Content diversity

[Mezicus]

Let me preface this post with a mission statement.  I would like to open a forum about how to diversify the content, in a way that supplies all AT's with a necessary purpose on TF's and Trials.

 

Not everyone will agree with this post, and you don't have to, but if you would like to add something, please consider the spirit of the thread.  Food for thought and game/community growth.

 

Do you have a favorite character that you really enjoy playing but it's not exactly META?  Are you a stalker at heart or do you enjoy having some crowd control with your support?  Have you tried to get those characters into a 4* TF?  Unless you have very specific AT's and power sets, most teams are not interested.  We can't blame people for not wanting to start a 4 hour slog through content that was designed to be challenging.  It would be nice if there were mechanics (or enemies) that required AT's other than blasters, tanks, and corruptors.  I am not suggesting that we scrap any of the content that has been worked on so diligently.  I am humbly suggesting that we add some enemies or mechanics to TF's that offer other AT's a seat at the table and a place to shine.  LGTF is pretty tricky to accomplish without having a dominator/controller or a whole bunch of people that have holds.  Wouldn't it be nice if the content for the most challenging and rewarding content was also designed with the intention of including everyone?

 

Btw, if you have a response that starts with the word "Technically" or "Actually", you are just being argumentative, and your opinion is not welcome.  If you have some genuine interest in seeing all characters have the opportunity to be included in the fun and have some interesting and unique ideas on how to go about it, you are most welcome here!

[Rudra]

Did you have anything in particular in mind? (That usually helps get the ball rolling. I'm drawing a blank right now.)

[biostem]

The problem is that trying to "force-in" a need for specific ATs or power types usually results in that content going unused.  You need to come up with a way for every AT to both contribute, but even more importantly, to do so organically...

[UltraAlt]

2 minutes ago, Mezicus said:

I would like to open a forum about how to diversify the content, in a way that supplies all AT's with a necessary purpose on TF's and Trials.

 

This looks like a "general discussion" topic to me.

You aren't clearly defining a solution. It's more just stating what would considered to be problems.

This needs to get fleshed out more before it can really become a suggestion.

 

From the feedback side, I can agree with you on some tenants of this.

 

I really need to know where are you are coming from to make better comments.

Is this about the game itself - aka leveling?

-or-

Is this about the end-game - aka post leveling?

The answer to this makes a huge difference.

 

I play the game. I do not play the end-game.

I have not played VEATs or a Warshade on Homecoming.

 

From my experience, the only ATs that are "on the outs" on task forces or trails are stalkers. Stalkers are really designed for hit-and-run. Strike with assassin strike, maybe another couple of attacks, and then run-and get hide on before repeating. In group content, this chain can often get broken before the assassin strike because of an AoE hitting a nearby ally. 

 

Other than that, I don't have problems playing any other AT in task forces or trials.

 

The exception to me is really the Summer Blockbuster Event. Both parts are really built to need to have significant DPS. If you don't have enough DPS, you aren't going to be able to defeat the End-bosses in the Casino Heist and you aren't going to be able to spawn the God Champion in the Gladiator Arena. 

I have been on teams where the end-bosses in the Casino Heist can't defeat the end-bosses but the end-bosses can't defeat members of the team either.

(Yeah, I know that this can happen in content in general, but it appears that were talking about task forces and trails in this thread.

 

17 minutes ago, Mezicus said:

Wouldn't it be nice if the content for the most challenging and rewarding content was also designed with the intention of including everyone?

 

The 733t content is specifically build to be for the elite end-gamers. That is to say, it is built for end-gamer elite and not for the rest of us.

 

19 minutes ago, Mezicus said:

LGTF is pretty tricky to accomplish without having a dominator/controller or a whole bunch of people that have holds.

 

I haven't played this one for so long that I can't even remember it, so I'll bow out on this one.

 

20 minutes ago, Mezicus said:

It would be nice if there were mechanics (or enemies) that required AT's other than blasters, tanks, and corruptors.

 

I guess at this point, I should give you a better idea of where I'm coming from AT wise.

I haven't updated my spreadsheet yet, but here is a list by archetype and I'll also add how often I play them.

