Not Complaining, But...

[Luminara]

4 hours ago, ivanhedgehog said:

If I drive away with your car in the night...you werent using it. theft.

 

Names aren't property in the real world.  Legally, they only receive protection if they're registered as trademarks, and a name has to be associated with a product or service for trademark law to be applicable.  It has to have "brand recognition".  Trademarks can and do lapse.  If a trademarked name or logo is not used for a certain period, if the registration of said name or logo is not filed at regular intervals, the owner loses trademark protection on the name or logo.

 

Within the fiction of the game world, a name does represent a specific character and would be protected, in the fictional game world, but that fiction doesn't apply to real world use.  If you create a character with a specific name and then allow that character to languish without attention for whatever period of time the developers determine to be fair, that represents the same failure to use the name that would occur in the real world.  Logging in before the name is recycled represents filing of registration, and, like in the real world, if you fail to perform the necessary action (logging in at specified intervals), you can no longer claim infringement, misuse or misappropriation of that name.

[ivanhedgehog]

1 hour ago, Luminara said:

 

Names aren't property in the real world.  Legally, they only receive protection if they're registered as trademarks, and a name has to be associated with a product or service for trademark law to be applicable.  It has to have "brand recognition".  Trademarks can and do lapse.  If a trademarked name or logo is not used for a certain period, if the registration of said name or logo is not filed at regular intervals, the owner loses trademark protection on the name or logo.

 

Within the fiction of the game world, a name does represent a specific character and would be protected, in the fictional game world, but that fiction doesn't apply to real world use.  If you create a character with a specific name and then allow that character to languish without attention for whatever period of time the developers determine to be fair, that represents the same failure to use the name that would occur in the real world.  Logging in before the name is recycled represents filing of registration, and, like in the real world, if you fail to perform the necessary action (logging in at specified intervals), you can no longer claim infringement, misuse or misappropriation of that name.

its on a character. it is being used. If it wasnt, you could use it. The devs just changed the definition of used.

[Luminara]

Just now, ivanhedgehog said:

its on a character. it is being used. If it wasnt, you could use it. The devs just changed the definition of used.

 

1 hour ago, Luminara said:

 

Names aren't property in the real world.  Legally, they only receive protection if they're registered as trademarks, and a name has to be associated with a product or service for trademark law to be applicable.  It has to have "brand recognition".  Trademarks can and do lapse.  If a trademarked name or logo is not used for a certain period, if the registration of said name or logo is not filed at regular intervals, the owner loses trademark protection on the name or logo.

 

Within the fiction of the game world, a name does represent a specific character and would be protected, in the fictional game world, but that fiction doesn't apply to real world use.  If you create a character with a specific name and then allow that character to languish without attention for whatever period of time the developers determine to be fair, that represents the same failure to use the name that would occur in the real world.  Logging in before the name is recycled represents filing of registration, and, like in the real world, if you fail to perform the necessary action (logging in at specified intervals), you can no longer claim infringement, misuse or misappropriation of that name.

 

[ivanhedgehog]

10 minutes ago, Luminara said:

 

 

Besides, the names belong to ncsoft. if you want the legal definition.

[seebs]

Vague idea, not totally thought through:

 

Up to once per day, on login, a day is added to the timer for *every* character on your account. Just one day. So logging in to a character sets them to whatever the level-based timer is, but also logging in at all bumps every character on your account by a day. So if you really do play every day, that holds all your characters, but if you only play sometimes, characters you never touch will eventually become reclaimable names.

 

I'm aware that things like this are apparently technically impractical because character-records and account-records don't see each other.

[Luminara]

2 hours ago, ivanhedgehog said:

Besides, the names belong to ncsoft. if you want the legal definition.

 

Also incorrect.  In addition to reminding you that no-one owns names, they can only be trademarked, I'll also point out that the provider of a good or service has no native right to what is created from or within that good or service by a third party.  NC has no more claim of "ownership" of a name which they haven't specifically trademarked than a pencil manufacturer would.  Adobe can't claim ownership of trademarked names, brands or logos simply because they were created in Photoshop.  Computer manufacturers can't claim ownership simply because something was created on a computer they made.  No-one can own a name, branding or logo created by someone else using their goods or services.  No-one.  The legal, societal, cultural and financial ramifications of such would be devastating.

