The Issue 27, Page 5 Quality of Life change -> Level Availability

[LiquidBandage]

Regarding the Quality of Life changes in today's update:

Can someone point me out to the discussion that covers how/why this change was enacted?

If none such thread/discussion exists, what is the theory/need that is addressed by this change?

 

Quote

Quality of Life Changes

Level Availability Changes

Primary Sets (non-Epic ATs)

• Tier 8 powers moved from level 26 to level 22
• Tier 9 powers moved from level 32 to level 26

Secondary Sets (non-Epic ATs)

• Tier 2 powers moved from level 2 to level 1 (character creation)
• Tier 7 powers moved from level 28 to level 24
• Tier 8 powers moved from level 35 to level 28
• Tier 9 powers moved from level 38 to level 30

Epic Pools

• Tier 3 powers moved from level 41 to level 38

 

[PeregrineFalcon]

 

[Lines]

Also worth looking at this discussion, which had lots of input:

 

 

[LiquidBandage]

I appreciate the pointers to relevant discussions, thank you.

 

I was more focused on if anyone knew if any of the official Homecoming people had a declarative statement on why they were enacting this change, not just hard details of what was being changed. I was interested to grapple with their rationale behind the change.

[Vanden]

1 minute ago, LiquidBandage said:

I was more focused on if anyone knew if any of the official Homecoming people had a declarative statement on why they were enacting this change, not just hard details of what was being changed. I was interested to grapple with their rationale behind the change.

 

Lots of players feel like the grind in the 20s and 30s is real, so they made it so that you have access to at least one new power every time you train to a power level after you hit 20.

[Riverdusk]

5 minutes ago, LiquidBandage said:

I appreciate the pointers to relevant discussions, thank you.

 

I was more focused on if anyone knew if any of the official Homecoming people had a declarative statement on why they were enacting this change, not just hard details of what was being changed. I was interested to grapple with their rationale behind the change.

 

A dev posted something to the effect of it was to fix the "dead" levels where you couldn't take a new primary or secondary power and were forced to take a pool power.  

[LiquidBandage]

1 minute ago, Vanden said:

 

Lots of players feel like the grind in the 20s and 30s is real, so they made it so that you have access to at least one new power every time you train to a power level after you hit 20.

In isolation, that makes a lot of sense. Wanting freedom to pick powers from your Primary/Secondary to help fuel your concept.

 

I would counter their argument with: 

• Make all powers (secondary and primary) available starting at level 1. Let the character concept drive the evolution of the powers. If a mangled Cronenberg beast emerges, that's what respecs are designed to correct. 

[LiquidBandage]

5 minutes ago, Riverdusk said:

 

A dev posted something to the effect of it was to fix the "dead" levels where you couldn't take a new primary or secondary power and were forced to take a pool power.  

It is somewhat humorous that there are "dead" levels at all. I am going to have to put on my Old Man overalls and yell at "those damned kids" to get off my lawn because I remember having to dedicate a Pool choice to get Stamina by level 20.

[Zhym]

2 minutes ago, LiquidBandage said:

It is somewhat humorous that there are "dead" levels at all. I am going to have to put on my Old Man overalls and yell at "those damned kids" to get off my lawn because I remember having to dedicate a Pool choice to get Stamina by level 20.

The "dead" levels are usually where I take the "dead" powers I need to get other powers (I'm looking at you, Boxing).

[roleki]

3 minutes ago, LiquidBandage said:

It is somewhat humorous that there are "dead" levels at all. I am going to have to put on my Old Man overalls and yell at "those damned kids" to get off my lawn because I remember having to dedicate a Pool choice to get Stamina by level 20.

 

Yeah, but do you FONDLY remember that?  I sure don't.

 

That said, being gimped as all get out back in the day DID make teaming more palatable.  But I prefer things this way.

[Ravenwulfe]

24 minutes ago, Riverdusk said:

 

A dev posted something to the effect of it was to fix the "dead" levels where you couldn't take a new primary or secondary power and were forced to take a pool power.  

While I understand the ideal, it doesn't fix the problem. It just shifts where it is. So instead of earlier levels it's later levels you will have dead levels forced to pick a pool instead. Honestly, to fix this problem might help to actually fix a lot of the powers and the "lame duck" powers that are easily skippable because of poor design or just underperforming. An actual choice instead of people going to mids and pointing out what powers are just not worth taking at all or are only taken as mule powers. Like how universally every tier 1 power, especially now, is now considered skip at this point.

Edited October 18, 2022 by Ravenwulfe

[LiquidBandage]

1 minute ago, roleki said:

 

Yeah, but do you FONDLY remember that?  I sure don't.

 

That said, being gimped as all get out back in the day DID make teaming more palatable.  But I prefer things this way.

No, I do not relish having to dedicate three (iirc) power choices in a Pool just to get the benefit of Stamina so the rest of my powers could shine a little brighter. 

