Focused Feedback: Robotics Revamp

[WindDemon21]

3 minutes ago, Tacheyon said:

 

Ok, so you clearly have a fixation that -regen needs to stay on the Bots because you don't want to take the personal attacks.  I get it.  Personal attacks suck a lot of END out of your rotation/budget for other powers.  But you are taking it really personal it seems.

I am playing around with the Mercs/Necros/Ninjas seeing if I want/need to take all the attacks or just a couple and if it'll make a difference.  I already know that I can't take all of them so in the case of Mercs I could be losing out on a 3-10% damage buff.  Necros I'll probably lose more with the extra summons that their personal attacks bring (not sure about Ninjas as I didn't see a bunch of extra crits).

But I did see all those Pets doing a lot more then right now in live even Bots.  So right now I consider what the Devs are doing a Gain for MM's all around (and not as you say for Petless MM's "desires").  What the Devs are trying to do is promote a Base line enjoyment for all MM's by making sure the pets are all on a mostly equal footing.  And in doing so promote more build variety then ever before.

You say build variety. We see "more attacks and slots and cast time needed to keep -regen in the build where it wasn't needed before"

 

edit to not make a 2nd post: again, we're not saying the changes to the bot atacks themselves aren't lovely. We're saying what I just said above.

Edited October 16, 2022 by WindDemon21

[ScarySai]

 

 

Sets without -regen but more front loaded -res would perform better than this under the same parameters, too.

 

In any case, the entire argument that bots can't solo GMs/avs now without their precious -regen is 100% debunked. 

Edited October 16, 2022 by ScarySai

[tiberius0476]

20 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

Well, no, you're wrong, but let's get into that.

 

...

 

I do agree that personals should have maybe a little more raw killing power instead of being turned into glorified debuffs

LOL ok. So I'm wrong, but you agree with me. Seems contrarian, but I'm glad we found common ground after all.

 

Thanks for running your tests. They seem pretty in line with what has been posted. Overall the sum of the changes look good and I agree overall this patch is a huge win for MMs.

[Sovera]

13 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

 

 

Sets without -regen but more front loaded -res would perform better than this under the same parameters, too.

 

In any case, the entire argument that bots can't solo GMs/avs now is 100% debunked, now.

 

 

That was delightfully impressive. I loved how your bots survived the ordeal.

[Armaros]

39 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

 

 

Sets without -regen but more front loaded -res would perform better than this under the same parameters, too.

 

In any case, the entire argument that bots can't solo GMs/avs now without their precious -regen is 100% debunked. 

Your test would be more less biased if you weren’t literally running with the set with the some of the strongest -Regen in the game in order to make the argument that Robots don’t need -regen.

but whatever. I made my peace with this and decided it’s not worth it anymore.

[Sovera]

9 minutes ago, Armaros said:

Your test would be more less biased if you weren’t literally running with the set with the some of the strongest -Regen in the game in order to make the argument that Robots don’t need -regen.

but whatever. I made my peace with this and decided it’s not worth it anymore.

 

As pointed out the mortar poison trap was not used on purpose to show it could be done without -regen.

 

It's in the name of the video.

Edited October 16, 2022 by Sovera

[ScarySai]

1 minute ago, Sovera said:

As pointed out the mortar was not used on purpose to show it could be done without -regen.

Mortar was used, but that's the -res and -def.

 

Poison trap is what you're thinking of. I misfire photon a few times due to zoning out, but it didn't really change the point of the video.

 

I wouldn't bother replying to people who don't pay attention past this point, in any case.

[Armaros]

4 minutes ago, Sovera said:

 

As pointed out the mortar was not used on purpose to show it could be done without -regen.

 

It's in the name of the video.

Poison trap is /traps -Regen and it was on his bars AND was used.

 

I have made numerous /traps MM and corruptors, it was my favorite powerset on live, I know which powers are what.

 

using the strongest player avaliable -regen power in the game to show that a different set does not need -Regen is literally against the point of such a test.

 

so forgive me if I call out a disengeous test.

 

yeah you shows that robot/traps doesnt need -Regen from the assault bot, that is also true on live.

Edited October 16, 2022 by Armaros

[ScarySai]

35 minutes ago, Armaros said:

Poison trap is /traps -Regen and it was on his bars AND was used.

 

Poison trap wasn't used, why are you lying about a video everyone can watch and verify? It's number one on the bars. there.

Edited October 16, 2022 by ScarySai

[Sovera]

It's the very first button, '1' and it never goes on CD for the whole fight(s).