 

Archetype

Blaster - 16 - weekly

Brute - 2 -hardly ever

Controller -18 - weekly

Corruptor - 9 - weekly - currently because of Storm Blast

Defender - 14 - weekly - currently because of Storm Blast

Dominator - 13 - every other week

Mastermind - 20 - every other week

Scrapper - 16 - every other week

Sentinel -12 - every other week

Stalker - 9 - rarely

Tank - 16 - rarely - but current because I found out that I could make a martial arts/super reflexes tank

Peacebringer - 1 - hardly ever

----------

Total 146

 

I'm guessing that I recruit for more task forces or trials than I join out of LFG.

 

28 minutes ago, Mezicus said:

Have you tried to get those characters into a 4* TF?

 

I'm not sure what you mean by 4* TF.

 

29 minutes ago, Mezicus said:

We can't blame people for not wanting to start a 4 hour slog through content that was designed to be challenging.

 

This is why there are suggestions already out there to make the Task force and trail content gauged at a normal team being able to accomplish them between 30-60 minutes.

The Positron Task force being chopped in half is a good example of this.

 

Any 4 hour long task force needs to be cut into smaller parts.

The Community in general is older at this point and having the content broken into 30-60 minute parts would be more accessible for many players.

 

33 minutes ago, Mezicus said:

I am humbly suggesting that we add some enemies or mechanics to TF's that offer other AT's a seat at the table and a place to shine

 

What is you suggestion about enemies?

How would that work?

 

Mechanics-wise from my angle on this, would be content that would promote stealthing.

By this I mean to promote the stealthing in a way that it doesn't lead to a death trap for the team, nor for a "speed run". 

 

This seems to be sticky wicket on one level, but doable with some of the game mechanics already in the game.

 

There are bosses that are invincible while something hasn't been destroyed - generator(s) for example. Could also be communication device(s) that could be disabled to stop ambushes from being sent when an Boss/EB/VA gets low on health or a hostage is freed. Could be computer(s) that need to be hacked in order to open a door or maybe even to send a message to spawn a Boss/EB/VA into the mission.

These are things that teams could accomplish by defeating everyone on the way to the triggers, but that a stealth character could accomplish on their own as well. Nothing that would complete a mission without the rest of the team helping but also let stealth play a part if there is a stealth character on the team.

Is this the kind of mechanic you are looking for?

 

44 minutes ago, Mezicus said:

Btw, if you have a response that starts with the word "Technically" or "Actually", you are just being argumentative, and your opinion is not welcome.

 

Guess what. Your comment here is "argumentative"

You don't get to decide whose input is welcome or whose is not.

Everyone's input is welcome to any thread in these forums unless a GM or DEV decides otherwise.

 

If you don't want to communicate with someone, put them on ignore, but they are still welcome to post in the forms regardless if you have them on ignore or not.

 

 

[biostem]

7 minutes ago, UltraAlt said:

I haven't played this one for so long that I can't even remember it, so I'll bow out on this one.

The "mini-Hamidon raid" is what throws people off, and can bring the entire TF to a halt...

[Rudra]

27 minutes ago, UltraAlt said:

1 hour ago, Mezicus said:

Btw, if you have a response that starts with the word "Technically" or "Actually", you are just being argumentative, and your opinion is not welcome.

 

Guess what. Your comment here is "argumentative"

You don't get to decide whose input is welcome or whose is not.

Everyone's input is welcome to any thread in these forums unless a GM or DEV decides otherwise.

I missed that part. Thanks, @UltraAlt.

 

As @UltraAlt said, @Mezicus, no one gets to decide who can or cannot post on a thread on the forums other than the devs and forum moderators/GMs. Posting on the forums is an open invitation for everyone to read and respond to the post. Whether they agree or disagree.

[Bionic_Flea]

Any well built AT and power-set can complete and contribute to all content.  Admittedly, some are better than others for certain things.  If people aren't inviting your stalker (or whatever) to their 4* ITFs than start your own and you can set the conditions.

[TheZag]

 

2 hours ago, Mezicus said:

if you have a response that starts with the word "Technically" or "Actually", you are just being argumentative, and your opinion is not welcome

 

Technically,  saying  certain opinions aren't welcome while posting in the suggestion forum is a good way to have everyone actually talking about that instead and derail the topic.

