To Proc Or Not To Proc For Damage?

[Clave Dark 5]

Quick question that some cursory looking didn't find an answer to:

 

I'm currently MIDS building and got to wondering about procced-out damage vs. straight up IO slotting.  I have a couple of attacks that do "superior damage" and was considering proccing one up for the hell of it.  Would that be worth it? 

 

I know there's always another set bonus for something somewhere to chase, and there's a lot of subjective taste or distaste for this, but especially when you're getting up into the big league of attacks like say Knockout Blow, would I be sacrificing damage for splashiness?

[Spaghetti Betty]

I think it mostly depends on the power in question. I would never proc out something like Storm Kick because the return on it isn't as good as regular slotting. Knockout Blow should definitely be loaded up with procs.

 

Then there are other cases like Freezing Touch. It gets access to a ton of good sets for chasing bonuses, but can also be proc'd out for massive damage. I like powers like that because you can get really creative with how you slot it.

 

Oh, and per usual, recharge rate is generally a good place to start on choosing what powers would make good proc bombs.

[GM Kal]

To be totally honest, I just get on #at-build-general on the HC discord and ask.
The proc formulas are complex, and it helps to double check with other folks. Unless you really like doing math.

But a good guide is:
If the damage is "worth it" (good damage per animation) made sure to slot for damage first, and get the the % shown in Mids just into the red numbers, or at least the yellows. More than that is a waste and diminishing returns.
If you can slot the power for not too much recharge in the power itself, and the base recharge and global recharge bonuses you have put it somewhere around the PPM of the proc, then it's likely worth it.
Example: the proc can go off 3 times per minute. The recharge on the power is somewhere around 20 seconds. Less is fine if you use the power lots anyway, but something like 50 seconds may be a waste. A recharge of say 2 seconds would not be ideal, but the proc will still help to some extent, and might as well if it's used in your damage rotation, and you have no other priorities.

There is also area, pseudo pets, number of effects, ect, ect, to consider; but I will not be getting into that.
Ask somebody regarding your specific power or powerset.
 

[Galactiman]

Mids will tell you the average damage of an attack based on your slotting, including procs. So you can play around with it until you figure out what will give the most output.

[Clave Dark 5]

1 hour ago, Galactiman said:

Mids will tell you the average damage of an attack based on your slotting, including procs. So you can play around with it until you figure out what will give the most output.

I didn't know Mids would calculate procs as well, that's good to know.

 

2 hours ago, Spaghetti Betty said:

I think it mostly depends on the power in question. .... Oh, and per usual, recharge rate is generally a good place to start on choosing what powers would make good proc bombs.

That too is a good point, I hadn't thought about checking into that yet (which is why I usually just lift completed builds from the forums). 

 

The build I'm currently working on is something of a novelty build, and I haven't even settle don an AT yet.  I'd probably better marshal my ideas and then post it with an explanation of what I'm chasing in the Archetype forums; maybe there I could better spell it all out.

[Six-Six]

The general rule I use for my toons is

1) if it's a major power, I slot it straight forward often 6-slotting an entire set (most of which come with a proc anyway).
2) if It's a power that accepts different IOs, then I go with Betty's logic. So it's funner for me to find a power I can Frankenslotting to squeeze every bit out of it.
3) if it's a meh power, but part of my rotation (like T1 and T2 primaries of blasters which I always take) then a proc makes a big difference... sometimes doubling the damage.
and finally, if there's a power that has a goldilocks recharge as GM Kal pointed out (though I rarely do the math) then I try to stick a proc in it if I can.

Often, I would slot to address a power's acc, end, recharge, damage... in that order of priority. Once the power has been fine-tuned to my rotation, and I have slots to spare
then I stick a proc in.

Also, I tend to use procs thematically. For example, my Kheldian would rather slot Touch of Death +chance of negative energy damage instead of Mako's lethal... because Kheldians are energy creatures. Similarly, my DP/Ninja would lean towards lethal. 

