Lore: oldest immortal?

[Techwright]

Per the lore, who is the oldest mortal who became immortal and is still around?  I refer specifically to the time up to which the game is set: Issue 27.  I do not refer to eternals or any who/which never were mortal, like the Well.  I'm also not referring to anything future, which I know has Oroboros characters with extremely long lifespans, some of which did have a long lifespan before Paragon City of Issue 27's year.  If there's a Praetorian who is the best fit, that's acceptable.

 

I know Gerhardt Eisenstadt began a mortal life in the 1800s as a Prussian toymaker, though I don't recall the year.  Who is older than him?

[BraveDecoy]

I don't know if it's official canon, but Lady Grey is rumored to be up there in age as well, possibly from the 1800s as well.  

[Grouchybeast]

Will you accept characters who die in the current time during the course of a story arc?  Marcus Valerius was around for a very long time, in one form or another.

[Techwright]

2 hours ago, Grouchybeast said:

Will you accept characters who die in the current time during the course of a story arc?  Marcus Valerius was around for a very long time, in one form or another.

Hmm...that's a tricky one.  On the surface it matches to most of my conditions, however, the souvenir text from the mission arc reads "...convinced him to become part of the creature...".  That creature fits the condition of "who/which were never mortal".  So yeah, tricky.   Made even more so by the realization that "become part of" works for Kheldians as well.

 

I suspect the best way to solve this is to say I'm looking at two categories then:

1. Longevity through supplemental means (gaining power from the Well, creating a cybernetic body, taking a youth serum, cellular shape shifting, etc.)

2. Longevity through the merger of two or more beings.

 

Well done for getting me to rethink all that.

 

So...any takers on either category?  In considering Option #2, I've already discovered one that supposedly has had a longer lifespan than Marcus Valerius, but I'm curious to see if anyone else comes up with the name or something older.

[blue4333]

What about Stheno? The Snakes Villain Group AV - might be the oldest Incarnate in the game dating back to Ancient Greek?

[Lyrium]

7 hours ago, Grouchybeast said:

Will you accept characters who die in the current time during the course of a story arc?  Marcus Valerius was around for a very long time, in one form or another.

If he dies, he is not exactly immortal, is he? 🙂

[Gulbasaur]

Shadowstar, specifically the kheldian/nictus Shadowstar and not the human host Shadowstar, has been around since "Ancient Egypt", which spans a fairly colossal period of human history (some 3000 years can be classed as Ancient Egyptian, as it's a pretty vague label). The "natural" lifespan of a unmerged kheldian is 5-10 years, so one could argue that Shadowstar is the oldest mortal-made-immortal by moving down a line of hosts for millenia as being merged seems to effectively prolongue a kheldian's lifespan indefinitely. 

Edited July 30, 2022 by Gulbasaur

[Grouchybeast]

1 hour ago, Erhnam said:

If he dies, he is not exactly immortal, is he? 🙂

 

It's superheroes.  Immortality is a flexible concept.

[Techwright]

9 hours ago, Erhnam said:

If he dies, he is not exactly immortal, is he? 🙂

 

7 hours ago, Grouchybeast said:

 

It's superheroes.  Immortality is a flexible concept.

 

Hmm, "immortal" can be confusing, especially since others do play fast and loose with the term.  I'd always heard "eternal" as something with no beginning nor end, or something that exists outside of time.  "Immortal" should then be something that has an origin point, but never ends after that, or transcends time at some point.  I don't know that English has a good word for "something that has an origin, but exists indefinitely unless stopped by an external force". Thus a lot of people use "immortal" to represent this as well.  Perhaps "conditional immortality" would be a stop-gap term until a better one is found.

 

8 hours ago, Gulbasaur said:

Shadowstar, specifically the kheldian/nictus Shadowstar and not the human host Shadowstar, has been around since "Ancient Egypt", which spans a fairly colossal period of human history (some 3000 years can be classed as Ancient Egyptian, as it's a pretty vague label). The "natural" lifespan of a unmerged kheldian is 5-10 years, so one could argue that Shadowstar is the oldest mortal-made-immortal by moving down a line of hosts for millenia as being merged seems to effectively prolongue a kheldian's lifespan indefinitely. 

 

You found the one I found.  Good job!  Yeah, so far, it sounds like Shadowstar may be the oldest merged being up to Issue 27, perhaps the oldest of all immortals as this thread defines.  But someone else may discover another.

 

10 hours ago, blue4333 said:

What about Stheno? The Snakes Villain Group AV - might be the oldest Incarnate in the game dating back to Ancient Greek?

A good find.  It fits the first category: longevity through supplementary means.  Is there in-game material to confirm an origin in Ancient Greece?  The Homecoming wiki is remarkably light on details.