 

[EmperorSteele]

The problem with making content that embraces all ATs and playstyles, is that then those ATs and playstyles must be mandatory. Imagine an underling that spawns a dozen at a time and cannot be damaged unless it is held. Good way for Trollers and Doms to feel useful, but GREAT for stalling progress if one isn't on the team, or thier AoE mez is still recharging, or they didn't take that power in the first place.

 

This isn't an absolute. In the Barracuda SF, only Stalkers (and Illu Controllers lol) can enter a specific room in order to click an optional glowey. In the Keyes Reactor iTrial, only characters with a certain amount of stealth can sneak into the back window of the little huts around the map; other characters have to blow up the front doors. But these are the only two examples I can think of off the top of my head.

[Greycat]

If we're talking "Must have a...." then... no, thanks. (Though, at some point it's a possibility everyone will have a hold, for instance, or a power with a hold component or whatnot. They're often in the ancillary/patron pools. )

 

If we're talking "If you happen to have an (insert AT here,) there's an alternate win condition" to spice things up or add some variety? Sure. That might be interesting to look into. Though it's more a question of if the way the game handles missions can handle it.

[Uun]

14 hours ago, Mezicus said:

Have you tried to get those characters into a 4* TF?  Unless you have very specific AT's and power sets, most teams are not interested.  We can't blame people for not wanting to start a 4 hour slog through content that was designed to be challenging.  It would be nice if there were mechanics (or enemies) that required AT's other than blasters, tanks, and corruptors. 

I've run plenty of HM content and it doesn't take more than 90 minutes if people know what they're doing (usually less). I've run it on controllers, dominators, defenders, etc. (in addition to tanks, blasters and corruptors). I've run every TF/SF/Trial in the game with just about every AT (I don't have any HEATs or VEATs) and never felt like I didn't have a role or purpose.

[srmalloy]

15 hours ago, Mezicus said:

I would like to open a forum about how to diversify the content, in a way that supplies all AT's with a necessary purpose on TF's and Trials.

As I read it, your intention is to take a game where, since launch, it has been possible to make a team out of whatever ATs show up and, aside from the artifically-cranked high-difficulty content, play through the content successfully, and rip that out to force the game into the same role-based team makeup that characterizes MMOs mindlessly aping WoW's fixation on the 'holy trinity'? If I'm reading this correctly, then I have to set a solid /jranger as my reaction; I have no interest in seeing CoH converted into an MMO where variations on "r u healzorz" are part of forming a team; there's already enough of that with the four-star Aeon SF's "essential: must have T4 Barrier" because people found 'this way works', and decided that it was the only way to do it, and don't seem interested in trying to find other ways.

[Clave Dark 5]

14 hours ago, UltraAlt said:

 Stalkers are really designed for hit-and-run. Strike with assassin strike, maybe another couple of attacks, and then run-and get hide on before repeating. In group content, this chain can often get broken before the assassin strike because of an AoE hitting a nearby ally.

Side note: you are out of the loop on stalkers.  I have tanked, and I have drawn MSR Rikti into the bowl with stalkers, for example. 

 

To be simple, they're Scrappers now with some special effects. 

 

Look into them, they rock!

[Mezicus]

Lady Grey task force has a mechanic imbedded into an enemy where you have to stack holds to make them vulnerable.  I thought that was a really great way of including AT's that are way less desirable on most TF's.  If there were more enemies in top end content, like 4 star TF's, then there would be more reason to include them.

 

If you wanted to include pet classes, you could have a mechanic in a hallway that requires a number of team members to sacrifice themselves to open a doorway to the next area.  That would make it usable by all AT's but prevent you from getting no deaths.

 

If you wanted to make stalkers important you could include a room that was filled with traps, that have improved detection so you have to do better than just stealth), for anyone that got seen.  Again, this wouldn't make the content unpassable or unplayable, but you would have to overwork your support team to get through it.

 

Crowd control has lost most of it's appeal because set bonuses can give you such amazing builds now that you don't really need someone to disable a mob before you fight, but if there were enemies that had a debuff ability or huge damage and a large hit pool, it would make the need for a controller or dominator much higher.  Again, this wouldn't prevent anyone from enjoying content, but it would incentivize the recruitment of primary CC AT.

