Procs, trying to understand

[Snarky]

I rarely use Procs, unless they fall naturally into a set bonus I chase.  Then they are just there.  

 

Today I made a build where I has a few odd slots left over and a couple powers I might be able to Proc.  

 

But that got me wondering, since I never paid attention.  How do Procs work in AoE?  Does it fire just against one random target.  Does it roll once and fire against all or none?  How does this affect PPM?

 

It is a Beam Sentinel I built,

I chose to slap a  two -res in the low damage AoE cutting beam.  There is a fire proc in there that is 'natural' on the build, chasin' range.

I chose to slap the same stuff in Refractor beam Aoe, a light damage attack.  It also got an NRG proc

 

I would gladly reclaim these slots if they are ineffiecient. 

 

Here is the build:

 

This Hero build was built using Mids Reborn 3.4.6
https://github.com/LoadedCamel/MidsReborn

Click this DataLink to open the build!

BOT: Level 50 Technology Sentinel
Primary Power Set: Beam Rifle
Secondary Power Set: Invulnerability
Power Pool: Flight
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Leadership

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Charged Shot

• (A) Superior Opportunity Strikes - Accuracy/Damage
• (3) Superior Opportunity Strikes - Damage/RechargeTime
• (3) Superior Opportunity Strikes - Accuracy/Damage/RechargeTime
• (5) Superior Opportunity Strikes - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance
• (5) Superior Opportunity Strikes - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance/RechargeTime
• (7) Superior Opportunity Strikes - RechargeTime/Chance for Opportunity
  

Level 1: Temp Invulnerability

• (A) Unbreakable Guard - Resistance
• (7) Unbreakable Guard - Resistance/Endurance
• (9) Unbreakable Guard - RechargeTime/Resistance
• (9) Unbreakable Guard - Resistance/Endurance/RechargeTime
• (11) Unbreakable Guard - +Max HP
  

Level 2: Resist Physical Damage

• (A) Reactive Armor - Resistance/Endurance
• (15) Reactive Armor - Resistance/Recharge
• (17) Reactive Armor - Resistance/Endurance/Recharge
• (17) Reactive Armor - Resistance
• (19) Gladiator's Armor - TP Protection +3% Def (All)
  

Level 4: Durability

• (A) Unbreakable Guard - Resistance
• (19) Unbreakable Guard - Resistance/Endurance
• (21) Unbreakable Guard - RechargeTime/Resistance
• (21) Unbreakable Guard - Resistance/Endurance/RechargeTime
  

Level 6: Cutting Beam

• (A) Bombardment - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge
• (23) Bombardment - Chance for Fire Damage
• (23) Achilles' Heel - Chance for Res Debuff
• (25) Annihilation - Chance for Res Debuff
  

Level 8: Disintegrate

• (A) Superior Sentinel's Ward - Accuracy/Damage
• (25) Superior Sentinel's Ward - Damage/RechargeTime
• (27) Superior Sentinel's Ward - Accuracy/Damage/RechargeTime
• (27) Superior Sentinel's Ward - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance
• (29) Superior Sentinel's Ward - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance/RechargeTime
• (29) Superior Sentinel's Ward - RechargeTime/Chance for +Absorb
  

Level 10: Dull Pain

• None:D-Sync Reconstruction
  

Level 12: Lancer Shot

• (A) Superior Winter's Bite - Accuracy/Damage
• (31) Superior Winter's Bite - Damage/RechargeTime
• (31) Superior Winter's Bite - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance
• (33) Superior Winter's Bite - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge
• (33) Superior Winter's Bite - Damage/Endurance/Accuracy/RechargeTime
• (33) Superior Winter's Bite - Recharge/Chance for -Speed & -Recharge
  

Level 14: Aim

• (A) Recharge Reduction IO
• (34) Recharge Reduction IO
  

Level 16: Unyielding

• (A) Unbreakable Guard - Resistance
• (34) Unbreakable Guard - Resistance/Endurance
• (34) Unbreakable Guard - RechargeTime/Resistance
• (36) Unbreakable Guard - Resistance/Endurance/RechargeTime
  

Level 18: Refractor Beam

• (A) Bombardment - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge
• (36) Bombardment - Chance for Fire Damage
• (36) Achilles' Heel - Chance for Res Debuff
• (37) Annihilation - Chance for Res Debuff
• (37) Positron's Blast - Chance of Damage(Energy)
  

Level 20: Environmental Resistance

• (A) Unbreakable Guard - Resistance
• (37) Unbreakable Guard - Resistance/Endurance
• (39) Unbreakable Guard - RechargeTime/Resistance
• (39) Unbreakable Guard - Resistance/Endurance/RechargeTime
• (39) Steadfast Protection - Resistance/+Def 3%
  

