Why is Assault Rifle bad, and how could it be better?

[Weylin]

As much as I like the theme of this power set, if you ask anyone that has a deep understanding of the game, they'll invariably tell you it's bad.

From what I've gathered, these are some of the issues:

 

- Sniper Rifle doesn't have a shorter cast time while in Quick Form, but it has a 1 second faster cast time compared to other snipes while out of combat, so it's a lower DPA snipe compared to other sets once combat is underway, just gets the initial shot off faster, but interrupt time is still 2 seconds.

- Ignite has a very small radius (4 ft) and a very strong fear effect, making it far less effective than it theoretically could be.

- The set is lacking on debuffs, with only a -DEF on your weakest attack. (I mean, still better than Archery and Energy Blast...?)

- 4 abilities have random chance KB, which is a bit of a toss up on if that's good or bad, since you get Force Feedback procs as an option, but face the KB2KD tax if you don't want things randomly flinging around... such as out of your Full Auto cone coverage or aforementioned very tiny Ignite AoE.

 

 

I don't really have the experience to make good suggestions, which is why I want to hear from you guys why it's considered such a bad set, but I have a few ideas to throw in while we're kicking the discussion off here:

 

Beanbag is a good ST stun, but it stands in place of Aim, which is able to significantly buff the damage and to-hit of your big AoE attacks. Maybe this could be upgraded to a Flash Bang grenade? 100% chance of mag 3 stun to your target, but a 40% chance to all others in a 15ft radius?

 

Since Sniper Rifle has a longer cast time while in Quick Form, maybe it could have a higher damage output or -Res to compensate for this?

 

Ignite having a 10ft radius and a slow debuff would help that power be more than something you splash in a doorway and weep as Minions and AVs alike run through it like it's nothing, taking 3 ticks of damage at the most. That power really leans on you or someone else having immobilizes or holds. Maybe just making contact with the puddle starts a DoT that lingers even if the targets run out of it or straight through it?

 

 

I dunno, curious to hear your thoughts. When people say a set is "bad", are we talking differences of 10%, or massive night and day issues?

[Rudra]

My recommendation is worry less about what others tell you about the set and just dig in and give it a try. You may be surprised. It basically boils down to your playstyle, but you need to decide for yourself how Assault Rifle is as a set rather than run off what you are being told. I find the set rather fun and effective. I have an AR/Devices Blaster that is both fun and effective. May not do as much damage as some of my other characters, but it can be rather hard to keep up with Fire Blast or a tricked out for damage Energy Blast set.

[Weylin]

22 minutes ago, Rudra said:

My recommendation is worry less about what others tell you about the set and just dig in and give it a try. You may be surprised. It basically boils down to your playstyle, but you need to decide for yourself how Assault Rifle is as a set rather than run off what you are being told. I find the set rather fun and effective. I have an AR/Devices Blaster that is both fun and effective. May not do as much damage as some of my other characters, but it can be rather hard to keep up with Fire Blast or a tricked out for damage Energy Blast set.

I normally just play what sounds fun, and then find out later that it's bad, which is pretty discouraging if you're planning on spending time on kitting out something.

I'm using AR/Dev as well, but doing so in a bit of a vacuum as I haven't tried all of the combinations, or those considered meta. 

Edited December 23, 2022 by Weylin

[Rudra]

I have a friend with an AR/Traps Corruptor that she runs like it's a Brute instead. When she plays, she will be off on her lonesome even when we have a full team, just clear-cutting the side of the map she claims for herself. So take people's talk about AR being bad or worthless with a grain of salt.

[PoptartsNinja]

AR isn't a bad set, it's just a weird set. I'd personally trade beanbag for Aim but I haven't really missed Aim or Build Up on my AR/Nin Blaster. It's actually kinda liberating not needing to worry about them, honestly.

 

I'd say the only power in AR that's in need of actual help is Flamethrower; which has the same problems as all the fire/ice breath attacks: namely a long rooting animation and anemic damage (as well as weird start-up time on the damage tics, which sometimes don't even start triggering for 2-3 seconds based on the enemy's range). At the same time, buffing Flamethrower means buffing every enemy that also has Flamethrower because it's such a bad power it makes for a good filler attack for low- and mid-tier mobs so a lot of enemy groups have it.

 

Imagine Longbow or Council with buffed, actually dangerous Flamethrowers.

