Sins of the Devs are visited upon the players

[Excraft]

10 hours ago, arcane said:

You REALLY need to go outside homie. I’m worried about you.

 

LMAO!  I don't need to go anywhere, thanks.  The double standards here are blatantly obvious to the point of being an absolute joke.  And yeah, the ass kissers/nerf AE crowd are totally intolerant of different opinions.  Feel free to keep denying it though. 

[ForeverLaxx]

8 hours ago, Ukase said:

I talk "down" to anyone who lowers themselves with a lack of respect shown towards me. I simply would not accept that trash talk in real life, nor will I accept it in game. I have no issues about putting knots on someone's forehead if they don't give me the respect I deserve. Life is too short to be around people who disrespect you. 

So you're thin-skinned, opinionated, and believe you "deserve" respect merely for existing in a space. It's no wonder everything gets under your skin. I'm now no longer confused about other posts you've made regarding other topics.

[Veracor]

I think there's more toxicity in this thread than what actually exists in game.

 

Like seriously, Toxic Blast when?

[The_Warpact]

Seems like I have a follower in @TorduVide, purposely went through the whole thread 20 some odd pages to down thumb me on ever post lol.  Fan bois and cheerleaders they get petty on stuff lol.

[Glacier Peak]

1 hour ago, The_Warpact said:

Seems like I have a follower in @TorduVide, purposely went through the whole thread 20 some odd pages to down thumb me on ever post lol.  Fan bois and cheerleaders they get petty on stuff lol.

 

Haha me too, looks like we have fans!

 

[America's Angel]

On 9/10/2022 at 1:47 AM, Saikochoro said:

100% agree. Early on I joined in with the nothing being done is bad crowd. I then felt what some of the others felt in being shouted down for having unfavorable opinions. I then observed that there is a double standard applied especially in beta testing. Those that agree with all the devs decisions often get a pass even when being antagonistic. Those that disagree with the devs are moderated.
 

It’s really not the actual changes that have caused me to scale back my interest in the game. It is the double standard that is applied and the backlash from part of the community and the devs themselves when people express discontent. 
 

That and the fun police mentality.

 

To each their own though. I’m genuinely happy for the people that still very much enjoy the game and the direction it has taken. 

Sorry to hear you're going off the game. I remember your feedback in the Rune of Protection thread being especially thoughtful & thorough.

For what it's worth, I've had suggestions of mine added to the game as well as changes rolled back after providing feedback...but I've also seen stuff added to the game that I disagreed with, and have had posts of mine deleted from feedback threads. It's just the nature of internet forums. Pays to try and not be too sensitive about it. Consider that 90% of focused feedback thread posts are:

• Players arguing with each other without testing anything.
• Players asking the devs to explain the reason for the changes, again without testing anything.
• Players giving feedback...on the patch notes.
• Dev haters and Dev fanboys Ben Shapiroing each other whilst giving the vaguest of nods to the topic of the thread.

I imagine it's wearying for the dev team to have to sift through all that noise to find feedback based on actually testing the changes. This is why your Rune feedback stood out, to the point where I can recall it one year on. That's how rare actual playtested feedback is.

 

And yes the dev fanboys + funpolice can be irritating. Early on in Page 4's development, I pointed out that removing vet XP from the AE would likely lead to a lot of PvPers (including myself) quitting the game, as we would now have to unlock our incarnates for our PvP characters by doing regular PvE content, rather than getting them quickly via farming. I was swamped by dev fanboys/funpolice who told me to deal with it. (I believe "earn it like everyone else" was said at one point.) The devs responded, we discussed it amidst all these fanboys telling me I was Playing Wrong, and the devs ultimately agreed with me. The result was the Temporal Warriors and free incarnates for PvP.

 

So, yeah, don't worry about the fanboys. They have no impact on anything. "The devs can do no wrong" is just as useless, and just as ignored, as "everything the devs do is wrong" when it comes to feedback.

 

In my experience the dev team do listen to feedback from players willing to compromise and discuss ideas. Case in point: a few years back I was rude to Powerhouse. I can't remember the specifics, but I think he added something to PvP that I disagreed with and my reaction was to critique him/his game knowledge, rather than critique the change. As a consequence, we pretty much didn't talk for a year. I regret doing it, and had a word with myself to not be such an asshole in future, and to try and compromise rather than demand everything fit the One True Way I believe the game should be. Cut to now: Powerhouse has no problem talking about balance stuff with me. He's even pinged me a few times about PvP-related balance tweaks. Nothing changed other than how I behaved.