[Sir Myshkin]

12 minutes ago, Armaros said:

Poison trap is /traps -Regen and it was on his bars AND was used.

 

I have made numerous /traps MM and corruptors, it was my favorite powerset on live, I know which powers are what.

 

using the strongest player avaliable -regen power in the game to show that a different set does not need -Regen is literally against the point of such a test.

 

so forgive me if I call out a disengeous test.

 

Yeah, about that... It was never used in the Requiem video. It's slot 1 on tray 1. Maybe you were confusing it with the Caltrop icon on tray 3? They do look very similar, and if the video was loading under poor quality I could see some confusion in the matter, but no Poison Trap was not used.

[Sir Myshkin]

1 hour ago, ScarySai said:

In any case, the entire argument that bots can't solo GMs/avs now without their precious -regen is 100% debunked. 

 

Also, shout out to you for this because you beat me to it. I was planning to do this after work last night but fell asleep before getting around to it. 👍

[Paradox Fate]

1 minute ago, Sir Myshkin said:

 

Also, shout out to you for this because you beat me to it. I was planning to do this after work last night but fell asleep before getting around to it. 👍

 

I'd say you still should do it - Find the weakest/least amount of -regen debuff secondary and record a few GW/AV fights with it.

The more you pile the evidence up, the less they can argue against the changes.

[Wavicle]

Someone should correct me if I’m wrong but I thought -Regen ISN’T really a Force Multiplying debuff but more like an additional source of damage that scales not with team damage but with enemy hp and regen.

[ScarySai]

7 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

Someone should correct me if I’m wrong but I thought -Regen ISN’T really a Force Multiplying debuff but more like an additional source of damage that scales not with team damage but with enemy hp and regen.

 

I think that overcomplicates it.

 

Regen is HP/s, and scales with the HP of the character in question.

 

A minion regenerating 3% per second is nothing worthy of even noting. Same for an LT and boss. Where it actually becomes a big enough problem to swing things would be AVs and gms, where 5% health a second is like, tons of HP per regen tick. Hence why, it's technically accurate to say that -regen is like added dps, but -regen is significantly less valuable than raw DPS in the majority of cases. It's also one of those things where, once the -regen is bottomed out, there's no real point adding more. It's a valuable thing for av/gm kills, but many people overvalue it.

Edited October 16, 2022 by ScarySai

[Sir Myshkin]

1 minute ago, Wavicle said:

Someone should correct me if I’m wrong but I thought -Regen ISN’T really a Force Multiplying debuff but more like an additional source of damage that scales not with team damage but with enemy hp and regen.

-Regen works against enemy targets the same way it does against players, except that very few things in the game give players Regen Debuff Resistance, and there are tons of auto effects for Enemies to receive defense against this, cheaters.

 

All scales against max hp the same way, and is a percent gain. If we take away the percent gain, then the earned value goes down. The server typically ticks in rounds of like... 2/s I think? I haven't done testing checks on this stuff in a while so don't quote me on that, but I think it bumps the heal check every couple of seconds, and for Pylons it's even longer. For little critters this doesn't mean much, it only really matters for the biggin's like AVs and GMs where they have five digit carry overs.

 

If an AV is rocking 35,000, and regens 150 HP/s, and we want to drop that percentile down, we gotta stack up those -Regen's. I believe someone mentioned earlier already that something like Poison Trap will cap out on Purple Patch with +4 to like 90% reduction which would give us like 15 HP/s. That's like bonkers nothing.

 

The Regen of an enemy is in direct counter to the damage we as players are doing, the longer they're alive, the more they heal. If I hit with a 300 DPS attack, and they heal 150 HP/s, I'm only effectively doing 150 DPS in the wash out. But If I apply a massive -Regen debuff, do 300 DPS, and drop them to 15 HP/s, I'm now doing an effective 285 DPS.

 

For the record, this is all clown math and not hard math meant purely as demonstration, please don't take these as pure game numbers!

[Wavicle]

My point was that -Regen does not increase effectiveness on teams, It’s of the same effectiveness regardless.

[Razor Cure]

Gonna test this soon.

To echo some other comments, it seems really silly to get rid of all the -regen and tie it to personal attacks. Regardless of how teh DPS works out, removing a big feature and locking it behind personal attacks (which I dont want, would never use, and cant fit in the build anyway) seems like a bad idea.

Why not have the -regen spead over the pets (since all the prea robot attacks do -regen) or so the -regen comes from pets OR attacks?