Some of my favourite procs are the utility ones like -recharge, -res, +hold, +disorient that give my damage powers something extra or +psionic damage for the otherwise damageless hold/cc powers

[BurtHutt]

I've made some 'procmonsters'. It's nice when the powers proc and you hit. The one thing I learned the hard way was if you totally proc out a power, the accuracy will suffer. 

 

I know some were going on about nerfing procs etc. I don't know if there's a need, really. It's a bit of a trade off most of the time. 

[Clave Dark 5]

1 minute ago, BurtHutt said:

The one thing I learned the hard way was if you totally proc out a power, the accuracy will suffer.

Solid point there.  I like to level my characters the old fashion way rather than theory crafting them for "already at 50", so yeah, I wouldn't be six-slotting procs into anything, I hate missing.  Like GM Kal and Six-Six suggested, I'd want to get the basic Acc/Dam at reasonable levels via frankenslotting or maybe a few pieces from one well-chosen set (such as a set that one of the procs is already a member of) before gorging on procs.

 

13 minutes ago, Six-Six said:

1) if it's a major power, I slot it straight forward often 6-slotting an entire set (most of which come with a proc anyway).
2) if It's a power that accepts different IOs, then I go with Betty's logic. So it's funner for me to find a power I can Frankenslotting to squeeze every bit out of it.
3) if it's a meh power, but part of my rotation (like T1 and T2 primaries of blasters which I always take) then a proc makes a big difference... sometimes doubling the damage.
and finally, if there's a power that has a goldilocks recharge as GM Kal pointed out (though I rarely do the math) then I try to stick a proc in it if I can.

1) Anything attack that has "superior damage" is probably a a major power, so unless I slot a single poroc or two at most for some helpful effect like Chance For Recharge, maybe I shouldn't bother if you're right.

2) Betty's Logic???

[Six-Six]

@Clave Dark 5 I was referring to @Spaghetti Betty's reply and how she rationalises it.

Oh, and I forgot to mention. I usually proc out my MM henchmen instead of slotting for damage.

Edited July 10, 2022 by Six-Six

[Clave Dark 5]

Oh yeah, I see now what you meant, yeah.  I was thinking it was "Betty's Logic" was like some rule of thumb I didn't know.  😃  No henchmen on this build though! 

[Uun]

You don't mention what AT. Proc damage is the same regardless of AT, so you get more bang for your buck on ATs with low damage modifiers (defenders, brutes). On ATs with high damage modifiers (scrappers, blasters), you generally want to max out damage enhancements. I generally don't slot more than 1 proc per power on blasters/scrappers, but I'll slot 3-4 per power on defenders or brutes.

[tidge]

1 hour ago, Uun said:

You don't mention what AT. Proc damage is the same regardless of AT, so you get more bang for your buck on ATs with low damage modifiers (defenders, brutes). On ATs with high damage modifiers (scrappers, blasters), you generally want to max out damage enhancements. I generally don't slot more than 1 proc per power on blasters/scrappers, but I'll slot 3-4 per power on defenders or brutes.

 

^ This is the advice to follow ^

 

Low damage AT(*) typically get %damage, higher damage AT benefit more from enhancing recharge and damage of (attack) powers. There are of course some non-attack powers in DPS AT that are amazing with %damage (e.g. DNA Siphon on Bio Defense)

 

I've had mixed results with %-Resistance. It can work wonders on teams, and for non-DPS characters I have to get a reasonable %proc attack chain to maximize such a thing solo.

 

(*) Masterminds are a special case. The endurance costs are so high for MM attacks that slotting for %damage is not worth it IMO. Better to slot for %-Res or some sort of "control" (including knockdown).

[Mezmera]

Agree on everything being said.  It really comes down to a bunch of factors.  The base recharge of the power you're looking to slot is the major factor in proc vs sets.  Then yes AT damage modifiers play a factor.  I will usually slot 5 of a good set into powers which those usually carry a damage proc and then add another proc 6th if it seems beneficial. 