 

So, moral of the story is that I changed how I behaved, treated others with respect, was willing to compromise, and stopped acting like such a bloody know it all, and as a consequence the devs started listening. I'd urge others in this thread to do the same. (Not you, you're fine Saikochoro. More of a general comment.)

 

One other thing worth mentioning is the Closed Beta discord/forums. They're worth joining. They allow players to test new changes and provide feedback on them before they become too set in stone. (Which is often, but not always, the case in Open Beta.)

Edited September 11, 2022 by America's Angel

[MoonSheep]

1 hour ago, The_Warpact said:

Seems like I have a follower in @TorduVide, purposely went through the whole thread 20 some odd pages to down thumb me on ever post lol.  Fan bois and cheerleaders they get petty on stuff lol.

 

don’t worry mate he did the same here also, the AE crowd will do anything to shut down debate 

[Neiska]

1 minute ago, MoonSheep said:

don’t worry mate he did the same here also, the AE crowd will do anything to shut down debate 

 

And I've been mass-thumbed down as well. So don't try to paint that as a "pro AE crowd" thing. And that bit of snark at the end was really unnecessary. I mean I can say something like "Just as the anti-farmers will do anything to shut down AE" but that is hardly respectful or even productive.

 

If you want respect you have to give it, much like many things in life. Food for thought.

[ForeverLaxx]

1 hour ago, America's Angel said:

without testing anything

"Without testing" according to who? Not agreeing with the direction of certain actions doesn't mean they weren't tested beforehand. It's the summary dismissal of negative feedback under the basis of "they must not have tested it, otherwise they'd love this change" that I also take umbrage with regarding "feedback" threads. Do you make people expressing their love for a change test them to be positive that they love it, or is this sentiment only reserved for the naysayers? I'm not going to put "and by the way, my testing agrees with me" at the end of every post.

 

1 hour ago, America's Angel said:

They allow players to test new changes and provide feedback on them before they become too set in stone. (Which is often, but not always, the case in Open Beta.)

Exactly in line with my point in a previous post. Once it hits Open Beta, it's basically a done deal. Outside of rushed changes or those with huge amounts of negative feedback in general (and even then, it usually only results in a reduction in severity rather than removal), what's the point of the Feedback threads if it's essentially "set in stone?"

 

I love this game and I'm thankful for the dev team putting in their own time and resources to keep it running so I can continue to enjoy it, but I don't much enjoy the illusion of input.

Edited September 11, 2022 by ForeverLaxx

[Neiska]

Whelp, this thread is likely about to be closed again.

 

Patch 4 sure has brought out the best in the community.

[Excraft]

1 hour ago, America's Angel said:

So, yeah, don't worry about the fanboys. They have no impact on anything. "The devs can do no wrong" is just as useless, and just as ignored, as "everything the devs do is wrong" when it comes to feedback.

 

But they do have an impact.  The chosen few are driving the direction of the development staff here to the detriment of everyone else who may play differently.  See your own comments -

 

1 hour ago, America's Angel said:

For what it's worth, I've had suggestions of mine added to the game as well as changes rolled back after providing feedback...but I've also seen stuff added to the game that I disagreed with, and have had posts of mine deleted from feedback threads.

 

Honest question, how many of the posts you've made that got deleted were critical of changes being made?  I already have a good idea what the answer is.

 

If they don't want to hear criticism of their changes, then don't ask for feedback.  Just let the inner circle do the play testing and be done with it.  The community at large isn't brought into the discussion about potential changes, they can only discuss it when changes are put onto the forums for feedback.  

 

51 minutes ago, MoonSheep said:

don’t worry mate he did the same here also, the AE crowd will do anything to shut down debate 

 

Yeah you have that backwards.  How many of the pro-nerf posts are being deleted/hidden vs the pro-AE ones?

 

43 minutes ago, ForeverLaxx said:

I love this game and I'm thankful for the dev team putting in their own time and resources to keep it running so I can continue to enjoy it, but I don't much enjoy the illusion of input.

 

Could not agree more.

 

2 hours ago, The_Warpact said:

Seems like I have a follower in @TorduVide, purposely went through the whole thread 20 some odd pages to down thumb me on ever post lol.  Fan bois and cheerleaders they get petty on stuff lol.

 

Honest question, what does it matter?  Some anonymous asshole on the internet you'll never meet that has no impact on you and your life gave you a thumbs down on an internet forum.  Who cares?  Let them be a jerk. 

