What Can Be Done to Recruit Players?

[skoryy]

It is what it is and bless the devs for all they've done but they don't have nowhere near the resources mainstream MMOs have.  What y'all should be recruiting for are more content creators for the dev team.

Edited April 24, 2022 by skoryy

[...]

The game is well past its prime and dying.

 

Development is slow and slowing (has anyone noticed that the last 6 or so Pages have been released roughly every 6 months, in Oct/Nov and April?).

 

Things mentioned years ago have never materialized (controller patch?).

 

They have a closed development team because of "The Talks." Developers,  Community Members and Players are burning out. Ask Jimmy. 

 

HC can't used code from other projects. And most other projects have considerable animosity toward HC. For Reasons. 

 

There's no way around it. All games die. CoH came back for a while.

 

Enjoy it before you burn out. 

[Snarky]

Without any Snarky motivation I honestly do not believe the sub community that farms (or what they farm) will add or subtract from the separate discussion of bringing new players onboard (or their experiences once they join)

[Glacier Peak]

1 hour ago, Troo said:

Would earning AE tickets still be available?

 

Maybe increase the tickets a bit while dialing down other aspects? There a good number of levers that can be adjusted.

This seems plausible in my mind, primarily because xp/inf isn't the most efficient means of farming - its the most convenient. 

[Neiska]

1 hour ago, Nemu said:

Frankly I detest the responses directed at me because you hide your fear of losing AE for YOUR own enjoyment behind some noble pretense of "this is going to cause other people to suffer." I can just as well use your own argument to me that "you don't know that" on that claim. Whereas I am genuine about my feelings about helping newcomers learn and love this game and AE is one of many tools that I have at my disposal for enablement, I'm not sure if your pro-AE intentions are rooted in the same cause. Whereas I'm calling for everyone to help newcomers in different ways you are just calling to "not touch my AE." No I think your intentions are just selfish, and you just don't want something YOU love taken away. And that's perfectly fine, but don't try to spin it as something that benefits everyone. That argument is weak.

 

If people want to respond to the Nerf AE rants, go respond directly to those, and leave me and my posts out of it.

 

 

So, just to clarify, according to you, it's perfectly acceptable for people to enjoy the game that you favor, but not in the ways other people favor? "My way or the highway" as it were? And you seem to be under the impression that others are not as genuine as yourself in their intentions, or as if there is no merit whatsoever to AE. Moreover, myself and others have pointed out that AE has its own community. So, what, that community doesn't matter, or isn't as important? You seem to think you have the superior argument or the moral high ground in this conversation, which you do not.

 

But let us set aside viewpoints a moment and think about this logically. With that in mind, here are a few thoughts - 

 

1. Firstly, this pretext of "helping low levels in X way is wrong" I would argue is inaccurate. If a new player makes the choice to get power leveled, then they are free to do so. Even if it isn't through AE itself but by another means such as PI teams. You are artificially trying to force new players to enjoy the game as it was when it was first released, in the same manner as you did. My argument is not only is this wrong to do (forcing your gameplay upon another), but many such things have changed in that time. Not only in the kinds of players, but in game design, other games on the market, and so on.

 

To be blunt, games are designed to be faster paced now. As an example I would bring up games like Everquest or Diablo 2, where a person might spend years improving their character. And going by "normal game play" as you suggest, it would take quite some time to not only achieve maximum level, but to gather the funds to equip it, as well as to fully gear up incarnates.

 

2. Secondly, this "slow adventure mode" of the game, is in no way guaranteed to foster new players, and in fact might drive some away. What is to stop any new player coming and going "This game is so slow. It sucks. I'm going elsewhere." 

 

3. Helping players in any form, (even if it's a form you personally disagree with), is in fact of a healthy community. There are any number of games where their communities do not do this that I could use as an example of what a festering community really looks like. 

 

4. Next, I would like to ask precisely where is it written that a new player MUST play precisely as you do, or to use open world content? It isn't. There is no rule. CoH always has been a "create your own path" style of game, which I believe in truth is its greatest strength. You can make whatever you want, play how you want, wear what you want, pick what powers you want, go where you want, and fight what you want. Or you may choose not to fight at all. So I am curious where this "players should play X way" argument comes from, as even back on live, that didn't hold true, and it never did. And perhaps you might forget, new players are free to choose to farm/power level if they so wish. And you telling them "that's wrong" is only correct under your specific viewpoint, and not anyone else's.

