OF THE LATE TAUNT NERFS (aka Can we please stop the push towards "Trinity Gaming"?)

[WhiteNightingale]

TL;DR: The fear of fire farms is more detrimental to the game than fire farms themselves

 

Long version:

So, now as long as a mob has a ranged attack, taunt no longer compels it towards melee, so they stay put and fire from afar for at least the first 20 seconds, denying tankers their bonuses-by-surrounding-mobs, so now teams need either a healer or Wormhole to stack all mobs around tank so they don't die by firing squad. Also, taunts don't hold for long at range, so tank is no longer protecting the team against at least half the mobs every encounter.

 

Can you see where this is going?

 

This is called Triniy Gaming. It predicts that all teams in every game ever must be "tank/heal/DPS or GTFO" and tryhards everywhere love to force it everywhere (they forced it on Champions Online and where is that game now?). Trinity Gaming is how default Asian fantasy MMOs work... not superheroes.

 

The simplicity in gaming is what made CoH great and unique, let's not take that from it, especially since fire farmers will ALWAYS find a way to game the system anyway. Draconian security only harms honest users, never the actual criminals, this has always been the way since the 90s and one would imagine people would have learned by now.

 

Thanks for your attention.

[Lazarillo]

Taunt wasn't changed, though.  It still has its -Range component and still tends to incline enemies closer towards you.  The aggro changes should only cause enemies to peel off and stick to ranged if you're already at max aggro, which under the old rules, would still mean they'd be attacking your buddies instead of you.

[WhiteNightingale]

30 minutes ago, Lazarillo said:

Taunt wasn't changed, though.  It still has its -Range component and still tends to incline enemies closer towards you.

 

Incline is not compel. I've had days to notice the difference, both as tank and as team support. None of which over aggro cap. The changes are there.

[Lazarillo]

8 minutes ago, WhiteNightingale said:

Incline is not compel.

Pre-"page 4" wasn't compel either.  The fact remains that nothing about taunt was changed until/unless you go over the aggro cap.

[Astralock]

14 minutes ago, WhiteNightingale said:

 

Incline is not compel. I've had days to notice the difference, both as tank and as team support. None of which over aggro cap. The changes are there.

 

All that's changed is that the mobs outside of the first seventeen aggroed will hurl ranged attacks at you.  As soon as a spot opens up in the seventeen, they'll move into melee.  Before, those outside of the first seventeen aggroed would just look at you funny.  Taunt, in and of itself, has not changed.

[PeregrineFalcon]

1 hour ago, WhiteNightingale said:

This is called Triniy Gaming.

This game launched with a trinity. One of the AT's is even called Tanker. That should have clued you in back in 2004. It's a little late to be complaining about a trinity now.

 

1 hour ago, WhiteNightingale said:

It predicts that all teams in every game ever must be "tank/heal/DPS or GTFO" and tryhards everywhere love to force it everywhere (they forced it on Champions Online and where is that game now?).

I love how "tryhard" is now an insult. Like people trying hard to do something successfully is somehow a bad thing.

 

And Champions Online was dead in the water with the Day One Patch. Forcing a trinity onto the game had nothing to do it with.

 

1 hour ago, WhiteNightingale said:

Trinity Gaming is how default Asian fantasy MMOs work... not superheroes.

Oh really?

 

Everquest launched with a trinity in 1999. So did Star Wars Galaxies in 2003. Same with City of Heroes and World of Warcraft in 2004. Same with Rift and SWTOR in 2012.

 

So tell me again how a trinity is something only found in Asian fantasy MMOs.

 

No wait, don't bother. Nothing that you wrote in the OP is true and it's likely that your response won't be either. Improvise, adapt and overcome.

[Sovera]

6 hours ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

I love how "tryhard" is now an insult. Like people trying hard to do something successfully is somehow a bad thing.

 

How dare you try hard at something?? You should just casually expect things to fall on your lap. Like doing good damage, or soloing hard stuff.