[espectro]

3 hours ago, The_Warpact said:

Seems like I have a follower in @TorduVide, purposely went through the whole thread 20 some odd pages to down thumb me on ever post lol.  Fan bois and cheerleaders they get petty on stuff lol.

it's the flirting with that Luminara computer face thing. This ain't Tinder brah

[America's Angel]

50 minutes ago, ForeverLaxx said:

"Without testing" according to who? Not agreeing with the direction of certain actions doesn't mean they weren't tested beforehand. It's the summary dismissal of negative feedback under the basis of "they must not have tested it, otherwise they'd love this change" that I also take umbrage with regarding "feedback" threads. Do you make people expressing their love for a change to test them to be positive that they love it, or is this sentiment only reserved for the naysayers? I'm not going to put "and by the way, my testing agrees with me" at the end of every post.

"Not tested" has nothing to do with whether a player does/does not like a change. It simply means that their feedback is indistinguishable from someone who has just read the patch notes and passed comment.

 

All feedback is read. But the feedback that has a better chance of making an impact usually follows this format:

 

[Explanation of testing methods + results]

[Comments on the results]

 

The feedback can be positive or negative, as long as it follows the focused feedback guidelines.

 

50 minutes ago, ForeverLaxx said:

Exactly in line with my point in a previous post. Once it hits Open Beta, it's basically a done deal. Outside of rushed changes or those with huge amounts of negative feedback in general (and even then, it usually only results in a reduction in severity rather than removal), what's the point of the Feedback threads if it's essentially "set in stone?"

 

I love this game and I'm thankful for the dev team putting in their own time and resources to keep it running so I can continue to enjoy it, but I don't much enjoy the illusion of input.

The point of open beta/focused feedback threads is mostly bug/stability testing as well as feedback from the wider(more casual) playerbase. As both you and I have said, stuff does get rolled back there. Just not as frequently as closed beta. Hence me saying players who want to test changes before they become too set in stone should join closed beta.

 

If you don't want to, that's fine. But that's a choice you're making.

 

3 minutes ago, Excraft said:

But they do have an impact.  The chosen few are driving the direction of the development staff here to the detriment of everyone else who may play differently.  See your own comments -

 

Honest question, how many of the posts you've made that got deleted were critical of changes being made?  I already have a good idea what the answer is.

 

If they don't want to hear criticism of their changes, then don't ask for feedback.  Just let the inner circle do the play testing and be done with it.  The community at large isn't brought into the discussion about potential changes, they can only discuss it when changes are put onto the forums for feedback.  

You are trying to paint a 2022 Team Red vs Team Blue scenario here. (Where one side is the devs and everyone in closed beta, and the other side is everyone else.) That's just...not how it works. We're all on the same side. I argue with the dev team constantly on the closed beta discord. I'm extremely critical of changes I don't think are good. That's weird behavior for a cheerleader, right?

 

The only thing that separates me and you is that I know how to give feedback (yes, including negative feedback) in a way that will be received well. If you're not prepared to do the same, then the issue is with you.

 

See my anecdote about Powerhouse, above. I used to behave like you. It got me nowhere. I changed my approach and the dev team are now listening.

 

There is nothing stopping you from doing the same.

[MoonSheep]

5 minutes ago, America's Angel said:

The only thing that separates me and you is that I know how to give feedback (yes, including negative feedback) in a way that will be received well. If you're not prepared to do the same, then the issue is with you.

 

See my anecdote about Powerhouse, above. I used to behave like you. It got me nowhere. I changed my approach and the dev team are now listening.

 

There is nothing stopping you from doing the same.

 

you have a great point and have certainly shown others how to contribute to such threads. i was caught up in the tit for tat arguing on the AE megathread until i saw your detailed, numerical testing AE posts

 

it certainly helped me think of how best to argue the benefits of a particular position - e.g. the small test i did to show how even rare IO sets can be earned in a matter of minutes as the basis for my call for higher prices or lower availability

 

it can be easy to get caught up in the emotions on the forum - posters have the appearance of NPCs and we all have strong feelings about the game

[golstat2003]

15 hours ago, Grouchybeast said:

 

For example, avoid playing PVP games in the future, an approach that's worked brilliantly for me.

 
Pretty much this. When people start talking stupid my do something about it is to leave the zone and not bother with the idiocy for months. Life is to short to deal with stupidity in a video game. If I’m on a team and that’s happening in PVE, guess what I do: I find another team. Ding Ding.

 

I don’t tolerate nonsense in a game I come to for relaxing. Life is too short and real life full of enough of that nonsense in the first place.