 

There's always one long recharging power you can find in your assault powers that you can look to play around with like Crushing Uppercut for my tank for instance, it can house melee, hold and stun procs at an optimal recharge so I look to slot that power just enough with 2 hecatombs to get it in the 90%'s for damage and then slot procs for a bunch of extra damage.

Edited July 10, 2022 by Mezmera

[Sovera]

Two damage procs per attack is my maximum (five slot a set that has a damage proc, then add a second from another set). We can put in more, but meh, to what point? The loss of bonuses steals what gains we get.

 

Other than some specific combos all the procmonstering is about is fighting easy content where the hobbling is not as noticeable. For example: I used to procmonster Burn (four damage procs, two ACC/DMG Hamis) and only lost 3 seconds in recharge. But this happened at level 50, with all other sets in place, with Hasten up. All it took was exemplaring a few times to notice the lack of the bonuses and the recharge stats.

 

Then I took the character to a farm and timed its clearing and got the same times with and without the procmonstered Burn. Less Burns Per Minute stole the extra damage the procs added once looking at mission clearing times.

 

Same with Freezing Touch. Ran several tests with it slotted normal (five purples + a damage proc) then proc monstered, then semi proc monstered, Full procmonster hit the hardest but messed with the rotation and introduced gaps. Semi procmonstered still hit harder than the non procmonstered and had enough recharge for the attack chain to be smooth.

 

But once pylon tested the times of all three were the same.

 

 

There are a lot lot lot of 'gut feels' in the CoH community. <This> feels great, I use <that> and it really makes a difference. But once asked if the ones claiming it have done any tests and it's no, just how it feels.

 

That's how we end up with the idea that Staff/Elec Melee are good AoE and the -ToHit incarnates make a difference in surviving.

[Clave Dark 5]

18 hours ago, Uun said:

You don't mention what AT. Proc damage is the same regardless of AT, so you get more bang for your buck on ATs with low damage modifiers (defenders, brutes). On ATs with high damage modifiers (scrappers, blasters), you generally want to max out damage enhancements. I generally don't slot more than 1 proc per power on blasters/scrappers, but I'll slot 3-4 per power on defenders or brutes.

That's a fair point that I think I had known once but sort of forgotten.  I'm working on a stalker* and they don't need so much help with damage as say a controller; procs for other effects such as "chance to build up" would be something else though I'm thinking.  I'm already stepping a bit away from "super-procced for damage" in these bigger powers as it is, and instead using sets for chasing +recharge.  I'm currently toiling away at my build and will be posting in the stalker forums soon looking for more advice.

 

*Funny story: I've only rolled one single stalker since HC started, so I pretty much never visit the forums.  Turns out I was trying to re-invent their Elec/Shield wheel (Spring Attack, Shield Charge, Lightning Rod), which I had no idea was already a whole thing there.  I'm still shooting for something like that, but with my own spin on it.

Edited July 11, 2022 by Clave Dark 5

[Clave Dark 5]

10 hours ago, Sovera said:

That's how we end up with the idea that Staff/Elec Melee are good AoE and the -ToHit incarnates make a difference in surviving.

Being new to this rodeo I have no idea if we now know those are bad or good.

[tidge]

12 hours ago, Sovera said:

That's how we end up with the idea that Staff/Elec Melee are good AoE and the -ToHit incarnates make a difference in surviving.

 

1 hour ago, Clave Dark 5 said:

Being new to this rodeo I have no idea if we now know those are bad or good.

 

I haven't done "spreadsheets", I can't speak at all to staff/elec melee, and I have not ever taken -ToHit Incarnates... but I do have a Dark/ Blaster, and Dark/ has a -ToHit component...  I can believe that -ToHit is over-rated on +4/x8 content, That character has done a LOT of +4/x8 PUG content and some solo (at 35-50, generally incarnate bores me solo) and here are my clearest memories:

• The -ToHit debuff doesn't last long, and only applies to targets hit... and not every target gets hit
• Eventually something hits, hits HARD, or gets a critical control/debuff... and then the adjective "pear-shaped" enters the conversation

With small spawn multipliers, or a teammate (even just one) taking aggro (including taking enemy AoE away from the Blaster), Dark/ is just fine... but chances are that such a  teammate taking the aggro is already capped at most defenses anyway, so -ToHit may only be reducing the opportunities for a cascading defense failure (for them). Having a single teammate doesn't even mean that a 2-man team can't take more than 17 at a time... it's just as important to have someone else there when things go pear-shaped.