What NC "owns" is your permission to trademark your characters' names (trademark law) and likenesses (copyright law), which you expressly consent to when you accept to the EULA.  And that permission still requires them to file the necessary registration paperwork with the USPTO and comparable agencies in other countries before it has any validity, before it attains exclusivity in regard to ownership of the trademark on the name, brand or logo.

[Troo]

On 8/23/2022 at 11:01 AM, Erratic1 said:

If I was worried about the characters I would have played them far more recently than indicated, and I have no problem with the names going back into circulation if someone wants one I have, but even for ones I might like to keep there ain't no way I'm going to go and hit page after page of characters to weed out even the keepers. 😁

 

 

 

yeah... when a character hits 3 years without login.. BUT even, those are not the initial target of the potential change as was explained.

Thousands of level 1s which were grabbed and never played will be made available. That's all that might be happening somewhere down the line with clear and substantial notification.

 

Edited August 29, 2022 by Troo

[Ironblade]

11 hours ago, ivanhedgehog said:

If I drive away with your car in the night...you werent using it. theft.

 

"I was only taking it for a spin! Why are you so selfish?"

Why do you persist with these completely bogus and irrelevant analogies?

That example is theft.  Losing your name in CoH is not - for the simple reason that YOU DON'T OWN THE NAME.  It's not yours.  The name isn't yours.  The costume design isn't yours.  You own NONE of it.

[kelika2]

I seen this crap in other games like WoW and SWTOR.  Is there a term for name hoarders?

[Herotu]

11 hours ago, ivanhedgehog said:

If I drive away with your car in the night...you werent using it. theft.

 

"I was only taking it for a spin! Why are you so selfish?"

 Well I'm stumped. Where will I find a counter to that argument? I sure hope someone comes up with something ...

5 hours ago, ivanhedgehog said:

Besides, the names belong to ncsoft. if you want the legal definition.

Oh. Thanks.

[ivanhedgehog]

4 hours ago, Luminara said:

 

Also incorrect.  In addition to reminding you that no-one owns names, they can only be trademarked, I'll also point out that the provider of a good or service has no native right to what is created from or within that good or service by a third party.  NC has no more claim of "ownership" of a name which they haven't specifically trademarked than a pencil manufacturer would.  Adobe can't claim ownership of trademarked names, brands or logos simply because they were created in Photoshop.  Computer manufacturers can't claim ownership simply because something was created on a computer they made.  No-one can own a name, branding or logo created by someone else using their goods or services.  No-one.  The legal, societal, cultural and financial ramifications of such would be devastating.

What NC "owns" is your permission to trademark your characters' names (trademark law) and likenesses (copyright law), which you expressly consent to when you accept to the EULA.  And that permission still requires them to file the necessary registration paperwork with the USPTO and comparable agencies in other countries before it has any validity, before it attains exclusivity in regard to ownership of the trademark on the name, brand or logo.

go back and actually read the eula that ncsoft had you agree to EVERY TIME you logged in. They owned all characters in the game. period. you are 100% wrong on that. The name can be owned within the framework of the game, where they are exclusive. if they were not, we wouldnt be having this conversation. In rl you cant own a name. In a game, yes you can. This game still actually belongs to ncsoft and they could shutdown its use at any time.

[cranebump]

20 hours ago, Hyperstrike said:

"Not complaining BUUUUUUT!"

The thing EVERYBODY says...right before they start complaining...

😉

My current favorite, after all the “the game’s too easy” stuff we saw, are some of the comments on the new TF settings — “it’s too hard.”
 

We have unleashed our inner Goldilocks.:-)

[Hyperstrike]

13 minutes ago, cranebump said:

My current favorite, after all the “the game’s too easy” stuff we saw, are some of the comments on the new TF settings — “it’s too hard.”
 

We have unleashed our inner Goldilocks.:-)

But my hair color is mostly graying-not-much-there!

[Paragon Vanguard]

Hah....my many pages of toon names will remain MINE!!! 