[ForeverLaxx]

41 minutes ago, America's Angel said:

"Not tested" has nothing to do with whether a player does/does not like a change.

And yet, it's only posted in response to negative feedback. I don't actually care if all "untested" feedback is ignored because it doesn't follow some form letter layout. My point was that the only time you ever see "go test it" is when someone says they don't like it. Maybe the dev team doesn't care about optics, but if that were true, why have Feedback threads at all?

 

I'll continue to express my negative feedback for changes I don't like. I can run the numbers, compare the data I have to the Live server, experience a discrepancy that I already knew was there based on said data, and post my objections. Sometimes I'll object to the reasoning for a change because of how the rest of the game works (Rune of Protection's unneeded nerf, for example, or Toggle Suppression's original 8 second lockout). I'm not going to write up a dissertation for it when the process I used can be easily extrapolated based upon the feedback I'm providing. I rarely provide positive feedback because there's no point in doing so regarding changes already on the table. Those changes are happening if everyone loves it and there's nothing to talk about beyond bug fixes. The problem I have is that negative feedback has so many levers used to dismiss it that it feels similarly pointless. I don't particularly care how many times I'm told "they read everything" when reading it isn't the problem I have with what's done with it.

 

I'm not naive enough, young enough, selfish enough, or stupid enough to think that something should be changed just because I personally don't like it. But I'm also not blind enough to ignore what's so painfully obvious regarding Feedback and the favoritism surrounding certain posters with regards to it. Just like with the Live Dev Team, if it was posted to the Test Server as a major update, it was going to happen. Maybe stop calling them "Feedback" threads so I can stop pretending I have a voice I guess. You could not pay me to get into a Discord server, either. I have zero interest in yet another "Discord community" spamming me for attention.

Edited September 11, 2022 by ForeverLaxx

[America's Angel]

42 minutes ago, MoonSheep said:

 

you have a great point and have certainly shown others how to contribute to such threads. i was caught up in the tit for tat arguing on the AE megathread until i saw your detailed, numerical testing AE posts

 

it certainly helped me think of how best to argue the benefits of a particular position - e.g. the small test i did to show how even rare IO sets can be earned in a matter of minutes as the basis for my call for higher prices or lower availability

 

it can be easy to get caught up in the emotions on the forum - posters have the appearance of NPCs and we all have strong feelings about the game

Glad you found it helpful. And doubly glad it encouraged you to test it for yourself!

 

 

7 minutes ago, ForeverLaxx said:

And yet, it's only posted in response to negative feedback. I don't actually care if all "untested" feedback is ignored because it doesn't follow some form letter layout. My point was that the only time you ever see "go test it" is when someone says they don't like it. Maybe the dev team doesn't care about optics, but if that were true, why have Feedback threads at all?

 

I'll continue to express my negative feedback for changes I don't like. I can run the numbers, compare the data I have to the Live server, experience a discrepancy that I already knew was there based on said data, and post my objections. Sometimes I'll object to the reasoning for a change because of how the rest of the game works (Rune of Protection's unneeded nerf, for example, or Toggle Suppression's original 8 second lockout). I'm not going to write up a dissertation for it when the process I used can be easily extrapolated based upon the feedback I'm providing. I rarely provide positive feedback because there's no point in doing so regarding changes already on the table. Those changes are happening if everyone loves it and there's nothing to talk about beyond bug fixes. The problem I have is that negative feedback has so many levers used to dismiss it that it feels similarly pointless. I don't particularly care how many times I'm told "they read everything" when reading it isn't the problem I have with what's done with it.

 

I'm not naive enough, young enough, selfish enough, or stupid enough to think that something should be changed just because I personally don't like it. But I'm also not blind enough to ignore what's so painfully obvious regarding Feedback and the favoritism surrounding certain posters with regards to it. Just like with the Live Dev Team, if it was posted to the Test Server as a major update, it was going to happen. Maybe stop calling them "Feedback" threads so I can stop pretending I have a voice I guess. You could not pay me to get into a Discord server, either. I have zero interest in yet another "Discord community" spamming me for attention.

Fair enough. You do you.

 

I do think you're confusing correlation for cause, though. If you line up all the positive feedback and all the negative feedback side-by-side, a higher percentage of the negative feedback is going to contain disruptive/offensive elements. (Due to the nature of complaining vs complimenting.) Because of this, the end result is that a higher percentage of negative comments will get purged vs positive ones.