 

5. You are actually incorrect on what you suggest I think about your points. I know you care about CoH, and I respect your opinion. I merely disagree with them. You only have this argument because you care about the game and are passionate about it, and I admire that. And while I would love an influx of new players as much as you would, I feel it would be wrong to stifle one part of the community in doing so, no matter what method was used.

 

6. One point I take issue with is the assumption that power levelers and farmers are just, hanging out in atlas and mercy going "Psst.. hey newblood. Ya want some exps?" when that painted picture is so laughably inaccurate its almost offensive. In 99.9% of circumstances, we post something like "PI group forming, 3 spots open" or "Farm starting, 4 spots open" or something similar. And whoever responds to it, responds to it. I can think of only a handful of instances where someone was obviously a newbie. Personally, I farm in pocket D exclusively, where people have to have at least some knowledge about where to go and how to get there. Only once, or perhaps twice did I have to explain to someone how to get there. In nearly every other instance, out of 2 years of farming, with hundreds of maps, players already knew where to go, what to do, and what was expected of them.

 

The point of your argument as worded suggests that there are legions of nefarious mustache twirling villains just waiting to poach a newbie and set out to purposefully ruin their coh experience, which when viewed through any lens, simply isn't the case. I can't remember the last time I stepped foot in the "newbie" areas with one of my farmers, and I am skeptical that the issue is anywhere near to the suggestions presented here in previous posts.

 

7. Finally, as others have pointed out, I agree with the idea that the "golden age" of Homecoming is likely past, and what remains are a handful of people trying it out for the first time, and the rest of the community are likely passionate fans of the game who will stick around as long as they choose to. It is unlikely that no matter what actions are taken, will we see a sudden influx of widespread new players. I would dearly love to be proven wrong, but I am skeptical that it will happen, considering what other games are available compared to this one now.

 

Again, I wish to re-iterate that I admire your passion and dedication to the game, and that I simply disagree with some of your points as well as your suggestion that we only help new players in a certain manner. Nothing of what I have said here or elsewhere was meant to be personal in any manner, and that I only dispute the contexts and points of your arguments.

 

Best wishes.

[macskull]

5 hours ago, Without_Pause said:

Wind Control is literally in your Wiki. While it has been mentioned in one of the other code bases that their version might be a bit too strong for end recovery, that seems like a mild issue to hammer out. Also, it can be other bodies simply working on what you want to add in the first place but now just getting it done faster. Oh, I do get your point and understand why you guys are doing what you do. It is just frustrating to see the dev base for this game so split versus condensing it down and making HC even better.

I mean, I can go on the HC Wiki and in 30 seconds Wind Control won't be there anymore, if you're using that justification for it being in the game. The only reason it's on the wiki is because it was on ParagonWiki due to its powers being in the game files. All that means is the power definitions are there, to say nothing of the animations or any other artwork, and it's my understanding that creating new animations is extremely difficult and time-consuming. If I had to venture a guess I'd say it isn't on HC yet because 1) it requires tons of animation work to be at their standards and 2) it isn't a priority right now.

 

I think I've addressed this before, but I'll put all my inf on the line right now when I say Homecoming is never going to absorb another server's dev team. The existing servers out there have wildly different design goals and visions and there's no way to reconcile all that with getting everyone under one roof, even if they did want to merge (spoiler alert: they don't).

[BurtHutt]

24 minutes ago, macskull said:

I mean, I can go on the HC Wiki and in 30 seconds Wind Control won't be there anymore, if you're using that justification for it being in the game. The only reason it's on the wiki is because it was on ParagonWiki due to its powers being in the game files. All that means is the power definitions are there, to say nothing of the animations or any other artwork, and it's my understanding that creating new animations is extremely difficult and time-consuming. If I had to venture a guess I'd say it isn't on HC yet because 1) it requires tons of animation work to be at their standards and 2) it isn't a priority right now.

 

I think I've addressed this before, but I'll put all my inf on the line right now when I say Homecoming is never going to absorb another server's dev team. The existing servers out there have wildly different design goals and visions and there's no way to reconcile all that with getting everyone under one roof, even if they did want to merge (spoiler alert: they don't).

Also, will wind control really make a huge difference in attracting players? If it's just another re-skinned power then maybe not a game changer, if you will.

 

I feel HC will have a group that is always here (maybe that's the number we're seeing now) and that's OK. It'd be nice to see more players to team with. I sincerely hope the HC reaches out to some of us for more help etc (my daytime job involves me managing and planning for large regions so big picture is my thing - I'd love to help).

