Are there any underpowered power sets you'd like to see buffed?

[Infinitum]

You don't fight ordinary people in this game.  Everyone you fight is extraordinary in some way...You never have a battle with 200 lvl 0 citizens...

 

As I said, there are MANY problems that Superman can't solve alone, and he needs friends for...And honestly there is only 1 Superman in the DC Universe [well, except for Superboy, Jonathan, Kal-el (who's back), Cyborg Superman, Supergirl, Krypto (okay there isn't really just one)], but the idea still stands that in a city of 80K Superheroes, we can't all be Superman (or Statesman either)...We can get really close, but the game should still have limits for ALL heroes that preclude them from soloing +4/8 with AV's.

 

+4/x8 with AVs is still a gross simplification of difficulty. +4/x8 Council is a completely different level of challenge from +4/8 Carnies or +4/x8 Vanguard. When we start to have builds that can solo anything at +4/8 (i.e. Superman levels of power), then it's probably time to start looking at maybe nerfing things, but right now we're actually looking at builds that can solo some enemy groups and AVs at +4/8 which is more corresponding to something like Hulk: ridiculously powerful and not unique in their level of power, but not omnipotent. All of this goes to say that having dozens of heroes in Paragon City able to solo at +4/x8 is ok and consistent with most superhero universes, and we haven't yet crossed the line where we have even one player controller Superman running around.

 

Aaand there is that kryptonite thing too.

 

Superman wasnt indestructible

[DSorrow]

Aaand there is that kryptonite thing too.

 

Superman wasnt indestructible

 

True. Still, even if we consider "objectively OP" equivalent to being almost indestructible, I want to emphasize that there's a really big distance from "being essentially immune against conventional guns and blades or a particular element" to "being only weak to one specific thing", and our +4/x8 soloers are closer to the former, which isn't all that uncommon when you look at comic books. There are several enemy groups I'd be pretty confident to claim can't be consistently soloed at +4/x8: Vanguard, Banished Pantheon, many Praetorian enemy groups, etc., so there's a variety of enemies that in high level mobs can overcome our most powerful heroes. We don't need nerfs or Kryptonite just yet because no builds are that powerful.

[marcussmythe]

Aaand there is that kryptonite thing too.

 

Superman wasnt indestructible

 

True. Still, even if we consider "objectively OP" equivalent to being almost indestructible, I want to emphasize that there's a really big distance from "being essentially immune against conventional guns and blades or a particular element" to "being only weak to one specific thing", and our +4/x8 soloers are closer to the former, which isn't all that uncommon when you look at comic books. There are several enemy groups I'd be pretty confident to claim can't be consistently soloed at +4/x8: Vanguard, Banished Pantheon, many Praetorian enemy groups, etc., so there's a variety of enemies that in high level mobs can overcome our most powerful heroes. We don't need nerfs or Kryptonite just yet because no builds are that powerful.

 

The Debuff Crew (Vanguard, BP, Longbow, various praetorian groups) I treat with a lot of care and respect.  I enjoy ramping up the diffy against them and hitting every button just right and having a plan before every pull - and I still spend a fair amount of time running back from the local hospital.

 

The secret (if there is one) to handling them seems to be hit and fade.  Dont be married to the idea that once you enagage that group, you arent moving till the last one falls.  Get in, lay down as much damage as possible, cut the incoming fire/debuffs, and then get out when your (monitored) DEF, RES, etc. start collapsing.  Dont wait for your HP bar to move - once they have your defense/res/regen down and your HP bar is moving, its usually too late.

 

Its honestly a refreshing change from 'Oh, look another group of Demons/Warwolves/Hydra/Warriors/etc stomp stomp stomp loot'.  Im sure there are builds that can faceroll all those groups, but I dont know what they would be.

 

Threadtax:

 

Whatever we want the overall temperature/power level to be of the game, I -really- want people to be able to pick any powerset within an AT, because it fit their story/theme, and not feel particularly disadvantages.  The times I get cranky about set imbalance is when my choice fells like its reduced to 1.)  Play what is good.  2.)  Play what fits the character and accept a large mechanical disadvantage.