 

[Greycat]

Shadowstar's probably the most clear cut.

 

I don't recall if Prometheus was mortal before or not...

[blue4333]

2 hours ago, Techwright said:

A good find.  It fits the first category: longevity through supplementary means.  Is there in-game material to confirm an origin in Ancient Greece?  The Homecoming wiki is remarkably light on details.

 

 

I'm not too familiar on the Snakes lore but I have the hunch that they were added into CoV just because it was cool to fight snake-like mobs in game. I don't think the lore is as fleshed out as it insinuates Stheno to be the actual mythological figure from Greek mythology. So there would probably have been a Medusa or Euryale somewhere in Primal Earth.

[Glacier Peak]

If the extent is Earth originating, then that narrows it down a bit. There are spirits of Orenbregan (how the hell is that spelled lol) origin who are mighty old too. Then there's Shivans and Demons from other dimensions. All that stuff gets you in to the semantics territory though - is it biological immortality or outright, can't die type?

[Outrider_01]

I would say the oldest person in lore is /jranger🤣

[Sakura Tenshi]

13 hours ago, Gulbasaur said:

Shadowstar, specifically the kheldian/nictus Shadowstar and not the human host Shadowstar, has been around since "Ancient Egypt", which spans a fairly colossal period of human history (some 3000 years can be classed as Ancient Egyptian, as it's a pretty vague label). The "natural" lifespan of a unmerged kheldian is 5-10 years, so one could argue that Shadowstar is the oldest mortal-made-immortal by moving down a line of hosts for millenia as being merged seems to effectively prolongue a kheldian's lifespan indefinitely. 

 

Hey, this makes me realize: the badge description for beating Romulus suggests he's the first human-nictus fusion. But Shadowstar's existence means that's patently wrong since she's been around since 'Ancient Egypt' which would mean she'd have to predate Romulus due to him supposedly being the last Western Roman Emperor around 500 AD, and I believe most of the final decades of BC ended 'Ancient Egypt' and began Ptolemaic Egypt. So either Shadowstar has the first nictus-human merger, or if they were a warshade when they got here, it meant they were pursuing another nictus who would have merged with a human earlier.

[Ironblade]

5 hours ago, Techwright said:

A good find.  It fits the first category: longevity through supplementary means.  Is there in-game material to confirm an origin in Ancient Greece?

I don't think so - just the name.

The three Gorgons were Stheno, Euryale and Medusa (who was killed by Perseus).

[Greycat]

55 minutes ago, Sakura Tenshi said:

 

Hey, this makes me realize: the badge description for beating Romulus suggests he's the first human-nictus fusion. But Shadowstar's existence means that's patently wrong since she's been around since 'Ancient Egypt' which would mean she'd have to predate Romulus due to him supposedly being the last Western Roman Emperor around 500 AD, and I believe most of the final decades of BC ended 'Ancient Egypt' and began Ptolemaic Egypt. So either Shadowstar has the first nictus-human merger, or if they were a warshade when they got here, it meant they were pursuing another nictus who would have merged with a human earlier.

 

Yes. We'd be closer to Romulus then, than he would be to the start of Egyptian civilization.  As it is, the Path of the Dark (also nictus related) existed before Romulus. From the Path of the Dark bit on the HCWiki, Imperious sent Romulous with a contingent of men to investigate "dark ones" in some caves. Romulous joins with a nictus, kills the rest of the team, and attempts a coup. (Of course, we fight romulus after he gets Nicticized in the ITF... so the only way that makes sense is if he "joines" - as in allies - with the Nictus, and then is merged later. Which does somewhat fit the dialog, as he sees the Nictus that zaps him as a superior.)

 

If I'm recalling the lore AMA correctly, Shadowstar was a Nictus when she arrived and came around to being what we'd consider a Warshade while on Earth.

[srmalloy]

 

17 hours ago, Erhnam said:

If he dies, he is not exactly immortal, is he? 🙂

Unaging is not deathless. The elves in Middle-Earth are functionally immortal, yet they can be killed.

[Gulbasaur]

Regarding Stheno

17 hours ago, Techwright said:

A good find.  It fits the first category: longevity through supplementary means.  Is there in-game material to confirm an origin in Ancient Greece?  The Homecoming wiki is remarkably light on details.

She drank from the Well of the Furies, and was "known as" a Gorgon and the sister of Medusa. It's stated also that she hid for "centuries", not millenia, but that's probably by the by. Assuming that this Stheno follows the same timeline as Greek Mythology Stheno, she predated Heriot's Theogeny, compiled in c. 700 BCE. 

Regarding Kheldians

 

10 hours ago, Greycat said:

If I'm recalling the lore AMA correctly, Shadowstar was a Nictus when she arrived and came around to being what we'd consider a Warshade while on Earth.