 

HC has added a lot and it's been well done but not a lot of it is too different or well implemented. I sincerely hope this game survives and is around for a long time. Honestly, I don't think there's much that can be done to add players. Maybe the HC team can give some interviews etc to some major gaming publications. Players can bug their friends to give the game a go. Word of mouth is a big deal.

 

Hopefully we can get something going 🙂

[Saikochoro]

15 hours ago, Nemu said:

I care more about changing people's mindset about how they can help new players in their COH journey so that it's a memorable one that will keep those newbies coming back. Too often it's just power-leveling. It's not the only path and I don't believe that's the best path.

It’s always the same story with these arguments. Some players believe they know best how to play the game and everyone should get with the program.
 

The thing is it doesn’t matter what you believe to the the best path of playing the game. The best path is determined by the individual playing the game. If they want to power level to 50, then that is what they should do. If they want to slow level, turn off xp, and hit up all the story contacts, then that is what they should do. If they want to solo to 50 and never see another player, then that is what they should do. If they want to only team to 50, then that is what they should do. 
 

Just because someone power levels to 50 doesn’t mean they haven’t considered other options. Even if they haven’t it’s not up to you to dictate how they should play. They should play how they think is best not how you think is best for them. There are plenty of non farming LFG advertisements going on all the time that newcomers and veterans alike can join. 

[macskull]

17 minutes ago, BurtHutt said:

Also, will wind control really make a huge difference in attracting players? If it's just another re-skinned power then maybe not a game changer, if you will.

I would venture to say nothing the HC team does ingame will attract new players in a significant way. Even new content releases provide a temporary boost in players which lasts less than a month before the population goes back to its previous numbers. The only way new people will show up is out-of-game awareness, and in today's gaming environment that means streaming. HC really screwed the pooch with the streaming ban. Sure, that's over now, but the damage is done.

[TreesAreTough]

Content creation would be great. I have a few clips saved and while I probably wont change anything it just takes one person with a mass of eyeballs on em to get new people logging in.
Game player bases also tend to go in cycles, look at steam-charts for any game, goes up & down over & over. Maybe we are on the downward spiral but it can spiral up too.

Burn out is real but I think not many are concerned about healthy sustainable gaming habits. They probably burn out on many things because thats how they interact with life. Thats how its been for me in the past and im sure ill find another game to dive into like that again.

New content for the game can help a lot but there's only so many rides to go on and so many ways to ride them. How can you make it more rewarding to complete content in different ways? Challenge runs are possible but why would you do it other than an internal drive? Maybe there are but I dont know. That is how a lot of the older stuff goes. Attempting to bridge the gap seems like an easier route with good benefits.
However, I feel that no matter how much you add it can be quickly boiled down to its mechanics and ground into meaninglessness. I would love new ways of player engagement (like a way to have more structured Costume Contests, who is participating, when they will start, where, who won, & how much influ) but I dont even know what kind or how big of an ask this is.


The best I can do day to day is try to be more active/engaged with other players. Talking, teaming, leading, etc. It feels a lot like being a DM but there is no one DM, we are all mini DMs. How to keep the game going forward with "fun" is another game unto itself.  The same feeling of the connections that come from D&D seem to be with me in this game too. There are some people in the community who are really good at this (often seen leading trials, challenge runs, contests, SGs) and they can really bring in and retain players.

There is no other game that lets you create your own comic book hero. A lot of people could be down to see what thats about!

Edited April 24, 2022 by TreesAreTough

[...]

27 minutes ago, macskull said:

I would venture to say nothing the HC team does ingame will attract new players in a significant way. <Snipped>

 

Yes.

[macskull]

20 minutes ago, ... said:

Yes.

Oh, I'm under no illusion that player numbers will magically start to go up. That ship sailed a long time ago.

[oedipus_tex]

7 hours ago, Without_Pause said:

Wind Control is literally in your Wiki. While it has been mentioned in one of the other code bases that their version might be a bit too strong for end recovery, that seems like a mild issue to hammer out. 

 

 

The version of Wind Control that exists in the live code consists of power definitions but not particles. In my experience, power definitions require the least amount of development time. The particles are where the time crunch is. The team could reuse particles from other sets and possibly get an okay-ish looking set. It's not the case that's there's an entirely complete Wind Control set in the base files that's ready to roll, though. 

[Snarky]

6 minutes ago, oedipus_tex said:

 

 

The version of Wind Control that exists in the live code consists of power definitions but not particles. In my experience, power definitions require the least amount of development time. The particles are where the time crunch is. The team could reuse particles from other sets and possibly get an okay-ish looking set. It's not the case that's there's an entirely complete Wind Control set in the base files that's ready to roll, though. 