[Luminara]

9 hours ago, WhiteNightingale said:

So, now as long as a mob has a ranged attack, taunt no longer compels it towards melee, so they stay put and fire from afar for at least the first 20 seconds, denying tankers their bonuses-by-surrounding-mobs, so now teams need either a healer or Wormhole to stack all mobs around tank so they don't die by firing squad. Also, taunts don't hold for long at range, so tank is no longer protecting the team against at least half the mobs every encounter.

 

Can you see where this is going?

 

This is called Triniy Gaming.

 

If tank are obviated, doesn't that mean it's not trinity?

 

9 hours ago, WhiteNightingale said:

fire farmers will ALWAYS find a way to game the system anyway.

 

If they try hard?

You didn't think this through, did you?

[UltraAlt]

9 hours ago, WhiteNightingale said:

now teams need either a healer or Wormhole to stack all mobs around tank so they don't die by firing squad.

 

I don't know what level range you play in, but I have never experienced this.

 

In my experience, teams don't need tanks. They never did.

Teams don't even need melee characters.

Teams don't even really need a healer.

 

It really a matter of your playstyle and a willingness to adjust tactics based on the powers, slotting, and level of characters and the experience and skill of the player playing the characters.

 

9 hours ago, WhiteNightingale said:

Also, taunts don't hold for long at range

 

Do you slot it up?

I do when I play a tank.

 

9 hours ago, WhiteNightingale said:

Can you see where this is going?

 

You play a tank and are upset about the changes?

I don't know. I'm guessing.

 

9 hours ago, WhiteNightingale said:

This is called Triniy Gaming. It predicts that all teams in every game ever must be "tank/heal/DPS or GTFO"

 

Which is not a thing in City of Heroes even though people try to force it into that mold.

It never was. It still isn't.

 

Most tanks are solo minded even when on a team.

I have honestly run into far too many tanks recently that not only don't have taunt but don't care about what is going on with the other players on the team.

 

A tank is great when you can find a good one. It just hasn't been happening for me lately accept with close friends that know tanks have taunt and know how to use it to hold aggro ... which still can be done.

I haven't had any problem holding agro and protecting my teammates when running my own tanks recently on 8 player PUGs.

 

Honestly, I've been on plenty of teams lately with no melee and we had little or no problem with content.

 

The changes don't appear to  be an issue to me.

Change level and playstyle dependent upon the composition and abilities of your team and your golden.

 

I used to run with supergroup coalition that would run teams with just bubblers, just sonics, etc. and those teams did fine.

I've run with all Symphony teams recently, and they did fine.

 

But I agree that Trinity style gaming is very narrow minded. It gets forced into games by players even when the game didn't intend that to be a thing.

 

 

Edited September 30, 2022 by UltraAlt
wording ... still not always proofreading...

[Seed22]

9 hours ago, WhiteNightingale said:

 

Incline is not compel. I've had days to notice the difference, both as tank and as team support. None of which over aggro cap. The changes are there.

There’s no change in the patch. Taunt never meant everything is always in Melee range. Some enemies(a good number) only have ranged attacks so they’ll stay at their max range post-taunt. Now if they’re not even doing that, then that’s a different story and may be a bug. 

[Seed22]

2 hours ago, Sovera said:

 

How dare you try hard at something?? You should just casually expect things to fall on your lap. Like doing good damage, or soloing hard stuff.

Wanting to accomplish something: No problem!

 

Parading around like the success should matter in the real world and trying to shove it down my throat: Tryhard.

 

OP may be using it wrong, but it VERY MUCH is meant to be and is an insult. 
 

If it’s one group of people I hate with a passion, and it matters not if its a game, are tryhards. Such sad and irritating people they all always are.

 

In any case! OP the only instance of Holy trinity here is HM, which yeah I’m not happy about it being Holy trinity on things like 4-star, it’s niche content and I can get through it. But, if that ever touches actual content I’ll be a helluva lot more upset.