 

I apologize if the intention of the thread came off as unclear.  The dev's have a lot on their plates with combing through bugs and designing new content so i thought it might be nice if we all did some public brainstorming about ways to make content more inclusive and appealing for all AT's.  I wouldn't be opposed to small changes with current content that included some of these ideas but i understand that would be more work for everyone involved, players and dev's included, so i think it would be much easier to include these idea types on future content so that everyone can be included on the fun.  Please feel free to add more ideas about ways to make other powersets or AT's that are less commonly used or recruited, more appealing to players and team leaders.

[Arc-Mage]

I respect where your heart is in this suggestion but, just like real life, not every build is equal. Without this diversity the game would be boring. 

[Bionic_Flea]

6 minutes ago, Mezicus said:

Crowd control has lost most of it's appeal because set bonuses can give you such amazing builds now that you don't really need someone to disable a mob before you fight, but if there were enemies that had a debuff ability or huge damage and a large hit pool, it would make the need for a controller or dominator much higher.  Again, this wouldn't prevent anyone from enjoying content, but it would incentivize the recruitment of primary CC AT.

 

As I recall, all the add on robots when fighting Nightstar and Citadel in the BAF trial were designed for crowd control to take care of while DPS and debuffers took care of the AVs.  It's certainly a valid strategy and maybe even an effective one when the I-trial first came out and no one had incarnate powers.  But now, as far as I can tell, everyone ignores the add-ons unless going for a badge. 

 

That's what happens to most content that seems to require certain roles, we either become strong enough to just steamroll it and/or learn tricks to work around them.

 

I have nothing against inserting situations into missions, TFs, and trials that let certain ATs shine as long as it's not a requirement.  LGTF's Hamidon needing some holds doesn't bother me, but the original Barracuda where certain ATs were required I did not like.

[TheZag]

I had a suggestion previously about adding positional resistances to enemies.  I thought that since positional defense existed,  positional resistance could too.  Ive since been informed that this isnt the case and we are unlikely to ever see such a feature.  If it could have worked then there would have been opportunities to diversify by making enemies resistant or vulnerable to different positional attacks across the board.

 

As the game is now,  its very difficult to make a specific AT feel they are making a special contribution without making the content virtually impossible when they are absent.

  

[Black Zot]

3 hours ago, Mezicus said:

Lady Grey task force has a mechanic imbedded into an enemy where you have to stack holds to make them vulnerable.  I thought that was a really great way of including AT's that are way less desirable on most TF's.  If there were more enemies in top end content, like 4 star TF's, then there would be more reason to include them.

 

If you wanted to include pet classes, you could have a mechanic in a hallway that requires a number of team members to sacrifice themselves to open a doorway to the next area.  That would make it usable by all AT's but prevent you from getting no deaths.

 

If you wanted to make stalkers important you could include a room that was filled with traps, that have improved detection so you have to do better than just stealth), for anyone that got seen.  Again, this wouldn't make the content unpassable or unplayable, but you would have to overwork your support team to get through it.

 

 

This sort of thing has already been discussed to death in the past.  There is simply no way to implement any of these without creating a "bring this or get stonewalled" situation that nobody wants to deal with.

 

The number one selling point of this game has always been the ability to bring whatever and roll.  Tossing that aside to "encourage" (read: FORCE) certain team comps is a good way to guarantee your new mission/TF/whathaveyou collects dust.  You brought up LGTF - almost nobody plays it, even when it's the weekly.  Barracuda is another one with AT-based gimmicks - again nobody touches it.

 

It's past time to put down the square peg instead of continuing to try and force it into the round hole.

[Rudra]

2 hours ago, Black Zot said:

 

This sort of thing has already been discussed to death in the past.  There is simply no way to implement any of these without creating a "bring this or get stonewalled" situation that nobody wants to deal with.

 

The number one selling point of this game has always been the ability to bring whatever and roll.  Tossing that aside to "encourage" (read: FORCE) certain team comps is a good way to guarantee your new mission/TF/whathaveyou collects dust.  You brought up LGTF - almost nobody plays it, even when it's the weekly.  Barracuda is another one with AT-based gimmicks - again nobody touches it.