 

There is of course a different (Interface Incarnate) issue that -ToHit does not speed up defeat times for enemies; Diamagnetic's %-Regeneration effect on certain 'sacks of HP' creatures is probably more important. I don't solo enough with incarnates in play to make a serious assessment.

 

[Sovera]

2 hours ago, Clave Dark 5 said:

Being new to this rodeo I have no idea if we now know those are bad or good.

 

Staff/Elec Melee are good fun. They are flashy, with cool animations. It's fun to hit things with a fist charged with electricity or spinning the staff like Ip Man (I was going to say Jackie Chan but he's more the type to spin a chair). Numbers wise they just fall behind since lots of AoE ≠ good AoE. But people will get absolutely  if this is brought up. Almost like they never picked a stopwatch and cleared a map a few times or something.

 

Or someone can run a Trapdoor with those and rub the results on my face and I'll retract my words and revise my estimate of the sets.

 

 

As for the -ToHit incarnates the numbers are low and affected by the purple patch. Destiny Interface incarnates have little impact so it's not like it's a huge deal, but the -HP one makes a large impact when fighting AVs and GMs. Possibly the -Res one too, Not for the -res that is useless both against normal mobs or AVs but because of the moderate fire DoT that does make a difference when clearing a map.

Edited July 11, 2022 by Sovera

[Sovera]

2 minutes ago, tidge said:

 

 

I haven't done "spreadsheets", I can't speak at all to staff/elec melee, and I have not ever taken -ToHit Incarnates... but I do have a Dark/ Blaster, and Dark/ has a -ToHit component...  I can believe that -ToHit is over-rated on +4/x8 content, That character has done a LOT of +4/x8 PUG content and some solo (at 35-50, generally incarnate bores me solo) and here are my clearest memories:

• The -ToHit debuff doesn't last long, and only applies to targets hit... and not every target gets hit
• Eventually something hits, hits HARD, or gets a critical control/debuff... and then the adjective "pear-shaped" enters the conversation

With small spawn multipliers, or a teammate (even just one) taking aggro (including taking enemy AoE away from the Blaster), Dark/ is just fine... but chances are that such a  teammate taking the aggro is already capped at most defenses anyway, so -ToHit may only be reducing the opportunities for a cascading defense failure (for them). Having a single teammate doesn't even mean that a 2-man team can't take more than 17 at a time... it's just as important to have someone else there when things go pear-shaped.

 

There is of course a different (Interface Incarnate) issue that -ToHit does not speed up defeat times for enemies; Diamagnetic's %-Regeneration effect on certain 'sacks of HP' creatures is probably more important. I don't solo enough with incarnates in play to make a serious assessment.

 

 

Agreed.

 

But the talk was specific to incarnates. People 'feel' Diamagnetic 'really' makes a difference, but it's a 10 second 5% -ToHit, non stacking, purple patch-ed (so both the 10 second duration and the 5% are impacted), with a side of 50% chance to apply a non stacking 10% (10%, not even 100%) -regen.

 

😄

 

Heck, like I said most Interface options are just weak so there is no need for pitchforks when someone praises or likes or uses Diamagnetic. I just bring it up because of the context of 'feels' and how some options in slotting or power picks are based or defended on those when some testing shows it's not quite so.

[Sovera]

16 hours ago, Mezmera said:

Agree on everything being said.  It really comes down to a bunch of factors.  The base recharge of the power you're looking to slot is the major factor in proc vs sets.  Then yes AT damage modifiers play a factor.  I will usually slot 5 of a good set into powers which those usually carry a damage proc and then add another proc 6th if it seems beneficial. 