 

 

[justicebeliever]

 

there was a time before purple triangles you could solo +4 /8 with AVs with just SOs it was actually pretty easy, then came the purple triangles where you almost always had to have a rad to beat an AV. Now I think it's pretty good because with a lot of work, planning and high end builds you can take on an AV solo again.

 

Like I said if that irks you slot SOs and play with other people that wants to spend 10 minutes to hammer 1 lesser AV target down.  I like feeling overpowered in my build I spent all the time on and so does the 30 or 40 of us in our coalition.

 

We are playing end game content at high levels and still occassionaly have a team wipe.

 

If you aren't being challenged end game you aren't doing it right.  Incarnate should be able to solo +4/8 radio / regular missions.  I can't tell you the last time I played a radio mission or regular contact mission. That's why there are Itrial and end game task forces.

 

EDIT:  Forgot to actually add a post...yikes...there goes another marble of mine rolling away...

 

I don't feel I need to be penalized for wanting a challenge...It's really easy to just say - well if you don't like something, just don't do it...but that will always depend on context and goals.

 

I like the progression of low level hero surviving with whatever training or dual origins I get as drops, to going to creating standard IO's for all my powers, to crafting sets...That part is fun.  What I don't like is when anybody who has a maxed build can solo whatever AV they want, and barring hitting a bad run of luck, will usually prevail.  Then the game has no challenge anymore.  And just gimping myself to solve the problem shouldn't be the answer. 

 

The game was always designed around having to team up to take on the toughest content, and that mechanic should still be present in the game.

 

I don't mean this as an insult (in fact, I'm enjoying talking this out - helps to clarify what this all really means to me), but this last post I quote was kinda all over the map...Are you in part saying that incarnate content is the content you can't solo?

 

I like feeling overpowered in my build I spent all the time on

 

still occasionally have a team wipe

 

If you aren't being challenged end game you aren't doing it right.

 

Incarnate should be able to solo +4/8 radio / regular missions

 

 

[justicebeliever]

You don't fight ordinary people in this game.  Everyone you fight is extraordinary in some way...You never have a battle with 200 lvl 0 citizens...

 

As I said, there are MANY problems that Superman can't solve alone, and he needs friends for...And honestly there is only 1 Superman in the DC Universe [well, except for Superboy, Jonathan, Kal-el (who's back), Cyborg Superman, Supergirl, Krypto (okay there isn't really just one)], but the idea still stands that in a city of 80K Superheroes, we can't all be Superman (or Statesman either)...We can get really close, but the game should still have limits for ALL heroes that preclude them from soloing +4/8 with AV's.

 

+4/x8 with AVs is still a gross simplification of difficulty. +4/x8 Council is a completely different level of challenge from +4/8 Carnies or +4/x8 Vanguard. When we start to have builds that can solo anything at +4/8 (i.e. Superman levels of power), then it's probably time to start looking at maybe nerfing things, but right now we're actually looking at builds that can solo some enemy groups and AVs at +4/8 which is more corresponding to something like Hulk: ridiculously powerful and not unique in their level of power, but not omnipotent. All of this goes to say that having dozens of heroes in Paragon City able to solo at +4/x8 is ok and consistent with most superhero universes, and we haven't yet crossed the line where we have even one player controller Superman running around.

 

I appreciate how you framed this, and for that, +1 Inf. 

 

And I agree that some villain groups are going to be harder than other groups...My point is more the Archvillains, more so than the +4/x8 (although I still feel strongly about that, it's less important to me).  Now the solution doesn't have to be nerfing anything.  Just up the AV's strength/powers/defenses etc...

 

Again with Superman...if even Superman needs help against his biggest arch-villains, why shouldn't our characters...that's what's most consistent with Superhero Universes.  There is a ton of content that doesn't have AV's in it...where the hero single handedly saves the day (well with the help of their contacts at least).  But for the biggest of the bads...you should need help...

[HelenCarnate]

Ice Armor has a bigger fire hole than Fiery Aura has a cold hole (ice has 12.5% fire resist, fire has 20% cold resist). Fire is also a bit more common. I could see at least equalizing them.

 

They’re never going to be equal, because Ice has Defense to Smash/Lethal, which is often paired with Fire damage, but not always. In fact, you probably have it backwards; Fire is likely more vulnerable to Cold than Ice is to Fire, because of that defense. Also, Cold usually comes with -Recharge, which messes up Fire with its reliance on its self-heal, while Fire Damage rarely comes with any other side effect.