I check toons on autopilot at times, and sometimes find myself playing some lower level ones that I forgot about but suddenly seemed like alot of fun. With that said, the names of most my toons are not names people will think of....you know, like Crime Fighter! LOL...kidding, I mean, I do have one named that but....I have some that are actually just names, like Hughe or Luke Minhere, others like Sedulous that others more than likely would not even think of. However, no name will become available, I actually, to some degree, play them all. if I don't, they are deleted. I have curved my alt-a-holism.  

[cranebump]

4 hours ago, Hyperstrike said:

But my hair color is mostly graying-not-much-there!

There’s room for all us Graybelockses (and Baldikockses).:-)

[Six-Six]

4 hours ago, Hyperstrike said:

But my hair color is mostly graying-not-much-there!

Then you must be one of the 3 Bares. 😉

[Marshal_General]

9 hours ago, Six-Six said:

Then you must be one of the 3 Bares. 😉

Or

 

Baldilocks

[Luminara]

11 hours ago, ivanhedgehog said:

go back and actually read the eula that ncsoft had you agree to EVERY TIME you logged in. They owned all characters in the game. period. you are 100% wrong on that.

 

That's copyright law, not trademark law.  They're similar, but not the same.  However, as with trademark law, owning the goods or services which a third party used to create something does not grant the goods or service provider ownership of the creation.  That was the purpose of that section of the EULA: to grant permission for NC to appropriate your creation(s), and they still would have had to register the copyrighted creation(s) for the applicable copyright laws to apply.  NC "owns" Statesman under copyright law.  NC "owns" Positron under copyright law.  NC does not "own" ivanthehedgehog, they own a contract which you "signed" (clicked on the Agree button), granting them permission to use that character and forfeiting your rights to use said character in other mediums.  They would still have to register said character to obtain copyright protection, as evidenced by the 1947 decision by the New York State Supreme Court, in which the Superboy character, which was created by Siegel while working at DC, was deemed to be wholly "owned" by Siegel, even though the character was created while under a work for hire contract with the publisher and within the Superman comic.

 

As with trademark law, owning goods or services used in the creation of an original work does not, under any circumstances, grant that goods or service owner sole, exclusive or irrevocable control over the original work, or, in fact, any control or ownership of the original work unless a contract, endorsed by all parties, specifically grants it to them.  That is what the EULA says and does.  It grants NC the right to claim control of your unique works created within the game and file for copyright and/or trademark protection on those works, if they choose to do so.  They don't own all characters in the game, they own the right to copyright all characters in the game.  Your characters are still yours until NC actively exercises that option.

 

"Ah", you say, "this means my characters' names are protected, I do 'own' them!".  Well, that would be true if you filed for copyright protection on those characters (trademark protection wouldn't apply in that case, because you're seeking protection for the work itself, not the name.  filing for trademark protection would require that the name represent a brand), but if you did file for copyright protection, you wouldn't be able to use those characters in the game.  The EULA prohibits that, to protect NC.  You can't create copyright protected characters in this game, even if you're the copyright holder (re: Marvel coming in and making Marvel characters in the CoH character creator, then filing litigation against Cryptic/NC for copyright infringement, and subsequently admitting in court that they were the ones infringing on their own copyrights, and violating Cryptic/NC's EULA by doing so).  That's the other side of the EULA's protection, as applicable in this context.  By wording it as they did, they accomplished two things.  First, they ensured that they wouldn't have their pants sued off for infringement; and second, they keep your unique works from immediately falling into public domain.  The second is key, and highly relevant to this topic.  Copyright protection is not inherent, it's not a side effect of creating something, it doesn't automatically apply.  You have to register the work to be copyrighted.  George Romero failed to copyright Night of the Living Dead (technically, the distributor failed to do so), and, as a consequence, it immediately went into public domain when it was released in 1968.  Were it not for the wording of the EULA, this is what would happen to all of your characters in Co*.  But because the EULA gives NC the permission to seek copyright protection on all characters, at its discretion, your characters are kept out of public domain.  Until either you or NC pursues protection on your characters, they exist in a Limbo between protection and public domain, thereby preventing yet another company from swooping in and "stealing" your unique works from you, because you gave NC permission to pursue copyright status on your works and they have "dibs", unless you revoke permission by deleting the character, at which time you can recreate the character outside of the game and copyright it, as long as you do it before someone else does.  Until your works in this game are copyrighted, they're neither yours nor theirs, but also not anyone else's... and the names of those characters also don't belong to anyone exclusively, as they're not actually attached to copyrighted works, and don't represent a brand (for which trademark law would be applicable).