[Ghost]

I never let someone else’s opinion of powers or ATs get in the way of my fun.

Neither should you.  If you enjoy playing it, quit worrying about what others think.

[Wavicle]

Sniper Rifle doesn't have interrupt time in the fast version. Not sure where you got that. I agree it's kinda slow, but that's all.

[biostem]

My issue with AR has more to do with it trying to do too many things at once, (AKA being a "Frankengun"), instead of being a really good assault rifle.  For instance, you could have a series of short controlled bursts for cone attacks, instead of a shoehorned-in shotgun blast and magic flamethrower.  Have it ablate the target's armor, thereby imparting small but stacking -DEF and -RES with every attack.  You could include W.P. or explosive ammo if you wanted to add a bit of a different damage type and some more AoEs.  Maybe give the set a unique mechanic where all attacks start with a few charges, and it requires no end to use powers with charges, but you have to expend end to reload your weapon.  In short, it's not, (at least IMHO), that AR is a bad set that causes me to not play it, it's that it doesn't really feel like an AR at all to me...

[kelika2]

Flechette rounds are a thing irl.  Rename Buckshot to Flechettes.  same damage, remove knockback, add lethal DoT

Rename Ignite to Napalm.  No more fake-pet, 1-5 target limit in a small area, fast ticking medium duration dot

[kelika2]

1 hour ago, biostem said:

My issue with AR has more to do with it trying to do too many things at once, (AKA being a "Frankengun"), instead of being a really good assault rifle.

Consider Wolf Spider soldier.  The K11 AR irl is an assault rifle with a grenade launcher on it.

Take buildup in Bane Spider and bam, and bang, and pew.  and dakka.

[nihilii]

I think we're looking at more than a -10% difference with AR.

 

In my opinion, the problems come down to:

- slow animation times

- no T3 singletarget blast

- mixed bag secondary effects

- cones of various arcs and ranges require a great deal of positioning, which is a hidden damage tax compared to easier sets where you just click your TAoE/PBAoE on a mob somewhat close to the center

- Full Auto used to be the unique thing of AR, a crashless fast recharge nuke. However many sets with better crashless nukes have been introduced, and ultimately nukes' crashes were removed. Even though FA got an animation time buff and DoT speed buff, I think there's still more that ought to be done for parity

 

I'd look at these for potential fixes:

1) give the Screech treatment to Beanbag: turn it into a legitimate T3 singletarget blast
2) speed up Flamethrower from 2.5s to 1.8s. Speed up M30 Grenade from 1.8s to 1.2s.

3) increase Ignite damage by 50%.

 

Goals being to 1) give AR a decent singletarget rotation 2) make the AoE rotation less limited by animation times 3) turn Ignite into AR's special thing, more ST damage should you set up your environment to make the most out of it.

 

But I'm no AR expert... The set just lacked something for me everytime I tried.

That awful Blaster change way back when they pushed old animations for T2 blasts to 1.848s really didn't help. The dead pause in Slug feels completely unnatural, and given that AR only has 2 ST attacks (now 3 with fast snipe), you have to live with this.

[UltraAlt]

On 12/22/2022 at 9:51 PM, Weylin said:

As much as I like the theme of this power set, if you ask anyone that has a deep understanding of the game, they'll invariably tell you it's bad.

 

Well, they didn't ask me.

I enjoy assault rifle when I play it.

 

I'm fine with the set.

 

Some people only play one way. They play the way they want instead of working with a power set and using it to it's advantage.

[Weylin]

10 hours ago, UltraAlt said:

 

Well, they didn't ask me.

I enjoy assault rifle when I play it.

 

I'm fine with the set.

 

Some people only play one way. They play the way they want instead of working with a power set and using it to it's advantage.

What would you say are the advantages of the AR set that should be leaned into?

[Mjolnerd]

On 12/22/2022 at 6:51 PM, Weylin said:

...but face the KB2KD tax if you don't want things randomly flinging around...

Equating a power --especially a single-target power-- having knockback to "things randomly flinging around" is a PEBCAK issue.

[Rudra]

On 12/22/2022 at 7:51 PM, Weylin said:

Sniper Rifle doesn't have a shorter cast time while in Quick Form, but it has a 1 second faster cast time compared to other snipes while out of combat, so it's a lower DPA snipe compared to other sets once combat is underway, just gets the initial shot off faster, but interrupt time is still 2 seconds.