 

 

I honestly am not even ready to get involved with this discussion of Fire vs Ice yet...because neither one is even remotely close to being on par with WP, Elec, Shield or even Invuln for that matter.

 

Until Ice and Fire gets the love they need to bring them on par with WP and the other top ranking sets, I'm cannot even be concerned with how they stack up against each other.

 

Ice is good, do not get me wrong, but it pales in comparison to WP and the other sets. And personally, to me, Fire seems very gimp against anything other than the silly farms Fire Tanks like to do....which makes them useless in my eyes.

 

My Fire brute is gimp against heavy Psi and Toxic and I have to pay attention and heal with Energy and Negative.  Hardly gimp overall.  In exchange for those weaknesses I can lay a burn patch, have a damage aura and another damage boost that works for 20 seconds and can still boost damage even if a Kin has me at the damage cap.

[Xaeon]

Fiery Aura is not a tanking set. It's a "make my enemies dead before I die" set.

[Legree]

Now the solution doesn't have to be nerfing anything.  Just up the AV's strength/powers/defenses etc...

 

Except then that same AV would be impossible to defeat with a team that isn't fully IO'd and Incarnate'd.

 

AV soloing has always been a thing - all that's changed is that Incarnates allow a wider range of ATs and powerset combinations to brute force it rather than it being mostly the speciality of certain high end builds.  There's only one solution to this particular balance question, and almost noone would be happy if it were implemented.

 

Make Incarnate Powers unusable in any non-Incarnate content.  Level 50 door missions in PI or Grandville?  Nope.  ITF?  Nope.  STF and LRSF?  Nope.  None of that content was designed with Incarnates in mind, and so of course Incarnates will trivialise it.

 

[Infinitum]

 

there was a time before purple triangles you could solo +4 /8 with AVs with just SOs it was actually pretty easy, then came the purple triangles where you almost always had to have a rad to beat an AV. Now I think it's pretty good because with a lot of work, planning and high end builds you can take on an AV solo again.

 

Like I said if that irks you slot SOs and play with other people that wants to spend 10 minutes to hammer 1 lesser AV target down.  I like feeling overpowered in my build I spent all the time on and so does the 30 or 40 of us in our coalition.

 

We are playing end game content at high levels and still occassionaly have a team wipe.

 

If you aren't being challenged end game you aren't doing it right.  Incarnate should be able to solo +4/8 radio / regular missions.  I can't tell you the last time I played a radio mission or regular contact mission. That's why there are Itrial and end game task forces.

 

EDIT:  Forgot to actually add a post...yikes...there goes another marble of mine rolling away...

 

I don't feel I need to be penalized for wanting a challenge...It's really easy to just say - well if you don't like something, just don't do it...but that will always depend on context and goals.

And who YOU CHOOSE to team with there is over 100k people with multiple characters, I'm sure you can find, build a themed sg with that would meet your goals.  It really is that simple and only you control that end.

 

Constantly joining with ultra powered incarnates like myself then griping about how we enjoy playing the game isnt our fault, it's yours when you have many avenues to avoid even seeing what irritates you so bad.

 

I like the progression of low level hero surviving with whatever training or dual origins I get as drops, to going to creating standard IO's for all my powers, to crafting sets...That part is fun.  What I don't like is when anybody who has a maxed build can solo whatever AV they want, and barring hitting a bad run of luck, will usually prevail.  Then the game has no challenge anymore.  And just gimping myself to solve the problem shouldn't be the answer.

you make it sound easier than it is, I havent figured out how to solo any of the AVs ive come across, incarnate content or not.  I can survive indefinitely against all but 3 ive faced being Bobcat because she actually 2 shotted my glorious incarnate butt, lord recluse in the STF at full power, and hamidon in LGTF.  The people I have seen solo AVs its not an easy task, they still have to rely on many things going right to accomplish it and moreover usually takes a longer than normal time to do it, so teaming actually is optimal for thoae that can solo AVs. I may be able to do it, but don't have the patience to try honestly, because I need a team to make it faster.

The game was always designed around having to team up to take on the toughest content, and that mechanic should still be present in the game.

not true, in early days of the game AVs used to be super easy to beat. Just about any well built SO build could beat most AVs.  Not in a drawn out match either more like facing an Elite Boss at current states of the game.

