Suggested QoL change - Pool Power Standardization

[Zepp]

Currently there are essentially three types of Pool Powers:
Travel (and Concealment)

T_1a Lvl 4, no Prerequisites

T_1b Lvl 4, no Prerequisites
T_1c Lvl 4, no Prerequisites

T_2.5 Lvl 14, 2 Prerequisites

T_2.5 Lvl 14, 2 Prerequisites

 

Origin

T_1a Lvl 4, no Prerequisites

T_1b Lvl 4, no Prerequisites
T_1c Lvl 4, no Prerequisites

T_2.5 Lvl 14, 2 Prerequisites

T₃ Lvl 20, 2 Prerequisites

 

Other

T_1a Lvl 4, no Prerequisites

T_1b Lvl 4, no Prerequisites
T₂ Lvl 14, 1 Prerequisite

T_2.5 Lvl 14, 2 Prerequisites

T_2.5 Lvl 14, 2 Prerequisites

 

 

My suggestion is to consider making all Pool Power sets follow the same format:

T_1a Lvl 4, no Prerequisites

T_1b Lvl 4, no Prerequisites
T_1c Lvl 4, no Prerequisites

T₂ Lvl 14, 1 Prerequisites

T_2.5 Lvl 14, 2 Prerequisites

 

 

This would make things simpler and easier to understand, and would not adversely affect any current builds.

[Uun]

If I understand this correctly, you could take Tough without taking Boxing/Kick or take Aid Self without taking Aid Other/Injection. Seems like more power creep. 

[TheZag]

The quality of life change already happened with allowing travel powers at level 4 with no prerequisite.  The suggested format is even more lenient than travel sets currently are.

 

This would free up 2 power picks on my tank and he doesnt need any buffs.  Having all pool sets follow the 'other' category would be more balanced but i dont want the days of travel powers at 14 again.  I think your best bet here is to advocate for origin pools to have their last power available at 14 with 2 prerequisites like the other travel power pools.  Im not aware of anyone going that deep into pool powers by 14 but i suppose they are out there somewhere.

[plainguy]

On 7/4/2022 at 11:48 AM, Uun said:

If I understand this correctly, you could take Tough without taking Boxing/Kick or take Aid Self without taking Aid Other/Injection. Seems like more power creep. 

I begrudgingly agree.. 
But there are some powers in these pools I just don't need and hate taking them just to get the power I do need.

I wish there was some compromise in between. 

Or if every power pool was just tossed into one GIANT pool and you pick these specific powers on the level requirement. 

Example 

You can pickup Corrosive Vial, Group Fly, Misdirection  IF you picked up any two powers from any pool before it. So I can pick up Corrosive Vial if I have Air Superiority and  Infiltration. 

[biostem]

While I agree that I dislike taking powers I don't like or need, it is part of the cost-benefit analysis one must make when it comes to ultimately getting the powers you do want.  Figuring out how to juggle the "must-have's" with the "like-to-have's" is a big part of the game.  If anything, I'd like to see other options added so I'm not always looking to the same 2-3 pools on all my characters...

[Zepp]

I understand the concerns about power creep, and might suggest that maybe some power shuffling might help with those concerns:

Fighting:

T_1a Lvl 4, no Prerequisites: Boxing

T_1b Lvl 4, no Prerequisites: Kick
T_1c Lvl 4, no Prerequisites: Cross Punch

T₂ Lvl 14, 1 Prerequisites: Tough

T_2.5 Lvl 14, 2 Prerequisites: Weave

 

That will mean that people are still forced to waste a power pick on boxing/kick (or have the option of Cross Punch) and since Cross Punch is only really good if you already have B&K it is not a big issue.

 

Medicine:

T_1a Lvl 4, no Prerequisites: Aid Other

T_1b Lvl 4, no Prerequisites: Injection
T_1c Lvl 4, no Prerequisites: Resuscitate

T₂ Lvl 14, 1 Prerequisites: Aid Self

T_2.5 Lvl 14, 2 Prerequisites: Field Medic

 

Still have to take an aid-ally power or injection to get Aid Self and Field Medic...

 

These two power sets seem to be the most controversial as they are the ones that people commonly take powers that they don't use to get the first power that they want. Since the final tier powers in these sets are both lackluster, shifting the order would be an easy fix.

 

 

 

[Akisan]

I'll agree that several of the pools should definitely be shuffled and/or completely reworked.  I do also have to agree with @TheZag here - there's already so much QoL in the pools, we really don't need more.  Honestly, I feel that there's been too much QoL creep in the pools, and a lot of pools should go back to 6/6/14/14*/20, as there are *very few* leveling builds that should be taking a pool power at Level Four.  (And yes, travel power at 6 is a bit of a pet peeve of mine - you don't need a dedicated movement power that early).