I did appreciate that having to make that choice to put my other power choices in perspective. I could build towards a sine wave performance profile or a steady flat curve. Now that it (Stamina) is a built-in power, I take it semi for granted and instead focus on the next goal on the horizon.

 

[Lines]

Hard to pinpoint a specific post, but another rationale is to make the early levels more enjoyable to play by adding choice. They've been dead set on reducing the imposed weaknesses of earlier levels, such as access to SOs. Late blooming powersets are now less late blooming.

[tidge]

I like the changes: more choices without (modulo set revamps) force to pick powers the new way.

 

Only on some ATs did I feel like there was a "dead zone" of choices... I've almost always been non-plussed about the pile-up of potential power picks after level 30.

[Charming Aloof]

I thought these new changes would make old builds useless.  I am glad I was wrong, but I am not an fan.

[roleki]

22 minutes ago, Ravenwulfe said:

While I understand the ideal, it doesn't fix the problem. It just shifts where it is. So instead of earlier levels it's later levels you will have dead levels forced to pick a pool instead. Honestly, to fix this problem might help to actually fix a lot of the powers and the "lame duck" powers that are easily skippable because of poor design or just underperforming. An actual choice instead of people going to mids and pointing out what powers are just not worth taking at all or are only taken as mule powers. Like how universally every tier 1 power, especially now, is now considered skip at this point.

 

I rather like 'dead powers' or at least, I see them as opportunities to zig where others might zag.  That said, some powersets, we all zig... that's probably not ideal. 

[gameboy1234]

32 minutes ago, Ravenwulfe said:

While I understand the ideal, it doesn't fix the problem. It just shifts where it is. So instead of earlier levels it's later levels you will have dead levels forced to pick a pool instead. Honestly, to fix this problem might help to actually fix a lot of the powers and the "lame duck" powers that are easily skippable because of poor design or just underperforming. An actual choice instead of people going to mids and pointing out what powers are just not worth taking at all or are only taken as mule powers. Like how universally every tier 1 power, especially now, is now considered skip at this point.

 

I actually agree with this a lot, though it would obviously take a lot more work on the devs' part.  Making the first and second power picks "worth it" would obviate some of the "good" powers later on.  It was just a way of stretching out play time and content back in the day.  But nowadays I think the design is showing its age.  Given the current design I'm not sure what could be done, except for maybe to slow down choices at later levels.  This might require introducing some other sort of reward or "power" that could be taken at some levels.  I'm not sure what that would be though.

 

[KaizenSoze]

I hate talking in generalities. 

 

A Dark Blaster defender no longer has to take the often poor T1 blast, Dark Blast. They can take the much better Gloom.

Storm controllers no longer have to take Gale.

I could go on and on...

 

I cannot see this as anything, but a major QoL improvement.

 

Folks that are worried this will make the earlier level too easy. Just raise the difficultly.

 

I am looking forward to running +2-3 kill most Yin, once I have respec'ed my builds.

[kelika2]

Some sets sucked donkey ass until 30+

Some ATs and sets sucked in lower levels.  I just finished a synapes with 6 other masterminds and just rolled it because we had access to our tier8 primary and tier7 secondary

And having Detonator in Renault/yin

 

I got enough anecdotes but I got bored typing

[Psyonico]

If I'm reading this correctly, the OP, and at least a few other people, are complaining about a QOL change that doesn't have to be utilized... If you really want to, you can still take your powers at the levels you used to.

 

I... don't understand the problem.

[Biff Pow]

This change also makes all your Primary and Secondary powers available before the Epic pools open up, no awkward overlap.

[Generator]

3 hours ago, Zhym said:

The "dead" levels are usually where I take the "dead" powers I need to get other powers (I'm looking at you, Boxing).

The allegedly "dead" levels gave me an opportunity to pick up travel powers, or other pools I wanted, or some of the other powers that were already available to me.  But I guess ALL MUST HAPPEN NOW.

[Ravenwulfe]

30 minutes ago, Psyonico said:

If I'm reading this correctly, the OP, and at least a few other people, are complaining about a QOL change that doesn't have to be utilized... If you really want to, you can still take your powers at the levels you used to.

 

I... don't understand the problem.

Not really what many are saying at least what I am saying. I am saying it doesn't fix the problem just move it around, when the problem is there shouldn't be power picks that are considered ignorable or useless just because they are.

[LiquidBandage]

1 hour ago, Psyonico said:

If I'm reading this correctly, the OP, and at least a few other people, are complaining about a QOL change that doesn't have to be utilized... If you really want to, you can still take your powers at the levels you used to.

 

I... don't understand the problem.

You're right, you don't understand what has been said.

Not once have I complained about the change. I asked if there was information from the HC crew regarding why this change was made. I wanted to understand why they deemed it a necessary change, what problem it corrected or what benefit they thought it would provide. 

[TheZag]

11 hours ago, roleki said:

 

I rather like 'dead powers' or at least, I see them as opportunities to zig where others might zag.  That said, some powersets, we all zig... that's probably not ideal. 

 

I always zag.