 

They made it incredibly hard overnight in one issue, I cant remember which one, but it was when everyone started building all the /rad troller defender types because you almost had to have a /rad to debufd the AV to bring it down.

 

I don't mean this as an insult (in fact, I'm enjoying talking this out - helps to clarify what this all really means to me), but this last post I quote was kinda all over the map...Are you in part saying that incarnate content is the content you can't solo?

no, not at all, I could probably solo large portions of task forces like Tin Mage and the ITF, but mainly becausr I'm set up to be highly resistant against those damage types, but even then that's a slog and it is more fun rolling through it with a team.  It makes you feel like the unstoppable hero team has arrived and the bad guys shouldnt have considered facing us anyways, then you get to the av part and you have to be a bit more careful, like I said bobcat 2 shotted me one time and then several others after me. But we were facing 4 Ava at once and it was probably about a 10-15 minute fight with just that part.  It felt like the final show down.  To me thats how the game should feel.

 

Radio missions pffft I dont even do them anymore because they are easy, beneath me now, but thats why there are high level contacts, task forces, and trials which are incredibly fun and rewarding even for a team of iOd out incarnate.

 

I have other characters I play for low level content, and when those get iOd and incarnated out, I'll roll more because the combinations are endless in this game and I literally have 20 characters I have rolled and more poping in my head each day that I want to try.  Never once has any super team I have been on trivialized the content for me because ultimately I choose what I play and who I play with.

[justicebeliever]

Legree, Infinitum -

 

As I said in my original post on this thread - I know mine is an unpopular opinion.

 

None of your arguments have swayed me, but I also know that none of mine have had an effect either.

 

As I also said, this is going to stop me from playing, nor does it RUIN my fun, it's just a little less fun than I would like.  But that's an opinion, which I am allowed to have, it is not a request or suggestion to change anything.

 

Appreciate the discussion fellow posters!

[vidfinnx]

Willpower for PVP, STOP Rise to the challenge FROM DETOGGLING EVERY 10 SECONDS by the time you finish its long animation turning it back on from mezzes and stuns, powerset is useless as hell without that running it should not be crippled like this, its not like its to-hit debuff is that huge anyway, hell disable that debuff in pvp

[OldSchool SC Fight Club]

Solo maybe some are slightly underpowered.... but for team play... thanks to OP incarnate.. you won't use half your abilities...

[Galaxy Brain]

Solo maybe some are slightly underpowered.... but for team play... thanks to OP incarnate.. you won't use half your abilities...

 

It sounds like incarnate abilities are the issue here, which is a seperate conversation.

[Xaeon]

I dunno man, Warframe has an even higher player vs enemy power curve than CoX and has been going on strong for years; not even the strongest enemies can survive a Chrome Prime with a Rubico Prime for more than thirty seconds if they know what they're doing; and yet its the king of the lootshooter genre. I don't think as many people really mind high end builds being able to solo AVs as you think.

[Zolgar]

I'm gonna throw in on saying Stone needs a buff as well.

 

Here's the thing:

Stone is an artifact of the old designs, when you could only run one toggle at a time, when you had to be selective about what you used, when toggled mez protection came with a serious down side.

 

If we discount T9s. Stone armor is easily one of the worst armor sets in the game.

"But Zolgar, Granite is amazing!"

It is, yes.. but the rest of Stone shouldn't be a punishment to get to Granite. Granite should be what T9s were always meant to be, an 'oh shit button'. Granite's massive debuffs make up for it being a toggle and not killing you when it crashes (... don't get me started on crashing T9s, that's a different matter entirely), but if we don't run Granite full time, Stone is a pretty poor mixed-bag set.

It offers decent enough defense to most attacks. No defense, but resist to fire and cold, a meager amount of smashing/lethal resist, a dull pain power, and some minor regen in its mez protection (which comes at the cost of making you unable to jump and moving about as fast as Walk.), and mud pots. All the while, for how little survival it offers you, and how much it hinders your movement, Stone is hell on your endurance.

 

With just SOs? You cannot build much of any survival out of a Graniteless stoner.

With IOs? You can make a Graniteless stoner viable, but the same work/money put in to any other armor set will probably yield something better.