Looking through the snipes in the Blaster AT.

 

Archery: Ranged Shot: Available level 18; 1.67 quick cast time; 3.67 normal cast time.

Assault Rifle: Sniper Rifle: Available level 12; 1.5 quick cast time; 2.67 normal cast time.

Beam Rifle: Penetrating Ray: Available level 18; 1.67 quick cast time; 3.4 normal cast time.

Dark Blast: Moonbeam: Available level 8; 1.33 quick cast time; 3.33 normal cast time.

Electrical Blast: Zapp: Available level 12; 1.33 quick cast time; 3.33 normal cast time.

Energy Blast: Sniper Blast: Available level 8; 1.33 quick cast time; 3.33 normal cast time.

Fire Blast: Blazing Bolt: Available level 22; 1.67 quick cast time; 3.67 normal cast time.

Psychic Blast: Psionic Lance: Available level 12; 1.33 quick cast time; 3.0 normal cast time.

Radiation Blast: Proton Volley: Available level 12; 1.33 quick cast time; 3.33 normal cast time.

Seismic Blast: Tombstone: Available level 18; 1.67 quick cast time; 3.67 normal cast time.

Dual Pistols, Ice Blast, Sonic Attack, and Water Blast don't have snipes.

 

So Assault Rifle does actually have a shorter cast time in Quick Form mode, has the fastest normal cast time, and has the average quick cast time. And like with other snipes, is not subject to being interrupted while in Quick Form mode. If Sniper Rifle did not have its Quick Form cast time adjusted up to 1.5, it would be a .67 cast time sniper attack. That would be roughly half the time of the fastest Quick Form snipes in the game.

 

As for Ignite having a strong fear reaction? Any damaging TAoE with continuing effect imposes insane fear on mobs these days. It is a rather big complaint from several individuals including myself.

 

(All data pulled from City of Data https://cod.uberguy.net/html/archetype.html?at=blaster .)

[biostem]

5 hours ago, Weylin said:

What would you say are the advantages of the AR set that should be leaned into?

Weapon customization?

[UltraAlt]

12 hours ago, Weylin said:

What would you say are the advantages of the AR set that should be leaned into?

 

long ranged attacks, multiple powers to keep targets at a distance, multiple damage types, a power debuff defense (which one can use one when held if a Blaster)

Pair it with devices and you get even more powers to keep enemies at a distance, blind foes, and stealth yourself.

 

Move in. Pick off high level targets or minions on the fringes. Fall back and take out whatever targets get through your traps.

 

it's not bulldozing. It's finessing the powers.

 

The damage is good and there are several powers in the Assault Rifle set that can really make a difference if you have a good tanker on your team that knows how to  use taunt.

[Zect]

On 12/23/2022 at 10:51 AM, Weylin said:

As much as I like the theme of this power set, if you ask anyone that has a deep understanding of the game, they'll invariably tell you it's bad.

 

If they tell you it's bad, they do not have a deep understanding of the game.

[Galaxy Brain]

On 12/25/2022 at 8:32 AM, UltraAlt said:

 

long ranged attacks, multiple powers to keep targets at a distance, multiple damage types, a power debuff defense (which one can use one when held if a Blaster)

Pair it with devices and you get even more powers to keep enemies at a distance, blind foes, and stealth yourself.

 

Move in. Pick off high level targets or minions on the fringes. Fall back and take out whatever targets get through your traps.

 

it's not bulldozing. It's finessing the powers.

 

The damage is good and there are several powers in the Assault Rifle set that can really make a difference if you have a good tanker on your team that knows how to  use taunt.

 

This also describes energy blast + devices, aside from -Def.

 

Also describes Ice Blast with its mixed damage types, ability to picl out individuals, and the slows keep foes at bay. I dont think anyone will say AR > Ice Blast.

 

 

Yes, you can make any set in the game work and be functional. However that doesnt mean a particular set is "good" in comparison to other sets in it's pool.

Edited December 26, 2022 by Galaxy Brain

[UltraAlt]

3 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

I dont think anyone will say AR > Ice Blast.

 

absolutes are often wrong.

 

I like Ice blast, but, like all slow sets, they generally take longer to defeat foes.