Level 22: Fly

• (A) Winter's Gift - Slow Resistance (20%)
  

Level 24: Kick

• (A) Force Feedback - Chance for +Recharge
  

Level 26: Piercing Beam

• (A) Superior Frozen Blast - Accuracy/Damage
• (40) Superior Frozen Blast - Damage/Endurance
• (40) Superior Frozen Blast - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance
• (40) Superior Frozen Blast - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge
• (42) Superior Frozen Blast - Damage/Endurance/Accuracy/RechargeTime
• (42) Superior Frozen Blast - Recharge/Chance for Immobilize
  

Level 28: Invincible

• (A) Shield Wall - Defense/Endurance
• (42) Shield Wall - Defense
• (43) Shield Wall - +Res (Teleportation), +5% Res (All)
  

Level 30: Hasten

• (A) Recharge Reduction IO
• (43) Recharge Reduction IO
  

Level 32: Overcharge

• (A) Ragnarok - Damage
• (43) Ragnarok - Damage/Recharge
• (45) Ragnarok - Damage/Recharge/Accuracy
• (45) Ragnarok - Recharge/Accuracy
• (45) Ragnarok - Damage/Endurance
  

Level 35: Tough Hide

• (A) Reactive Defenses - Defense
• (46) Reactive Defenses - Defense/Endurance
• (46) Reactive Defenses - Scaling Resist Damage
  

Level 38: Tough

• (A) Unbreakable Guard - Resistance
• (46) Unbreakable Guard - Resistance/Endurance
• (48) Unbreakable Guard - RechargeTime/Resistance
• (48) Unbreakable Guard - Resistance/Endurance/RechargeTime
  

Level 41: Weave

• (A) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Increased Global Recharge Speed
• (50) Luck of the Gambler - Defense
  

Level 44: Maneuvers

• (A) Luck of the Gambler - Defense
• (50) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Increased Global Recharge Speed
• (50) Kismet - Accuracy +6%
  

Level 47: Hover

• (A) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Increased Global Recharge Speed
• (48) Luck of the Gambler - Defense
  

Level 49: Tactics

• (A) Rectified Reticle - Increased Perception
  

Level 1: Opportunity 

Level 1: Brawl

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[Frosticus]

Search up @Bopper, he put a proc guide (among many other useful echanics guides).

 

Whether the proc(s) is useful depends on the math, your expectations, and what you are giving up in exchange.

 

I have builds that just proc out a few main attacks - like a sentinel nuke 3-dam/rech, 3 procs cause I always use it with aim.

Or dominator call Hawk- a hard hitting single target attack with near perfect proc probability that can take 4 damage procs.

 

I have builds like my plant/poison that put procs in pretty much every possible spot as an experiment that turned out super fun.

 

The 5-6 pcs bonuses are where lots of people get their defenses. It can be difficult to give that up. 

[Hedgefund2]

If you really want to better understand procs and find the answers to your questions, it's within this thread.

 

 

It's a lot to go through, no doubt, but worth reading the OP at the very least.

 

To answer your AOE questions, a probability is computed similar to a ST attack but is reduced by an "area factor".  Each target of the aoe, if hit, uses this probability for the proc.

[Snarky]

I have not touched calculus in many a year.  But I kind of glimpsed through the results and got an idea.  These is prob not a bad plan is da conclusion.

[aethereal]

Procs in a normal AoE attack have a chance to fire once per target of the attack.  So if you put a damage proc into an AoE attack and it has a 50% chance to fire, and you have two targets, you have a 25% chance of it firing on both targets, a 50% chance of it firing on exactly one target, and a 25% chance of it not firing at all.

 

In terms of expected damage, if you do not have any local recharge in a power, damage procs are almost invariably much better in AoE attacks than a normal damage enhancement.

 

I assure you that no calculus is involved in the proc formulae.

[Snarky]

21 minutes ago, aethereal said:

Procs in a normal AoE attack have a chance to fire once per target of the attack.  So if you put a damage proc into an AoE attack and it has a 50% chance to fire, and you have two targets, you have a 25% chance of it firing on both targets, a 50% chance of it firing on exactly one target, and a 25% chance of it not firing at all.

 

In terms of expected damage, if you do not have any local recharge in a power, damage procs are almost invariably much better in AoE attacks than a normal damage enhancement.

 

I assure you that no calculus is involved in the proc formulae.

You are right, it was a quip.

 

I am still not running this calculation out.

 

[Sir Myshkin]

@Snarky the tl;dr is this: 1-3 slots for Acc/Dam/End, fill the rest with procs. If recharge has to be included, any power under 15/s, it doesn't matter, any power 15-30/s in recharge length, less is best, but a little is fine without totally borking the chances. 30-45 there's probably an efficiency sweet spot in here, one recharge enhancement often meets it, don't get greedy and you'll hit it fine. Anything over 45/s and you can fill it till your gills burst and it won't matter.