 

6 hours ago, plainguy said:

Or if every power pool was just tossed into one GIANT pool and you pick these specific powers on the level requirement.

 

That sounds an awful lot like Champion Online's system, and as I recall, led to a lot of very specific, very cookie-cutter builds.  That, and it'd be a metric ton of power creep here - as written, I could take Super Jump as my pre-req for Tough and Weave (and then take as many other 2-prereq powers as I want), which is really not far off of "why even have requirements".  For reference - my main has 14 pool powers across 5 pools.  I'd be so very happy, and more than a bit overpowered, if I could take CJ + SJ, then any 12 pool powers.

[biostem]

2 minutes ago, Akisan said:

That sounds an awful lot like Champion Online's system, and as I recall, led to a lot of very specific, very cookie-cutter builds.

You can definitely run into a "buffet-style" build, where you only pick out specific powers, (but in that case, the powers require X powers taken from within the same set or Y powers taken before from any sets)...

[Akisan]

Just now, biostem said:

the powers require X powers taken from within the same set or Y powers taken before from any sets

 

That's more workable, and could allow for some much deeper pools, with more powerful things mixed in (like an actually damaging nuke that requires level 38, with 3 in this pool, and 6+ taken elsewhere).  Kinda erodes the ATs' distinctions though...

[biostem]

1 minute ago, Akisan said:

That's more workable, and could allow for some much deeper pools, with more powerful things mixed in (like an actually damaging nuke that requires level 38, with 3 in this pool, and 6+ taken elsewhere).  Kinda erodes the ATs' distinctions though...

Well, CO's a different animal.  Many powers have no cooldown at all, and your "armor" basically consists of 1 power.  You can basically hold out a few levels and just use the equivalent of a nuke as your main attack.  I'm not proposing that be implemented here in CoH, (there's a reason I'm here and not playing CO, after all...)

[Luminara]

On 7/4/2022 at 12:25 PM, TheZag said:

Having all pool sets follow the 'other' category would be more balanced but i dont want the days of travel powers at 14 again.

 

Athletic/Beast/Ninja Run and jump packs all free and available at level 1, jet packs and hover board/void skiff/magic carpet purchasable and usable at level 1, movement speed no longer level-dependent... you know, I honestly wouldn't even blink if they restored the old level 14 requirement on travel powers at this point.

[Rudra]

I agree with @Akisan. The proposed change to the pool powers is too much like CO. However, even CO had requirements for X powers from a given pool to have been picked for the player to get it. You could grab one and only one energy build attack during character creation and one starter attack. Then you could grab as many non-energy builder starter attacks as you wanted as you leveled. However, you still had to have progressively more picks from a specific pool to access the more powerful attacks in that pool. So in that way, the proposal is also different from CO. Even CO requires you to stick with a set pool to get the later powers.

 

So no. I am against combining all the pool sets into a single pool for the purpose of accessing the later powers in the set. People are already stuck on the Holy Four pool sets. I am against enabling people to go Hasten -> Combat Jump -> Tough -> Weave -> Tactics -> Maneuvers -> Assault or whatever order they want to go without having to take the specific pool's power prerequisites. Though in this example, they would only be missing either Boxing or Kick. (Edit: However, this proposal would now let them replace Boxing or Kick with Acrobatics or Burnout or Whirlwind or.... So.... No.)

 

As for re-ordering the pools? Meh, I don't think I should be the one to argue that. I like the pools as is, but that doesn't mean I won't like them just as well re-organized.

 

As for standardizing the pools? I am against it. The travel pools have already been modified for accessibility of characters. They are waaaaaaayyyyyy easy to dip into and get just what you need. That was done because players complained about having to wait so long for their characters to use theme powers, such as fliers being able to fly. I would not want the travel pools to go back to the way they were, where you had to have Hover or Air Superiority to get Flight for instance, and had to be level 14 to get it at that. However, I absolutely do not think the other pools should follow the travel pools into rapid acquisition. Part of the game is planning your character and figuring out how to get what you want. We already have too many players complaining the game is too easy for them. So let's not make the game easier for them.

Edited July 6, 2022 by Rudra
Edited to remove duplicate "the game".

[Aracknight]

I see both sides.  On one side, I hate having to pick a power, that I will never, ever use, to get the power that I want.  We'll call this power "Boxing."

 

On the other hand, without it, now I have to figure out what other power, that I won't have a slot to put anything substantial in it.  But then maybe I could squeeze in a taunt or something.  

 

I think I'm generally for this.  But I do see both sides.

[Troo]

On 7/4/2022 at 12:20 AM, Zepp said:

This would make things simpler and easier to understand, and would not adversely affect any current builds.