[Wavicle]

Assault Rifle IS a lot better at AoE than Ice.

[plainguy]

On 12/23/2022 at 3:04 AM, biostem said:

My issue with AR has more to do with it trying to do too many things at once, (AKA being a "Frankengun"), instead of being a really good assault rifle.  For instance, you could have a series of short controlled bursts for cone attacks, instead of a shoehorned-in shotgun blast and magic flamethrower.  Have it ablate the target's armor, thereby imparting small but stacking -DEF and -RES with every attack.  You could include W.P. or explosive ammo if you wanted to add a bit of a different damage type and some more AoEs.  Maybe give the set a unique mechanic where all attacks start with a few charges, and it requires no end to use powers with charges, but you have to expend end to reload your weapon.  In short, it's not, (at least IMHO), that AR is a bad set that causes me to not play it, it's that it doesn't really feel like an AR at all to me...

I like what biostem mentioned. 

Or something along these lines
 

Mercenaries

Burst, Slug, and M30 Grenade

• Each of these attacks applies a Focused Fire tag on the target for 30s.
• Each power's tag will increase Mercenary ranged damage by 3.33%, up to a maximum of 10%.

[Zeraphia]

First of all before I type this: no, not every set should be meta. Not every set is meant to be the absolute best of the best, and I'm also not advocating for the set to become a "meta set."

 

However, I will go over details on why it isn't and why people do have problems with it.

 

- As @nihilii mentions, the ST potential of this set is... one of the worst in the game, probably honestly in the bottom 3 of any set except pure defense or most control sets. There's a couple of reasons for this, as the poster mentions, the animation times are extremely slow compared to most blast sets. But this is further amplified by the fact that most of the damage is in lethal damage. Lethal damage is the most resisted damage type in the entire game, and especially found with early-level mobs. So, the set starts off in a bad spot, does being 50 and procing it out help it later? It does, but the value it adds is limited when the set is already at such bad animation time values and the fact lethal resistances don't tend to drop off that hard against mob groups doesn't help either.

 

- Honestly, the ST of the set could be the natural "drawback" of the set in such the way of Spines if these AoE's (and I believe this is the way they were designed) kind of broken. Water Blast kind of "stole" this from AR, being a sort of "prettier" sister trading ST for incredible and almost incomparable AoE. AR's AoEs are extremely clunky. The Flamethrower ability is just too slow to activate all the immense damage it could potentially do and too easy to walk out of for most mobs. You can use this ability on "choke points" but that has only limited availability and application. Making it an "iffy" power that's supposed to define the set and be one of the strongest ones but ends up usually leaving you in disappointment. FA was also supposed to be extremely good as at the time there were not crashless nukes, however those times are long gone, sets are vastly improved and this set was designed well before they figured it out with Water Blast. 

 

So you have a situation where, do you want to make massive QoL improvements to the set and make it really good numerically, but a different set almost entirely with a major facelift even if it feels amazing and has the same gun and risk making segments of the AR fanbase angry. or do you keep these same clunky powers to appease the current AR users who like it the way it is?

 

To that, I don't know the answer.

[Galaxy Brain]

On 12/26/2022 at 12:08 PM, UltraAlt said:

 

absolutes are often wrong.

 

I like Ice blast, but, like all slow sets, they generally take longer to defeat foes.

The latter part is demonstratedly false by looking at records with ice blast vs a lot of other sets. Historically, Ice has also been up there with Fire in terms of overall power level even on live. You're right in that absolutes are usually wrong, but in this case I am referring to how there is a lot of evidence saying that ice > ar for blasters.

 

On the AoE side, AR likely pulls ahead with Force Feedback in play but in my own testing Ice was able to consistently clear x8 maps about 13s faster than AR specifically.  

(Source below, slightly outdated but there have not been significant changes to AR or Ice since this post that I recall)

 

 

 

[UltraAlt]

6 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

On the AoE side, AR likely pulls ahead with Force Feedback in play but in my own testing Ice was able to consistently clear x8 maps about 13s faster than AR specifically.  

(Source below, slightly outdated but there have not been significant changes to AR or Ice since this post that I recall)

 

I'm not an end-gamer. I don't care about what happens in x8 maps. I'm not a farmer.

 

In team use sub 50, between assault rifle and ice blast, ice blast lags behind unless my character's secondary is martial arts.