Confirmed here.

 

11 hours ago, Sakura Tenshi said:

this makes me realize: the badge description for beating Romulus suggests he's the first human-nictus fusion

Yep - Roman badge: "You've defeated the great usurper Romulus Augustus, first to merge with Nictus Aliens. With his defeat, you've thwarted his plans to build temporal strongholds throughout time and space."

 

However

 

The wiki says "Romulus Augustus met his end in the past when Sister Airlia convinced Imperious to sacrifice his own life to kill Romulus using a ritual she devised." This is confirmed in Who Will Die? Episode 5 with "Do you feel that, Statesman? It's the same power that killed Imperious and Romulus." 

On 7/30/2022 at 12:01 AM, Techwright said:

Per the lore, who is the oldest mortal who became immortal and is still around?

Not Romulus Augustus, then. He's canonically dead. 

 

Prometheus was my other thought, but was refers to himself as a Titan and was therefore presumably born immortal, and didn't become immortal, per the confines of the original question. 

 

Shadowstar's warshade/former nictus counterpart is still in the runnings for oldest immortal (within a reasonable interpretation of the word, having effectively increased her lifespan by millenia) who is still around. She doesn't seem to leave City Hall since Galaxy City was destroyed, although she's not present in Positron's task force so she clearly didn't stay around for this long by getting into danger. 

 

Stheno, using our world's timelines, is also a candidate, although her Primal counterpart has a significantly different origin than our world's Stheno. Both "Ancient Egypt" and "Ancient Greece" refer to periods of time that are really, really broad and encompass thousands of years, so it's a toss-up between them, really. 

 

Edited July 31, 2022 by Gulbasaur

[Grouchybeast]

8 hours ago, srmalloy said:

 

Unaging is not deathless. The elves in Middle-Earth are functionally immortal, yet they can be killed.

'Immortal' is a tricky concept when you start to think about it.  Do you need to get a signed note sent back in time from the final heat-death of the universe to say that. yeah. they made it there okay without some loophole in their immortality being found?  Is it enough that someone could live forever (in whatever sense 'forever' is being defined)?

[Techwright]

15 hours ago, srmalloy said:

 

Unaging is not deathless. The elves in Middle-Earth are functionally immortal, yet they can be killed.

"Unaging" is probably a better term than the "conditional immortality" I suggested as a stop-gap term.

[Myrmidon]

On 7/30/2022 at 12:46 AM, blue4333 said:

What about Stheno? The Snakes Villain Group AV - might be the oldest Incarnate in the game dating back to Ancient Greek?

That definitely needs to become some new Incarnate-level content.

[Glacier Peak]

Can we get one of the lore-book-clutching nerdy HC Team members input on this topic? I'm genuinely interested in knowing who is the oldest immortal and perhaps why. Well, really why I don't already know lol

 

Edit: oh wait Requiem's Nictus??? Didn't it time travel to find him in that cave?

Edited August 1, 2022 by Glacier Peak

[Clave Dark 5]

I was just coming here to pitch Stheno, but I see I've been beaten to that punch.  I was just puttering about reading up on Snakes in the wiki but it doesn't seem to say for sure if it's a recently assumed name or if she really was THE Stheno (does seem to hint towards it though).  Speaking of, I did notice one thing - when you defeat Snakes, there doesn't seem to be any hospital in their future, Mongoose on Mercy literally gives you a pair of snake skin boots for a souvenir... 

 

I can't recall, when you fight Stheno, do they make it clear or nit if you've outright killed her?  if so, she might not count anyway as that wouldn't fit the "still around" bit.

Edited August 1, 2022 by Clave Dark 5

[Marine X]

If you look at the Timeline of the Path of the Dark on the Homecoming Wiki it states:

Timeline

" Unknown: Arakhn and the Nictus arrive on Earth "

" Ancient Rome: Romulus Augustus.....

 

This seems to indicate that a Joined Nictus named Arakhn may have had a Host before Romulus became joined.

It depends how long before Ancient Rome but it is described as Unknown, but her limited Lifespan would have forced her

to take a Host within 10 Years so who knows.

 

 

In her BIO she is stated to be the product of an Unknown Human Host and an Unknown Nictus, meaning Arakhn is her joined Identity, not her Nictus Name.

However it states that her Age is Unknown, at least 100 Years, seems like a contradiction in the Lore or just the info on her Current Host, who knows. So she may have been around before Ancient Rome, guess it depends on what you give priority.

Edited August 1, 2022 by Marine X

[Techwright]

13 hours ago, Glacier Peak said:

Edit: oh wait Requiem's Nictus??? Didn't it time travel to find him in that cave?

 

If I read you correctly, you're implying that Requiem's Nictus is much older but lived most of it in the future, or at least the future before merging in the cave?