest sets up rather than wasting dev time on overhauls they are not prepared for.

 

Anyone who sets out to 'balance CoH' is embarking on a fool's errand, whether procs exist or not. The best possible course is to make every existing powerset not feel like garbage, and add more, harder content. Relentless ASF has been a resounding success, I'd say, in terms of introducing difficulty to the current meta.

Edited March 1, 2022 by ScarySai

[Myrmidon]

On 2/28/2022 at 5:08 PM, Troo said:

 

Do you feel the same about the specific outlier powers like Irradiated Ground and Burn? 

In regards to farming, actual gameplay or both?

[Bill Z Bubba]

11 hours ago, Myrmidon said:

In regards to farming, actual gameplay or both?

 

Since we can't have one without the other, (meaning, the powers work the same way in both,) both.

[Cancrusher]

Quote

Anyone who sets out to 'balance CoH' is embarking on a fool's errand, whether procs exist or not. The best possible course is to make every existing powerset not feel like garbage, and add more, harder content. Relentless ASF has been a resounding success, I'd say, in terms of introducing difficulty to the current meta.

 

I have to largely agree with this, right here.  

[Myrmidon]

2 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

Since we can't have one without the other, (meaning, the powers work the same way in both,) both.

 
It doesn’t matter either way. A second or two more to take down either a farm mob or a non-AE isn’t going to matter much, however, the whinging over any changes is likely to give us many pages of hilarious entertainment.😁

[Troo]

15 hours ago, Myrmidon said:

In regards to farming, actual gameplay or both?

 

I was thinking in general.. I guess both. Casual play is likely not impacted as much by outliers as highly leveraged situations.

 

 

Edited March 11, 2022 by Troo
shortened

[Bill Z Bubba]

12 minutes ago, Troo said:

Casual play is likely not impacted as much by outliers as highly leveraged situations.

 

Yea, it's a chasm. Easier to have fun with it when you can turn off the analysis. I get the drive to cut the edge but ya gotta find a balance.

[Riverdusk]

The biggest issue I've seen raised mostly has to do with super long recharge powers getting that 90% chance to proc (Guassian being the obvious example).  But also in some of the epic attacks/holds in particular.

 

If there does need to be a  "fix" to me the easiest one would be to just lower the chance cap.  Having it be 90% in the first place seemed to be kind of an arbitrary number?  So, instead of 90% make it say 75%?  Just throwing it out as an example, the actual cap number could be tweaked to whatever.  That would leave putting procs in "normal" powers alone while curbing some of the outliers.  

[Onlyasandwich]

1 hour ago, Riverdusk said:

make it say 75%

This creates a new counterintuitive nichification of procs. Now instead of just avoiding super fast recharge powers, you also avoid longer recharge, as the cycling potential is wasted, leaving only a small middle ground of moderate recharge powers that just barely hit that 75 cap as optimized for procs.

 

Honestly I like the silly weirdness you can do with the current system, and see the tradeoffs as meaningful. I have of course invested time, effort, and inf into many builds that stretch this mechanic, so am biased towards preserving the fun that I have made for myself. The process of making new builds would be less interesting to me if the value of procs were significantly changed.

 

I suppose it is a bit odd that holds specifically have become damage powers by rote! Honestly this to me is more about the speed of the game and lack of need for long lasting holds in most encounters. Procs contribute to that speed, but are only a piece of the puzzle. I'm all for embracing it and giving mez more of a function in the more challenging content that releases over time.

[Bill Z Bubba]

3 hours ago, Onlyasandwich said:

and see the tradeoffs as meaningful

 

I still don't. Much like the tank buff, where you're left with too much damage output in comparison to the mitigation you have, going procmonster is easily covered with Ageless, Tactics-FocAcc and HOs while still benefiting from a ridiculous level of general power creep from set bonuses and incarnate abilities.

 

And if you want to solo a Posi you just use a second build.

[Marshal_General]

What if they made it a flat chance to proc no matter what type of power it is in and adjusted the damage based on effective recharge and not base so that the over-all damage is roughly the same? Aura type powers would have to be adjusted separately.

[tidge]

My perception of folks gathering in this thread to discuss the topic...

 

[oedipus_tex]

IMO the biggest thing with Recharge is keeping in mind it's sometimes meant to be a penalty. That's where the PPM system goes a bit off kilter IMO. Global damage procs have a Recharge cutoff around 20 seconds where they stop considering additional Recharge time in their calculations. Don't know if that's applicable to our current PPM scenario or not, but I do think 20 seconds is where stuff starts to transition to a different way of thinking.

[Black Zot]

5 minutes ago, Krimson said:

"There are players who are really good at making builds. They must be stopped!" -- The Fun Police weilding Nerf bats

 

Pretty much sums up every thread that mentions balance, really.  Some people simply will not be satisfied until a 0x1 spawn becomes a life-or-death struggle.

Edited March 18, 2022 by Black Zot