1) i've heard the set blows anyways

 

2) wind control (or whether folks farm *eyeroll) will have no effect on attracting players

[Without_Pause]

50 minutes ago, oedipus_tex said:

 

 

The version of Wind Control that exists in the live code consists of power definitions but not particles. In my experience, power definitions require the least amount of development time. The particles are where the time crunch is. The team could reuse particles from other sets and possibly get an okay-ish looking set. It's not the case that's there's an entirely complete Wind Control set in the base files that's ready to roll, though. 

Somebody still got a live version of it. If that shard is on life support, and they all are, why not reach out to them and see about coming on over and doing similar work?

[Without_Pause]

3 hours ago, macskull said:

I think I've addressed this before, but I'll put all my inf on the line right now when I say Homecoming is never going to absorb another server's dev team. The existing servers out there have wildly different design goals and visions and there's no way to reconcile all that with getting everyone under one roof, even if they did want to merge (spoiler alert: they don't).

I don't expect them to do so. Apparently HC has ruffled enough feathers for that to never happen. My point is they could at least try on some level to gain talent which has at least some working knowledge of the code base you are working on. Me being me I would of had the various shard teams be their own community, but apparently that's so not happening for whatever reason.

[oedipus_tex]

33 minutes ago, Without_Pause said:

I don't expect them to do so. Apparently HC has ruffled enough feathers for that to never happen. My point is they could at least try on some level to gain talent which has at least some working knowledge of the code base you are working on. Me being me I would of had the various shard teams be their own community, but apparently that's so not happening for whatever reason.

 

 

I understand the difficult position the HC team is in.

 

Curating content is difficult. In a number of posts the HC team has outlined the challenges of nativizing code. I don't think it's the case that they aren't open to it. It's just that powersets and other systems are made of many interlocking sub-parts. It might not seem like a poorly coded power could crash the game or corrupt the database, but it unfortunately is. I do think we'll see some collabs one day. 

[macskull]

2 hours ago, Without_Pause said:

Somebody still got a live version of it. If that shard is on life support, and they all are, why not reach out to them and see about coming on over and doing similar work?

Rebirth didn't get "a live version of it," they built the set on their own using the power definitions that were in the game files (i.e., they did all the animation/VFX work, which is where the vast majority of difficulty lies). Rebirth's dev team is busy enough with their own content as-is, and getting them to develop a Homecoming-specific version (since the powers systems between Homecoming and the OuroDev-based servers are not compatible) won't happen.

 

EDIT: The reason other dev teams aren't going to just up and merge with (or contribute toward) Homecoming isn't really a case of ruffled feathers, except maybe the Thunderspy team. The other dev teams have different design goals and philosophies that are mutually exclusive with Homecoming, and it makes no sense to duplicate effort on a different server when their attention is primarily focused on making unique things to bring players to their own server.

Edited April 25, 2022 by macskull

[Starhawk32]

I always find it interesting when this comes up.  on Excel we typically run over 900 characters on at night and peaks up to 1200 depending on day or events.  It is not that much different than when I started here 2+ years ago.  If you run DFB and Posi enough you will see there are still new people joining.  Maybe enough even to help curb burnout numbers

Edited April 25, 2022 by Starhawk32

[Excraft]

23 hours ago, Nemu said:

I never said anything about nerfing AE/Powerleveling and yet people dive right into this "Don't Nerf AE" rhetoric.

 

Let me put this into simpler language so the "DON'T NERF AE" crowd can understand.

 

You farming for inf, you multiboxing and PLing your own alts or you trading PLs with other farmers - I don't care. I PL too from time to time. I see nothing wrong with that.

 

You inviting some random newbie that just started this game to a farm to fast track them to 50 and thinking that you are being helpful - I have a problem with that thought process.

 

I care more about changing people's mindset about how they can help new players in their COH journey so that it's a memorable one that will keep those newbies coming back. Too often it's just power-leveling. It's not the only path and I don't believe that's the best path.

 

As for the fire farm for influence comment. What about teaching newbies to craft and convert IOs, how to turn merits into inf, etc... How about teaching them craft cheap builds to speed run TFs so they can rack up merits/hami-Os in a short time and turn that into profit, and then use that profit to upgrade/fund alts? Nah that requires too much effort to write and explain stuff to people new to the game right? Much easier to just let them sit on a farm, which they've already sat through for 50 levels, and further solidify in their mind that the only way to make inf or do anything in this game is through farms right?