 

What're the odds on hitting with AoE/Cone? Keep 4-5 in the cone for minimum chances, 10+ for optimal chance, that's all you have to remember.

 

This is today's Proc Lesson.

[Clave Dark 5]

Hey neat!  I was looking to make a Sent because I don't have one that got past 10th or something and the new changes, and BR is the main thing I knew I wanted, and I wasn't settled on the secondary.  I may have to steal and adapt this build.

[MistressOhm]

Don't forget, Beam Rifle has its own 'inherent' proc, Disintegration.  It randomly throws on a DoT effect, and if you hit the afflicted target again while Disintegration is active, the effect spreads to other nearby mobs.  There's at least one attack that specifically applies this (not as a random proc) but nearly every attack in the set has a chance to apply it.  

[Gobbledigook]

10 hours ago, Sir Myshkin said:

@Snarky the tl;dr is this: 1-3 slots for Acc/Dam/End, fill the rest with procs. If recharge has to be included, any power under 15/s, it doesn't matter, any power 15-30/s in recharge length, less is best, but a little is fine without totally borking the chances. 30-45 there's probably an efficiency sweet spot in here, one recharge enhancement often meets it, don't get greedy and you'll hit it fine. Anything over 45/s and you can fill it till your gills burst and it won't matter.

 

What're the odds on hitting with AoE/Cone? Keep 4-5 in the cone for minimum chances, 10+ for optimal chance, that's all you have to remember.

 

This is today's Proc Lesson.

Layman's Terms 😉

[arcane]

So the shoe is on the other foot I see, Snarky

 

EDIT: that was a simple joke about Snarky’s hatred of proc builds, to clarify, since Black Zot’s vivid imagination is already on the clock..

Edited October 24, 2022 by arcane

[roleki]

I may be remembering this incorrectly, but I think a single target will only be affected by one of the -Res procs in Refractor Beam; having two increases your odds of applying -Res, period, but I don't think it would get double -Res if both went off.  I could be wrong, but I am pretty sure someone forumsplained it to me one time that one effect replaces the other.  

 

[cranebump]

2 hours ago, Gobbledegook said:

Layman's Terms 😉

No, no...THIS is Layman's Terms:

Put the fancy peg in the empty circle. Mash buttons. Things happen (sometimes).:-)

[Sir Myshkin]

12 hours ago, Gobbledegook said:

Layman's Terms 😉

 

heh, when you said that this is all I could think of:

Bopper with the math's	Me doing all the field work.

 

Edited October 25, 2022 by Sir Myshkin
original image clipped out

[Digirium]

32,000 beans sound like what everyone expects with proc rates when in reality ...

[twozerofoxtrot]

12 hours ago, roleki said:

I don't think it would get double -Res if both went off.  I could be wrong, but I am pretty sure someone forumsplained it to me one time that one effect replaces the other.  

 

 

This is incorrect. The two effects are different from each other, and both have a chance to be applied to each target without overwriting each other. 

 

This would however occur if you fired another power with the same procs and they were applied to your target. So for example:

 

Cutting Beam > Tsoo Sorcerer 

Annihilation Proc: Lands

Achilles Proc: Lands

 

-then-

 

Overcharge > Tsoo Sorcerer 

Annihilation Proc: Lands, overwrites previous application and restarts timer

Achilles Proc: Misses cause you get the idea.

 

 

[twozerofoxtrot]

On 10/24/2022 at 10:02 AM, Snarky said:

You are right, it was a quip.

 

I am still not running this calculation out.

 

 

 

You don't have to! There is an excel that Bopper made that will do the calculations for you, if you put in the detailed data.

 

Don't recall where I got this originally but I use it so much it's got a permanent spot in two different google drives:

 

Copy of Bopper's CoH Tools and Formulas.pdf

[roleki]

7 hours ago, twozerofoxtrot said:

 

This is incorrect. The two effects are different from each other, and both have a chance to be applied to each target without overwriting each other. 

 

This would however occur if you fired another power with the same procs and they were applied to your target. So for example:

 

Cutting Beam > Tsoo Sorcerer 

Annihilation Proc: Lands

Achilles Proc: Lands

 

-then-

 

Overcharge > Tsoo Sorcerer 

Annihilation Proc: Lands, overwrites previous application and restarts timer

Achilles Proc: Misses cause you get the idea.

 

 

 

Fair enough, thanks for the clarification.  Unless YOU are the person who left me with the impression -Res procs replaced each other, in which case, I boo you a tad.