 

I get what you're going for. So long as it doesn't deviate from costs and consequences of choices I think I can agree.

[Zepp]

The two most common powers I take to unlock later powers are Boxing and Fly (I prefer Hover+Evasive Maneuvers to avoid the post-combat jolt). That being said, I am interested in anyone else's ideas to standardize Pools while not handicapping current builds or promoting power creep... My solution (the standard formula with some shuffling of powers in Fighting and Medicine) is just one idea. I think that it is a rather elegant solution, that being said, I am open to discourse (unless you want to propose a Champions Online solution, I feel about CO the same way I feel about Apple Products - Why would anyone want to pay more for a lesser product that only looks good if you are in the cult mindset...).

[Rudra]

Yeah, CO can burn for all I care. I only like some of the costume options. (Animal heads like rabbit. Their rabbit tail. Variety of snake heads. The ability to make a draconic character that actually looks draconic. The multi-section approach to leg costume options and arm costume options. The ability to customize eyes.) So I would really rather not have CoX emulate CO.

 

I've already stated I'm against power pool standardization. Different purposes, so different layouts. That's my take at least. As for adjustments to the power pools? The only one I would like to see is for Aid Other to no longer have that insufferable interrupt. NPCs don't have Field Medic, and their Aid Other is still not interruptible. Just another case of the NPCs get better versions of some powers. Though in this case, I really would like to see that interrupt go the way of the dodo without having to take Field Medic. (Which I'm pretty sure was created more or less to take that interrupt out.)

 

So my take on the Medicine pool at least? Change Aid Other to lose the interrupt. Change Field Medic to compensate by removing the removes the interrupt from Aid Other. The adding recovery to Aid Self and the boost to healing effectiveness would be sufficient for Field Medic in my opinion. And that's it. I am rather fond of how the other power pools currently work.

Edited July 6, 2022 by Rudra
Edited to add missing punctuation.

[Uun]

11 hours ago, Luminara said:

Athletic/Beast/Ninja Run and jump packs all free and available at level 1, jet packs and hover board/void skiff/magic carpet purchasable and usable at level 1, movement speed no longer level-dependent... you know, I honestly wouldn't even blink if they restored the old level 14 requirement on travel powers at this point.

You don't even have to pay for the jet pack. Take the TUNNEL from Atlas/Mercy to FBZ and log out for a day or two. Free Traveler's Jet Pack.

[kelika2]

On 7/4/2022 at 11:48 AM, Uun said:

Seems like more power creep. 

I disagree.  Enhancement slots are more precious and best or worst case scenario skipping Boxing/Kick would only lead to another io mule power

[arcane]

The suggestion is nice, but, its expected result… I don’t think giving every OP meta build in the game extra power picks (even mules add power) at this point in the game’s life makes a lot of sense. 

Edited July 6, 2022 by arcane

[arcane]

15 minutes ago, kelika2 said:

I disagree.  Enhancement slots are more precious and best or worst case scenario skipping Boxing/Kick would only lead to another io mule power

Mules = more slots for the rest = factually power creep

[kelika2]

29 minutes ago, arcane said:

Mules = more slots for the rest = factually power creep

I know its in the name, but if something is that small, are power creeps really bad?

[TheZag]

Some powers arent a 1 slot mule.  I have a tank that 6 slotted their tier 1 attack with a purple set because there wasnt room in the build elsewhere.  1 more power pick and i could take a better attack and have it 6 slotted instead,  even if it was only the tier 2 attack that got skipped.  But it would more likely end up being an extra attack from the patron pool.

 

[Rudra]

2 hours ago, kelika2 said:

I know its in the name, but if something is that small, are power creeps really bad?

Incremental death. If small power creep is allowed because it is small, then eventually the game will not be CoX because of all the incremental power creep. It's how big changes are made when there is strong opposition to those changes. You slip in little changes over time until they add up to the big change.

[kelika2]

13 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Incremental death. If small power creep is allowed because it is small, then eventually the game will not be CoX because of all the incremental power creep. It's how big changes are made when there is strong opposition to those changes. You slip in little changes over time until they add up to the big change.

Is this why regen isnt getting buffed because changes are bad... just cuz?

[Rudra]

Don't know. All I was saying is why small power creep would be viewed as negatively as big power creep. I don't argue power creep. I prefer to argue changes, for or against, on each suggested change's effects.

 

Edit: Also, Change = Bad is not the same as Power Creep = Bad.

 

Edit again: And before anyone starts arguing that people like me are against change simply because it is change, change for the sake of change is not worthwhile change when you are dealing with a community.

Edited July 6, 2022 by Rudra