 

It's past time to put down the square peg instead of continuing to try and force it into the round hole.

Barracuda's gimmicks used to be necessary to win. The devs changed that, back on Live I think, so that you no longer needed one of every type of AT to deal with the Reischmann at the end. You can just stomp him into the ground. (If the Barracuda SF is the SF I am thinking of....)

Edited May 24, 2023 by Rudra
Edited to correct "stop" to "stomp".

[Zect]

Stalkers are actually pretty good on 4* TF. ST dps is much more important on 4* and you are nearly guaranteed a tank with an aggro aura to keep things in place.

 

Control, however, I do agree - hold specific mechanics need to be increased in number and prominence to encourage a diverse team comp.

[UltraAlt]

10 hours ago, Clave Dark 5 said:

Side note: you are out of the loop on stalkers.  I have tanked, and I have drawn MSR Rikti into the bowl with stalkers, for example. 

 

I don't think so.

If a Stalker gets damage they come out of "hidden" status as far as I know.

I don't think it had been that long since I played a stalker.

 

Of course, your indicating you are playing a tank and not a stalker.

 

10 hours ago, Clave Dark 5 said:

To be simple, they're Scrappers now with some special effects. 

 

When Stalkers are playing as scrappers, then they aren't worrying about "hidden" status.

I'm concerned with the "hidden" status when I'm a stalker.

 

So, yeah, it appears that the stalkers that have run with you don't care if they are in "hidden" status or not.

 

I guess the real question is - if you had a choice of having a scrapper or a stalker on your team when you are tanking, which would you pick?

 

 

[UltraAlt]

10 hours ago, Mezicus said:

I thought that was a really great way of including AT's that are way less desirable on most TF's.

 

Please list (possibly again) these undesirable ATs.

 

10 hours ago, Mezicus said:

If you wanted to include pet classes, you could have a mechanic in a hallway that requires a number of team members to sacrifice themselves to open a doorway to the next area.  That would make it usable by all AT's but prevent you from getting no deaths.

 

You want to add a mechanic to a game where X number team members have to die before a door opens, but you think somehow pets/minions would count toward this sometimes-human sacrifice?

Is this for villain side content?

 

10 hours ago, Mezicus said:

Crowd control has lost most of it's appeal

 

I'm sorry that you don't enjoy crowd control any longer.

 

10 hours ago, Mezicus said:

debuff ability or huge damage and a large hit pool

 

both exist in the game already

 

10 hours ago, Mezicus said:

public brainstorming about ways to make content more inclusive and appealing for all AT's.

 

As others and myself have indicates, almost all of the game content (versus endgame) are playable by all ATs.

Some people have preferences for how their teams are built, but, over the years, most of us know what almost all content can be done by a team built of any single AT or any mix of ATs.

That isn't to say there aren't times that due to team's character's power selection, enhancement selection, or characters actual level related to adjusted level of content will cause inability to complete content. Players's skill level with each character on the team makes a difference as well.

 

But, you didn't bother to reply to my post, so I have no idea where you are coming from level or content-wise other than the content you mention.

 

10 hours ago, Mezicus said:

i think it would be much easier to include these idea types on future content so that everyone can be included on the fun.

 

I'm confused.

Are you looking for specialized content for those ATs you feel are left out?

Are you looking for content that is for everyone, but don't understand that most of the content is already playable by virtually any mix of characters on level for that content?

 

10 hours ago, Mezicus said:

Please feel free to add more ideas about ways to make other powersets or AT's that are less commonly used or recruited, more appealing to players and team leaders.

 

That's your job.

You know what you are looking for. Tell us what that is instead of making us guess.

[UltraAlt]

4 hours ago, Zect said:

4* TF

 

What does this terminology mean?

[biostem]

5 minutes ago, UltraAlt said:

What does this terminology mean?

A higher difficulty version of some task forces.

 

More details can be found here.

Edited May 25, 2023 by biostem

[SupaFreak]

1 minute ago, biostem said:

A higher difficulty version of some task forces.

I'm taking it 4* means 4-Star... such as Dr. Aeon and Imperious.