 

Some will argue that there are plenty of power sets in the game that don't really shine until they hit a certain point, often their capstone/T9 power. Most controller primaries for example, the difference though is this:

I don't think there is any other set that prevents you from performing your role within a team until you get your T9. Have you ever tried to tank as a Pre-granite stoner? Have you ever played a pre-granite Stoner brute?

 

I can't tell you how many times I got mezed because I had to turn off Rooted to keep up with the team, and didn't get it back on quite in time for the fight, just in the short gap between getting Rooted and when I was able to fit Teleport in to the build.

 

Which is another mark against Stone- If you don't take teleport, you are seriously hurting yourself, especially in this day and age of everyone being Sonic the Hedgehog in game. Ain't no one got time to wait for the Granite tank to walk around that 2 inch ledge.

 

My suggestions for Stone, personally:

Granite: As is, except! Allow Granite to jump, debuff the max height, but allowing us to clear at least small obstacles without teleport would remove my only real complaint about Granite (I don't -like- the recharge and damage debuffs, but I understand that they balance the power)

Rooted: Remove the speed debuff, keep the inability to jump in place, and keep it mutually exclusive with movement powers, but allow us to move at a normal running pace.

Just those changes would make Stone actually seem playable, but still pretty bottom tier.

My last change would be to Stone Skin:

Add an additional effect for each of the 4 non-Granite armors you have running, something like-

Rock Armor: A small amount of Absorb every x seconds (that lasts x seconds).

Brimstone Armor: A small increase to damage

Crystal Armor: A small boost to endurance recovery.

Minerals: a small endurance discount.

 

 

[Waypoint]

I dislike the talk of nerfing sets. Don't get me wrong, some sets should be because they're unfinished (bio armor), but predominantly the power sets should be buffed.

 

The community seems to shy away from wanting to revamp power sets completely in fear of changing the game too much, but I would welcome it. Rename it "Legacy Force Field" and add "Force Field" with altered powers for example, to make everyone happy. I just don't think the desire to keep something like it was is healthy. It just stagnates the game.

[justicebeliever]

I dislike the talk of nerfing sets. Don't get me wrong, some sets should be because they're unfinished (bio armor), but predominantly the power sets should be buffed.

 

The community seems to shy away from wanting to revamp power sets completely in fear of changing the game too much, but I would welcome it. Rename it "Legacy Force Field" and add "Force Field" with altered powers for example, to make everyone happy. I just don't think the desire to keep something like it was is healthy. It just stagnates the game.

 

Well to be fair, nerfing a power set is not keeping the game as is.  It won't stagnate the game either, and would produce more challenge

[GritIron]

Most Lethal Damage Sets could use a once over to improve there performance in latter content where most content and baddies are stacked with lethal resistance out the wazoo.  Maybe giving them a -res effect on a power or two wouldn't be so bad.

 

Energy Melee could use a hard look, but Rylas is all over advocating for that.

[Emerald Orchid]

Something with Kheldians that I think would be popular... Instead of turning off the toggles while in forms, instead suppress them and their costs so they don't have to sit around and turn them back on when they go to human form.

I think that a full redo of them may be in order, and having the nova/dwarf powers behave more like combat stances or bio adaptations.

The sheer numbers of powers to choose from leads to people not really feeling capable as they spread out their enhancement slots too thinly. (and the vast majority of the powers are probably never even used by experienced Kheldian players)

Though it would probably be easier to make an entirely different archetype instead of messing with existing characters.

[MsSmart]

On 6/14/2019 at 9:38 AM, 0th Power said:

Unpopular opinion - I think there are too many overpowered power sets as is and would like to see them brought down a bit.  The game with a team is pretty easy and with the "right" team is an absolute cakewalk.  I like feeling super as much as the next guy, but it seems (anecdotal evidence) that there are too many sets that can solo +4/x8s, which Im not sure if anyone should be able to do.

 

That being said, if they decide to buff every power set and make the game even easier, I'll probably still play.

 

EDIT - I would like to see the Energy melee activation times cut down for selfish reasons.