[Ukase]

12 hours ago, ForeverLaxx said:

So you're thin-skinned, opinionated, and believe you "deserve" respect merely for existing in a space. It's no wonder everything gets under your skin. I'm now no longer confused about other posts you've made regarding other topics.

Opinionated, yes. Absolutely. And yes, I believe everyone deserves respect merely for existing - until they behave in such a way that illustrates they don't deserve it. Why should I expect any less for myself than what I would give everyone else? 

 

[tidge]

3 hours ago, MoonSheep said:

 

don’t worry mate he did the same here also, the AE crowd will do anything to shut down debate 

 

2 hours ago, Neiska said:

 

And I've been mass-thumbed down as well. So don't try to paint that as a "pro AE crowd" thing. And that bit of snark at the end was really unnecessary. I mean I can say something like "Just as the anti-farmers will do anything to shut down AE" but that is hardly respectful or even productive.

 

If you want respect you have to give it, much like many things in life. Food for thought.

 

(T)Rolling down-thumb on every post: Is it more like Farming or PVP sniping?

 

[ivanhedgehog]

3 hours ago, MoonSheep said:

 

don’t worry mate he did the same here also, the AE crowd will do anything to shut down debate 

You seem to find the down thumb a lot also. I use it occasionally. You are guilty of trying to shut down the debate, although the like/dislike system is pretty pointless. I fully expect to get thumbs down on this, mainly from the same few people. I am desolate at their displeasure.

[Ukase]

15 hours ago, battlewraith said:

Pvp builds are more strict than pve builds, but  there's plenty of info on the forums about what to build for. 

It doesn't matter, because there's no content to play with that build. The only "practice" you get is baptism by fire in the pvp zone against other players. And that's what I don't want. I'd rather practice in missions, understanding how fast/slow recharge, regen etc is when in pvp. 

I don't want to have to toggle on again and again learning it. I would consider it a failure each and every time. There's no fun in that. I would prefer to run the content from 1-50 with those same rules on my build and then go into pvp having a better understanding of what my character can handle, and what it can't. 

The rules are different in pvp zones. I don't know what idiot decided to change our stats upon entry, but it was a bad move. I know why they did it - I just disagree with it. 

It is what it is. If it were fun, I'd do it. It's not fun for me, so I'm not going to do it, if I can avoid it. 

I've already seen from some in this post that they like talking trash. They think it's fun. And that's fine for them - but it's not for me. I find it much like the barking of a  Chihuahua. 

 

A lot of fuss over very little. It's kind of like a cut scene in a task force or iTrial when you already know the story. 

[PeregrineFalcon]

5 hours ago, The_Warpact said:

Seems like I have a follower in @TorduVide, purposely went through the whole thread 20 some odd pages to down thumb me on ever post lol.  Fan bois and cheerleaders they get petty on stuff lol.

It wasn't just you. He did it to a bunch of people. I'm seeing his thumbs down in tons of threads that are over a year old.

 

It looks like he's some angry PvPer who thinks that a thumbs down will hurt us in some way. Personally, I take a thumbs down as a badge of honor, much like a warning point. Both say to me "the other person couldn't admit that they're wrong so they had to take action to try to silence me."

[arcane]

At least this TorduVide chap might tire out after a day or two. My stalker has been obsessed with my posts for months it feels like.

[Excraft]

2 hours ago, America's Angel said:

You are trying to paint a 2022 Team Red vs Team Blue scenario here. (Where one side is the devs and everyone in closed beta, and the other side is everyone else.) That's just...not how it works. We're all on the same side.

 

Nope, not at all what I'm trying to do.  Funny that you claim "we're all on the same side", yet it's more than clear that's not the case in how rules are applied here.  But I understand you need to sugar coat everything so you don't lose your access, so no need to explain.  I get it.

 

2 hours ago, America's Angel said:

The only thing that separates me and you is that I know how to give feedback (yes, including negative feedback) in a way that will be received well. If you're not prepared to do the same, then the issue is with you.

 

Uh huh.

[The_Warpact]

21 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

It wasn't just you. He did it to a bunch of people. I'm seeing his thumbs down in tons of threads that are over a year old.

 

It looks like he's some angry PvPer who thinks that a thumbs down will hurt us in some way. Personally, I take a thumbs down as a badge of honor, much like a warning point. Both say to me "the other person couldn't admit that they're wrong so they had to take action to try to silence me."

Meh...the down thumb don't bug me, it's the not responding to anything specific that irritates me. If you have an issue then be vocal and we can hash it out. If not and you come on to troll well you know some people are that type of cat.😉