 

Simple language time: There are other methods than power leveling and farming to enable and help newcomers to the game. You just need to be wiling to put in the effort. Not everyone will listen, but you will be giving those that do listen an option and the ability to choose between farming/PL vs the alternatives.

 

You don't need to defend AE, you don't need to write up elaborate justifications for why we should keep AE. None of that is relevant to what I'm talking about. Is that clear?

 

This is nothing more than a totally transparent, very thinly veiled, very poor attempt to hide behind some false sense of virtuous nobility to force others into what you feel is the "right way" to play.  Just be honest, you want to nerf AE because it offends your precious sense of how the game is meant to be played.  Guess what?  Being offended doesn't make you right.   Stop bullshitting everyone and stop trying to hide behind some false nobility here.  You don't know anything about what a new player may or may not want to do with their time.  Your preferred methods of earning in game funds or what activities you enjoy are good for you.  They aren't what everyone else will find enjoyable and new players aren't so stupid that they won't figure things out on their own and find the paths they want to take.  This game just isn't that difficult to master.

 

As for new players, this game launched 18 years ago.  It's old.  While the volunteer staff here is doing their best and are releasing new stuff, it isn't attracting new players.  It doesn't have the development staff that newer games with more support, more funding, better graphics, more complex mechanics and far superior QoL options have.  You aren't going to get droves of new players in here.  It's wishful thinking to believe otherwise.  Be happy with what you have.

 

On 4/23/2022 at 9:15 AM, Shadeknight said:

One has to be taught how to work with certain programs/tools for example.

 

And what?  People are stupid and can't learn how to work with them?

 

23 hours ago, Myrmidon said:

My suggestion is to only allow AE rewards for Devs Choice content and scrub the rest. Although it would move the farmers back to Peregrine Island for the Save-A-Mission game, it would catapult AE into the quality content bracket, which is where it always should have been in the first place.

 

This is a very bad idea and would drive away even more players.

Edited April 25, 2022 by Excraft

[Myrmidon]

41 minutes ago, Excraft said:

 

23 hours ago, Myrmidon said:

My suggestion is to only allow AE rewards for Devs Choice content and scrub the rest. Although it would move the farmers back to Peregrine Island for the Save-A-Mission game, it would catapult AE into the quality content bracket, which is where it always should have been in the first place.

Expand  

 

This is a very bad idea and would drive away even more players.

I already know the reason why my suggestion would not be used, however, could you elaborate on why you believe that it’s a “very bad idea and would drive away more players”?

[Myrmidon]

12 hours ago, Troo said:

 

Would earning AE tickets still be available?

 

Maybe increase the tickets a bit while dialing down other aspects? There a good number of levers that can be adjusted.

There’s always room for compromise (except for a Radiation Emission with no toggles. That is a mortal sin).

[Excraft]

45 minutes ago, Myrmidon said:

I already know the reason why my suggestion would not be used, however, could you elaborate on why you believe that it’s a “very bad idea and would drive away more players”?

 

Sure.  There's a great many people using AE to level up alts and as a primary means for inf generation.  There are also a great many people who just enjoy farming.  Are you suggesting that taking that away from them is going to miraculously keep them here? 

[Bill Z Bubba]

10 minutes ago, Excraft said:

Sure.  There's a great many people using AE to level up alts and as a primary means for inf generation.  There are also a great many people who just enjoy farming.  Are you suggesting that taking that away from them is going to miraculously keep them here? 

 

Some would quit from any AE nerf.

Some would move on to other farming methods. DA at max diff with +3 lvl shifts is slower but can still pull in tolerable levels of inf and sidekick leveling.

Some wouldn't notice at all as they never step foot in AE.

Some would take such heavy handed idiocy as a sign to move on to one of the other CoH groups just on principle, affected or not.

Some would gloat about finally stickin it to the dirty farmers.

 

We're a diverse group so reactions would be just as diverse.

 

Personally, I think AE has been nerfed plenty already and it should be left alone for those that want 1000 lvl 50 characters. I used it the other day to get a new bio/rad/soul tank from 1 to 33 and will probably just farm him up to 50. Or maybe 40. Still annoyed I have to go bother with the patron arc to get soul mastery so maybe he'll just get deleted. Who knows?

[Clave Dark 5]

4 hours ago, Starhawk32 said:

I always find it interesting when this comes up.  on Excel we typically run over 900 characters on at night and peaks up to 1200 depending on day or events.  It is not that much different than when I started here 2+ years ago.  If you run DFB and Posi enough you will see there are still new people joining.  Maybe enough even to help curb burnout numbers

Hush you, stop harshing a perfectly good round of DOOOOM!