 

 

11 hours ago, ivanhedgehog said:

The name can be owned within the framework of the game

 

Again, that's moving over to copyright law.  Used in conjunction with the character, the name is part of a whole creation, thus, yes, subject to copyright law if the character is copyrighted.  Used separately from the character, unless the name is part of a copyrighted work, it falls under trademark law.  Batman is copyrighted and trademarked.  Superman is copyrighted and trademarked.  These are identifiable throughout the world and distinctly attached to specific, unique works which enjoy full legal protection.  Your level 1 placeholder character with a name you want to reserve, your level 6 character you haven't looked at in 9 months, your level 19 character gathering dust on the 12th page of a character list, those aren't identifiable, they're not universally recognized, they're not copyrighted or trademarked by you, and thus, their names aren't protected by copyright law or trademark law.  Nor does NC "own" them, as they haven't filed the necessary paperwork to legally transfer that "ownership" into their hands.  All NC owns is that agreement between you and them which grants them permission to do so and denies third parties the right to do so.

 

12 hours ago, ivanhedgehog said:

In rl you cant own a name. In a game, yes you can.

 

Nope.  There are plenty of multiplayer games which permits multiple people to use the same name.  No one person "owns" the name, no-one can claim infringement if someone else uses it, and everyone is uniquely identified in a different way (alphanumeric characters attached, @accountname attached, et cetera).  And plenty more games which allow names to be unique, but still require players to perform some action in order to retain them, just like real trademark and copyright laws.  Failing to renew trademark or copyright registration at regular intervals results in loss of protection.  Failing to log a character in once in a while results in lost of protection.  Same thing, for the same reasons.  You don't "own" a name here, you control it, and when the name release system is enabled, you'll only control it for as long as you make the token effort to retain that control.  If the name is that important to you, log the character in.

[High_Beam]

I quite literally feel smarter and yet dumber at the same time. after reading that.  Thanks.  So much for my totally useless Information Systems Management degree 🙂  Mom said I should have been a lawyer.

[Marshal_General]

I am curious about how that applies to fanfiction? I read a lot of Mass Effect fanfiction and have always wondered who owns what. I know the writer doesn't own the IP, setting and so forth, but what about the writer's original characters and stories?

[Luminara]

3 hours ago, Marshal_General said:

I am curious about how that applies to fanfiction? I read a lot of Mass Effect fanfiction and have always wondered who owns what. I know the writer doesn't own the IP, setting and so forth, but what about the writer's original characters and stories?

 

The author owns the story itself, any unique characters created and any settings not portrayed or mentioned in the game/film/whatever, but he/she can't profit off of the work without paying the owner of the copyrighted work the story is set in, or that owner's permission (some copyright holders will happily allow others to use their material.  some even invite others to do so, for free (or nearly free).  Stephen King's famous "Dollar Deal" has launched many directors' careers (Dollar Babies), for instance.  and sometimes, they're only holding that copyright to prevent large corporations from swallowing their work, retaining it to ensure that "the little guy" can use it freely.  this is why things like the Creative Commons License exist, it's nearly impossible release something and not have it copyrighted, because someone else can pick it up and start running with it without the original creator's permission.  releasing it under a CCL or similar license, though, ensures that it's always available for anyone, for free).  Continuing the use of Mass Effect, if I decide to write a novel about a Quarian on her Pilgrimage and the ensuing adventures, I'm free to share that with the world, as long as I don't make a dime.  If I want to make money off of it, I need Bioware's permission, or whoever owns Bioware's permission, or I need to arrange and sign a licensing agreement with that entity.