 

There's always one long recharging power you can find in your assault powers that you can look to play around with like Crushing Uppercut for my tank for instance, it can house melee, hold and stun procs at an optimal recharge so I look to slot that power just enough with 2 hecatombs to get it in the 90%'s for damage and then slot procs for a bunch of extra damage.

 

Another good one is Energy Transfer, but only on Brutes/Tankers since they don't have a Energy Focus mechanic to give a second fast ET. My Tanker's ET goes from 647 damage with five purples and a second damage proc to 794 with four damage procs. And for no cost either since unless wanting to do slow ETs then ET always comes after TF which has a longer recharge than ET, ET needs thus no recharge, no endurance since it is endurance free, and only a bit of accuracy (since it has higher native accuracy (56% base against +3 instead of 48%) than regular attacks) and maxing out damage. All which is achieved with two slots leaving the rest free.

[Shred Monkey]

Quick disclaimer, I'm pretty hardcore on this subject, so I'm sure many disagree with some of what I'm about to say, but here's my 2-cents.  So when I proc out a power, I slot for accuracy, damage, and procs, with a little endurance reduction.  A typical proc'd out attack might be 2 level 53 acc/dam HamiOs, 1 llevel 53 dam/end D-sync, and 3 damage procs.

 

This will always do more damage then not proc'ing out the power because, well, it's fully slotted for damage AND has 3 procs.  The longer the base recharge, the more likely you are to get a proc, but even short recharge powers do put out more damage when they're slotted this way.

 

The times I don't use this are:

1.  When I need to slot for a set bonus, such as ranged defense.

2.  When I need to slot for recharge to get a full attack chain and I can't get enough global recharge to cover the requirement (honestly, this is rare because I will move on to a different powerset if this happens to to many attack powers).

3.  Brutes... I don't play them much, but honestly those extra damage enhancements don't do much.  I might go with a 4th proc, or just 5 slot a power if the build is tight.

4.  When there just aren't 3 damage procs available.  Ranged attacks often have this problem.

 

Edited July 11, 2022 by Shred Monkey

[Bill Z Bubba]

38 minutes ago, Shred Monkey said:

A typical proc'd out attack might be 2 level 53 acc/dam HamiOs, 1 llevel 53 dam/end D-sync, and 3 damage procs.

 

How do you sustain that against hard targets? Ageless Core? Do you use different builds for exemplaring or just never exemplar or use that +end temp from P2W?

[arcane]

2 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

How do you sustain that against hard targets? Ageless Core? Do you use different builds for exemplaring or just never exemplar or use that +end temp from P2W?

Typically requires 4-5 attacks vs 3 and can’t be sustained with super long recharge stuff like Scrapper snipes, but yeah, Ageless/LotG’s/Hasten, recharge bonuses in your AoE’s etc. I don’t do it as often for Scrappers/Stalkers/Blasters but thinking about converting my DB/Rad to a full proc build.

Edited July 11, 2022 by arcane

[SomeGuy]

ED the damage, proc the rest. Have fun.

[Clave Dark 5]

6 hours ago, SomeGuy said:

ED the damage, proc the rest. Have fun.

I had that going with an earlier version of the build, but I'm finding I really should be chasing set bonuses.  I probably haven't got my toon well done, which is why I hope to post it in the stalker forums soon for solid suggestions.  😃 I mean, I'm OK with this not being a min/max build, but I also don't want to miss out on obviously better options, mostly.  (That said, probably still going to do it to one of the big powers for the hell of it, call me Reckless Ralph)

 

17 hours ago, Shred Monkey said:

A typical proc'd out attack might be 2 level 53 acc/dam HamiOs, 1 llevel 53 dam/end D-sync, and 3 damage procs.

Too expensive!  Plus this is a build to level with, not a farmed-to-50.

Edited July 12, 2022 by Clave Dark 5