I can feel your pain, but the game does let you "spice it up" when you select the challenges during mission accept, just say no Pv2 powers, no travel, and what not, and the cake walk feel tends to go away. It may be interesting, if more handicaps/challenges could be added like mobs with double their resistances, mobs resistance debuff effects are doubled, double regen, and what not, can really change the feel for the game. I suggest that new challenges be focused on the melee, for the support already have the lion's share of the challenges focused on them, thus giving a support player all the challenge they would want, and at the same time, at last, giving the melee types the challenge they been clamoring for so long.

 

Sue

[MsSmart]

Kinetic melee attacks need fixing...

 

Their damage seems to be at par with the other damage sets, until you experience the fastidious graphics the require. They look cool, but by the time you get the attack to go off, all your enemies got a few rounds of hits on you, and then you finally hit them for the same damage another power set quickly delivered. I don't mind Kinetic melee taking longer, but if it takes 3 times longer than the other sets to execute, then triple the damage it renders "or" reduce the graphic time to be relative to the base damage they do.

 

Sue

[Rudra]

3 minutes ago, MsSmart said:

Kinetic melee attacks need fixing...

 

Their damage seems to be at par with the other damage sets, until you experience the fastidious graphics the require. They look cool, but by the time you get the attack to go off, all your enemies got a few rounds of hits on you, and then you finally hit them for the same damage another power set quickly delivered. I don't mind Kinetic melee taking longer, but if it takes 3 times longer than the other sets to execute, then triple the damage it renders "or" reduce the graphic time to be relative to the base damage they do.

 

Sue

This was addressed in another thread. I don't feel like combing the forum to find it again, but what it boiled down to was perception. Kinetics melee applies its damage at the end of the animation and the other sets applied it at the start. So it seems to have a longer animation time. The damage and animation times are actually comparable, in some cases it favored kinetic melee. The timing of damage application is what gives that perception.

 

That said, I am running purely off memory here. So if I'm misrepresenting this, someone please correct me.

[Emerald Orchid]

Redraw animation hurts spines a little bit. There was another thread talking about some AT staff set didn't have an option for no redraw which would impact effectiveness too.

Lots of sets would benefit from animation time improvements. Why I always avoid Shadow Maul and Sands of Mu.

The phase shift powers (Dimension Shift, Black Hole, etc) I think would REALLY benefit from becoming a time limited toggle (like Hibernate and Hybrid incarnates)

I also really wish there were alternate animations for medicine pool. Like using animation from PB Glowing Touch for aid other instead of the tricorder.

[kelika2]

Animation/activation time speedups for many things

spines

radiation infection

dark toggle rising or whatever

bitter freeze ray

sonic stuff/alt animation sonic stuff

project will

etc

im just too bored to type it out

[Seed22]

On 7/10/2019 at 10:42 AM, marcussmythe said:

 

The Debuff Crew (Vanguard, BP, Longbow, various praetorian groups) I treat with a lot of care and respect.  I enjoy ramping up the diffy against them and hitting every button just right and having a plan before every pull - and I still spend a fair amount of time running back from the local hospital.

 

The secret (if there is one) to handling them seems to be hit and fade.  Dont be married to the idea that once you enagage that group, you arent moving till the last one falls.  Get in, lay down as much damage as possible, cut the incoming fire/debuffs, and then get out when your (monitored) DEF, RES, etc. start collapsing.  Dont wait for your HP bar to move - once they have your defense/res/regen down and your HP bar is moving, its usually too late.

 

Its honestly a refreshing change from 'Oh, look another group of Demons/Warwolves/Hydra/Warriors/etc stomp stomp stomp loot'.  Im sure there are builds that can faceroll all those groups, but I dont know what they would be.

 

Threadtax:

 

Whatever we want the overall temperature/power level to be of the game, I -really- want people to be able to pick any powerset within an AT, because it fit their story/theme, and not feel particularly disadvantages.  The times I get cranky about set imbalance is when my choice fells like its reduced to 1.)  Play what is good.  2.)  Play what fits the character and accept a large mechanical disadvantage.

 

 

My question always is: What makes a toon feel reduced to these levels? Is it because you don’t do a smattering of damage compared to fire? They shouldn’t, it’s FIRE. Or is it the lack of NEEDING support. My problem is if support is ever NEEDED, I feel many will not be able to progress on their own time anf schedule because they don’t have a support with them. I want folks to feel valued, but never EVER needed.