 

Anything which has entered common use on a widespread basis can be used, as well. You can refer to someone as a Superman, and intend that to mean exactly what it sounds like.  You can use a phrase like, "Superman punch!" (spoken in Glass), because that's calling on a well-known source which is prevalent in the public consciousness.  You can refer to Superman when two characters are speaking, or a character is thinking, for the same reason, it's referencing something widely known and understood.  Those are legitimate.  You can't print t-shirts with the Superman logo and sell them.  You can't write, ink and sell a comic and have Superman show up in it (unless it's satire or a parody).  Those are strictly prohibited, unless you negotiate a license or otherwise obtain explicit permission from DC/Warner.

 

Going back to the Mass Effect reference, if I publish that Quarian novel for sales, I'm liable to be sued.  Quarians are not mine.  The Migrant Fleet is not mine.  Element Zero is not mine.  Omni-tool is not mine.  Things I used without permission from the owner and/or without negotiating compensation for the owner make me responsible for damages, court fees, fines and other levies.  One of the primary reasons for copyright law existence is to ensure that the owner of copyrighted work is fairly compensated.

 

Now, fan fiction sidesteps all of that because it's free.  Or, at least, what I know of it indicates that it's given away for free (i avoid reading practically anything written online, these forums being an exception.  most people can't spell, believe punctuation is "SANTANCE SEESINING", and wouldn't be able to properly construct a sentence to save their lives.  reading bad English makes me angry, and i don't need to be angry at this point in my life).  There's no profit being made, there's no money being channeled away from the copyright owner, so there's no violation of copyright law.  The copyright holder can still issue a C&D, but they rarely do because it's essentially free advertising.  Some copyright holders will even launch litigation if they imagine their copyright is being violated, having read or seen something with a bare semblance to their work, others just shrug and move on to the next project.  But this is also why we have courts to deal with copyright issues, they're dispassionate and unbiased (in theory... sometimes less so in practice).

 

If, or, as often as not, when one is accused of violating copyright law, changing the offending material typically satisfies the legal requirements to avoid penalties.  If I change my Quarian to a Zorgoquatoidian, the Migrant Fleet to a wandering planet, Element Zero to refined dostuffium, and omni-tools to universal pliers, I'm in the clear.  My story is less recognizable, it'll probably end up with the millions of other bad "Something: A Novel" books languishing at the bottom of Amazon's sales charts, but anything I do make off of it would be mine and I wouldn't have legal hassles to deal with.

 

Does that sufficiently answer the question?

[High_Beam]

New power set: Alternate Tools

 

Universal Pliers

Acoustic Ratchet

Slightly Pious Hand Bomb

Shooting Slice Blade

Orange Walker BB Rifle

Fairly Large Gun

 

[Grouchybeast]

2 hours ago, Luminara said:

If, or, as often as not, when one is accused of violating copyright law, changing the offending material typically satisfies the legal requirements to avoid penalties.  If I change my Quarian to a Zorgoquatoidian, the Migrant Fleet to a wandering planet, Element Zero to refined dostuffium, and omni-tools to universal pliers, I'm in the clear.  My story is less recognizable, it'll probably end up with the millions of other bad "Something: A Novel" books languishing at the bottom of Amazon's sales charts, but anything I do make off of it would be mine and I wouldn't have legal hassles to deal with.

 

Or if you're very vey lucky, you wrote 50 Shades of Grey and now you're a multimillionaire.  You never know!

[Herotu]

 

15 hours ago, High_Beam said:

New power set: Alternate Tools

 

Universal Pliers

Acoustic Ratchet

Slightly Pious Hand Bomb

Shooting Slice Blade

Orange Walker BB Rifle

Fairly Large Gun

 

These are my next character names! 😉 

 

Save us, Fairly Large Gun! You're our only hope!

Edited August 31, 2022 by Herotu

[pawstruck]

Are there really that many people out there clamoring for names? I almost always get what I want or some slight variation, but... thanks for your generosity, I guess.

 

P.S.: I really do not understand people who feel the need to mention ignoring someone, much less in their sig... Is the name "Narcissus Man" taken? 🤐