Edited September 30, 2022 by Seed22

[Arc-Mage]

11 hours ago, WhiteNightingale said:

Trinity Gaming is how default Asian fantasy MMOs work... not superheroes.

 

Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman are probably the biggest Trinity in Comics. Just saying. 

[Ruin Mage]

Trinity gaming is how most MMOs work. Damage, heal, and tank.

There's just also support thrown in there too.

 

[TygerDarkstorm]

6 hours ago, UltraAlt said:

Do you slot it up?

I do when I play a tank.

Pardon the tangent, but how do you go about this? My tanks are still pretty low level, but I take taunt on all my tankers and have wondered if I should be slotting it.

[biostem]

14 hours ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

I love how "tryhard" is now an insult. Like people trying hard to do something successfully is somehow a bad thing.

I could be wrong, but my understanding is that "tryhard" assumes that the person isn't actually accomplishing anything - just sort of "spinning their wheels", as it were.  I'm all for putting in your best effort and all that - just saying what my understanding of the term is and why it's a pejorative...

[biostem]

5 hours ago, Arc-Mage said:

Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman are probably the biggest Trinity in Comics. Just saying. 

I think your use of the term "trinity" differs from its use in terms of MMOs, where it typically refers to tanking, damage, and healing/support.

[biostem]

7 hours ago, UltraAlt said:

In my experience, teams don't need tanks. They never did.

Teams don't even need melee characters.

Teams don't even really need a healer.

This hinges on the word "need";  You don't "need" any AT.  What you do run into is people building characters to take advantage of what their given AT does best, which tends to leave them vulnerable to those things said ATs come up short in.  A typical defender has a hard time dealing with a lot of aggro, and even if they are able to mitigate it, it means their focus has shifted from supporting their teammates to dealing with that situation, for instance.  It's kind of ironic - if you create a freeform character over on Champions Online, you can create the vaunted "tank mage", and be fully self sufficient, which results in much lessened need or desire to team, and an overall lessened experience, (IMHO)...

Edited September 30, 2022 by biostem

[PeregrineFalcon]

5 minutes ago, biostem said:

I could be wrong, but my understanding is that "tryhard" assumes that the person isn't actually accomplishing anything - just sort of "spinning their wheels", as it were.

Whenever I've seen the term used it's by people who can't (or won't put forth the effort to) accomplish something criticizing those people who have succeeded in accomplishing something.

 

For example; those people who've never even been in a raid group criticizing raiders as "tryhards."

 

So maybe you're right, but I've never seen it used in the context you're describing.

[biostem]

17 hours ago, WhiteNightingale said:

Long version:

So, now as long as a mob has a ranged attack, taunt no longer compels it towards melee, so they stay put and fire from afar for at least the first 20 seconds, denying tankers their bonuses-by-surrounding-mobs, so now teams need either a healer or Wormhole to stack all mobs around tank so they don't die by firing squad. Also, taunts don't hold for long at range, so tank is no longer protecting the team against at least half the mobs every encounter.

Before the patch, tankers would get the attention of mobs up to the aggro cap, and the others would just stand around ignoring them.  After the patch, those mobs that would previously ignore them will now instead only attack with ranged attacks.  Yes, the net number of incoming attacks has increased, but the number of enemies that will close to melee has not decreased...

[Doomguide2005]

<-- Not a farmer or fire farmer but in general the few times I've been on a fire farm with a friend I'm pretty sure they've easily had 17+ foes within perception distance particularly early on when there's lots of mobs still present on the map.  So yeah no change to Taunt just a change in AI behavior by mobs 17 places or further down your threat list.  Now they shoot instead of sitting on their thumbs.

 

And CoX while its never required Trinity play for success doesn't preclude its usage either.