[WindDemon21]

Traps also has some of the heaviest -resistance of any support set against an AV/GM as well even without poison trap. Where this becomes extra noticeable is on those sets with much less boost in the way of -resistance/-regen. But, to say anything at this point, is really just discussing why -regen is valuable, completely against the argument, which is WHERE it should be, which is in the bots, not the MM attacks, for the sole purpose of being too busy, or exhausted to spam those for the -regen.

 

One thing I need clarity on too, with the resistances being moved to the upgrade, does that include the force shield from the protector bot that we can now slot that in whatever upgrade it's in? With how the other sets get this seems like this would be logical to have that slotting be in the upgrade power.

[BraveDecoy]

Are there any threats in the game that actually require having insane -Regen to beat?  The only things that come to mind are Reichsman and maybe the Lord Of Winter, both of which have 6 digit HP values, but they're not impossible.  I guess if you're trying to solo them, perhaps, but both are parts of gimmick fights.  The TF/SF you meet Reichsman gives you temp powers to neuter him, and the Lord of Winter is a LFG league event that has a minimum requirement of 12 characters.

[Bionic_Flea]

23 hours ago, WindDemon21 said:

We . . .

You keep posting talking about "we" but, to the best of my knowledge, you have not been elected or hired by anyone to speak on their behalf. 

 

So I'm not sure who you claim to be speaking for.  Even though I would like for the bots to keep some -regen, you don't speak for me.

[WindDemon21]

24 minutes ago, Bionic_Flea said:

You keep posting talking about "we" but, to the best of my knowledge, you have not been elected or hired by anyone to speak on their behalf. 

 

So I'm not sure who you claim to be speaking for.  Even though I would like for the bots to keep some -regen, you don't speak for me.

Those who also are saying it obviously. If I were the only one saying it, then I would say "I". Are we really needing english lessons?

[Scrapulous]

I have a suggestion for people who are giving feedback: the more your feedback relates to the designer's goals, the more helpful it is to the designer, and the more likely it is to see the light of day. Some examples:

 

• "I like/don't like/hate this feature." This is interesting information, but it's really only actionable to a designer in large volumes, because otherwise it amounts to an anecdote. Sufficiently large volumes won't be reached on a forum thread, by the way.
• "I like/don't like this feature because it impacts the way I play; here's exactly how it impacts me." This is better, because at least it conveys a sense of what the design change is doing to the player. This can make your feedback more likely to be implemented ("Oh, I never expected that interaction, we should try to find an implementation that causes less collateral impact") or more likely to be dismissed ("Well, of course you're going to have to change your build after a powers redesign."), but either way the designer is able to act with more information and you have the security of knowing that the change was deliberate.
• "I like/don't like this feature. Here's how it impacts the game negatively. I see what you're trying to do. Here's an alternate suggestion that might get the same result with less unintended spillover." This is a huge improvement over the previous two types of feedback, because suddenly you're in a design discussion. This doesn't obligate the designer to reply - everybody with an opinion is an amateur designer and feels entitled to comment on the designer's work, so it's impossible to answer every constructive suggestion - but there are many benefits to doing this. The first is that it forces you to grapple with the tradeoffs the designer had to deal with, so that you have a better understanding of the context for the design. The second is that it allows the designer to see at once if you're simply refusing to acknowledge those tradeoffs and therefore are providing low-grade feedback. The third is that you might have a good suggestion that the designer hadn't considered, or what's more likely, a good suggestion that the designer considered but stepped back from out of concern; informed by your testing experience, the designer may feel less concern. The fourth benefit is that the designer has a chance to grapple with your perception of the problem, which honestly is something that every design needs but not every design gets just by the nature of design work; this can shake loose new ideas or different approaches. Often the Goldilocks implementation of a feature comes not as a direct adoption of a tester's suggestion, but as something inspired by that feedback, even if the link is not obvious to anybody but the designer.

 

TL;DR: provide clear details of your test experience, and if you want something changed, try to understand what the original change was intended to achieve and suggest an alternative that meets the same goal.

[Lazarillo]

17 hours ago, BraveDecoy said:

The only things that come to mind are Reichsman and maybe the Lord Of Winter, both of which have 6 digit HP values, but they're not impossible. 

It's funny you mention M. Reison, because despite his extreme HP values, he actually has much, much lower Regen than any other AV-like entity in the game.  This is, ostensibly, why he has his own enemy class, because the old school devs specifically were kind of tired of the whole "bring -Regen to fight AVs" assumption, and thus, his toughness is based around simply having a ridiculous base HP pool and high resistances.  -Regen by contrast actually does quite little to him, relatively speaking, by design at least.