[Zect]

Interesting suggestion. Personally, I'm extremely thrilled by the "push towards trinity gaming" as OP calls it. I've waited literally 12 years (since 2010) for content worth playing an empath in that's not Hami and content worth playing a tank in that's not Hami or MLTF. Now there are two pieces of content in the entire game where this is the case. It's not much, but it's a start!

 

Hopefully, we'll see much more such content and many similar changes/improvements to game mechanics in future. The metagame is being diversified and advanced for the benefit of all players, regardless of playstyle!

[srmalloy]

And in counterpoint, Zect, I'm disappointed to see that, between the changes that have been made with new TF contact and the people who are fixated on running it at max difficulty who grab onto one way to succeed as if it's the only way to succeed, it's resurrecting the "r u healzorz?" by organizers demanding specific mixes of ATs, powersets, and even individual powers, locking out people who don't min-max their characters to fit the holy meta. One of the things that made CoH so much fun, even back when it had just released, was that you could make team with virtually anything and have it work, and I'm seeing that get ground down to turn CoH into an MMO distinguished from the others only by having an awesome costume editor that doesn't depend on the gear you have. It's not WoW, and getting bigger and bigger sledgehammers to try to pound it into the same hole is a disservice to the game.

[Arc-Mage]

On 9/30/2022 at 3:02 PM, biostem said:

I think your use of the term "trinity" differs from its use in terms of MMOs, where it typically refers to tanking, damage, and healing/support.

Superman is the Tank. Batman is the support. Wonder Woman is the healing.

[Astralock]

1 hour ago, srmalloy said:

And in counterpoint, Zect, I'm disappointed to see that, between the changes that have been made with new TF contact and the people who are fixated on running it at max difficulty who grab onto one way to succeed as if it's the only way to succeed, it's resurrecting the "r u healzorz?" by organizers demanding specific mixes of ATs, powersets, and even individual powers, locking out people who don't min-max their characters to fit the holy meta. One of the things that made CoH so much fun, even back when it had just released, was that you could make team with virtually anything and have it work, and I'm seeing that get ground down to turn CoH into an MMO distinguished from the others only by having an awesome costume editor that doesn't depend on the gear you have. It's not WoW, and getting bigger and bigger sledgehammers to try to pound it into the same hole is a disservice to the game.

 

I hear you, but honestly the players are as much to blame for that as the developers.  There are many, many ways to skin the 4* ASF and 4* ITF, but the player base (not the developers), decided that there must be one true way.

[Rudra]

5 hours ago, Zect said:

Interesting suggestion. Personally, I'm extremely thrilled by the "push towards trinity gaming" as OP calls it. I've waited literally 12 years (since 2010) for content worth playing an empath in that's not Hami and content worth playing a tank in that's not Hami or MLTF. Now there are two pieces of content in the entire game where this is the case. It's not much, but it's a start!

 

Hopefully, we'll see much more such content and many similar changes/improvements to game mechanics in future. The metagame is being diversified and advanced for the benefit of all players, regardless of playstyle!

The problem with trinity gaming is that as @srmalloy said, if you are an AT they already ahve covered or if you are an AT that does not fit within that oh so limited scope, you don't get to join most teams or be able to accomplish some of the more difficult tasks in the game. All scrapper teams, all tanker teams, all whatever teams, random PUGs, and even just two or so players working together regardless of AT combination and being able to complete all the game's content is one of the things that makes CoX great. The fixation on trinity gaming from either the devs or the players limits creative strategy and players' ability to play what they want when they want.

 

2 hours ago, Arc-Mage said:

Superman is the Tank. Batman is the support. Wonder Woman is the healing.

Wonder Woman is a healer? Since when? She can use first aid and combat triage allies, but so can Batman. That does not make her a "healer". The Superman, Wonder Woman, Batman team is tanker, scrapper, and gadgeteer scrapper. The holy trinity of gaming is almost never used in comics that I have seen.

 

Edit: Actually, if any of those three is the "healer", it would be Superman. He used his x-ray vision with his heat vision to perform field surgery.

Edited October 2, 2022 by Rudra