Making the "Weave" power more accessible

[Rudra]

6 minutes ago, Captain Fabulous said:

Exactly this. If a power has little to no merit of its own it shouldn't be a power people are forced to take in order to get a power they do want. There are so many good T3-T5 pool powers that most people never get to take because allocating multiple slots for useless or substandard prerequisites simply isn't viable for most builds. This is a prime example of Jack's twisted sense of "balance" that only detracts from the enjoyment of the game, not enhance it (right up there with his believing dying a lot is fun). Had the prerequisites never existed no one in their right mind would be advocating for them now -- we would all be enjoying greater build diversity and not being saddled with useless powers we don't want and will never use. If the best answer one can provide as to why the prerequisite should be there is "because I think it should be", sorry, that's not a good enough reason.

Flip side to that argument: If the best answer as to why something that already exists should be changed is "because I think it should be", that is also not a good enough reason.

 

(Edit: Especially since the main argument against isn't "I think it should be" but is about the power creep that even those advocating for the change admits it incurs.)

Edited June 25, 2023 by Rudra

[Biff Pow]

The Fighting Pool is like a mini Melee Primary and Secondary. If you take it on a Melee AT that already has a bunch of Melee attacks and defenses, it's going to feel redundant. This is a build choice, not a game problem.

[Captain Fabulous]

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

Flip side to that argument: If the best answer as to why something that already exists should be changed is "because I think it should be", that is also not a good enough reason.

 

(Edit: Especially since the main argument against isn't "I think it should be" but is about the power creep that even those advocating for the change admits it incurs.)

Ah yes, the old "I know you are but what am I" level of discourse. The reasons why the perquisites should be removed have been clearly explained and go way beyond "because I think so". As for you old rallying cry of "but but but POWER CREEP" it has been proven over and over again that it's simply not a thing. You really need to find new material. The power gap between baseline and theoretical max is so vast that giving people 1 or 2 extra powers isn't even going to move the needle in any quantifiable way.

Please just stop. We are all so sick to death of you and your same old tired 1st grade nonsense.

[Indystruck]

Nah, no reason to do that change. You can build to give boxing or kick an... okay spot in a rotation, easier on some builds than others, but that's the nature of all power picks, innit.

[A.I.D.A.]

power creep.

/jranger

[JasperStone]

In the early days of live I remember Jack E. saying somewhere that our power sections come with choices. 

Sometimes hard choices.

so I say NO.

 

I do take Punch or Kick depending on AT and use it. with Brawl even.

 

You have asked for this, but at what cost?

 

Ok I say yes to this:

 

Weave becomes a T1 pool power. It loses 2/3s it defense and Immob

Synergy with taking Tough gives 1/3 def back and Immob

 

Punch and Kick are moved to T3.

Boost them from Moderate to Superior Damage

Boost Synergy with Brawl, Punch, and Kick by 5%

Boost CrossPunch by 5% and debuffs by 5%. Increase cone range.

 

 

[SwitchFade]

15 hours ago, honoroit said:

 

 

from someone who's been jumped by thugs on the street, attacked by being hit to the ground from the back of the head, and beaten, for lols?, I can tell you from lived experience - fighting does not always involve knowing how to kick or punch.  unfortunately I am neither tough, nor can I weave.

 

PS - i will never go back to seattle, saw crime there you wouldn't believe, children in 'youth' uniforms, prostitutes in chains (i shit you not) at midday, hard drug use rampant, visible, violence.  a cess pit, mismanaged clearly, and policemen with tattoo'd swasticas on their arms.  military surplus or otherwise obtained non-civilian grade vehicles being paraded about. people buying SWAT vehicles that were somehow for sale.  a man on a bus saluting the nth reich, and me glancing annoyed, only to be whispered to to keep my eyes down.  I will never go back to seattle.

 

a VERY long way from the nation's capital, is one way to put it.

Completely irrelevant to the topic. Please don't derail the thread.

[Luminara]

I dislike "useless" powers in a build as much as anyone.  Nothing sets my hair on end like having to look at those shit T1/T2 powers that I can never get rid of once I've passed the baby levels.  But I also recognize that this game is based on tiered progression.  You can't unlock your T3 primary until you've selected one of the first two powers.  You can't jump into a pool and grab the level 14 or 20 power until you've arrived at level 14 or 20.  That's not just for balance, it's also a core representation of the game's idea that you start out with limited abilities and grow, develop, improve.  This is fundamental to what Co* is and how it was intended to be played, and restrictions like prerequisites on higher tier pool powers are representative of that in the same way primary/secondary/*PP prerequisites are.

Restrictions are also there to inspire us, to push us to find ways to excel, create solutions to problems, devise workarounds for obstacles.  We're encouraged to find ways around limitations.  We're given a wide array of tools to accomplish that goal.  This is another fundamental design aspect of Co* that sets is apart from other games, the freedom we're granted in exploring the limitations and seeking out ways to bypass them.  We're not locked into a singular build pattern.  Some players impose that limitation on themselves, but the game doesn't.  No pool power is mandatory.  No content requires any pool power in order to complete it.  Anyone who believes they "have to" take any pool power is playing within self-defined boundaries, like marking out a square on the floor with tape and insisting that space-time needs to be changed because you're "trapped" in that square.  You created those constraints.  Not Cryptic, not Paragon, not HC.  You.  Expecting the game to change to "free" you from your self-imposed prison is unwarranted.

 

But let's be honest here.  Even if the HC team did throw away the tiered progression system, where would that really get us?  We'd still have "useless" powers cluttering our builds.  Oh, sure, they'd be powers we could cram a proc into, but in a game which spoon-feeds its players dozens of powers, the reality is that most of those extra powers would be just as unused, ignored, disregarded as they are now.  And the very people insisting that this would open up build diversity would be running the same builds they are now, with different unused powers, and scrambling to explain how that qualifies as "diversity", while simultaneously complaining about "having" to take those powers because they don't have more slots to devote to them.  Same song, different refrain.

 

Here's a counter-proposal: pull the tape off of the floor and take a step in any direction.  Try other pool powers.  Explore IO builds.  Experiment.  Push the boundaries in different ways.  If every build you make "has to have" specific pools powers, you're the one building the walls, not the game, and nothing the HC team does, no way the game is changed, can ever remove those walls.  It's up to you.

[honoroit]

2 hours ago, SwitchFade said:

Completely irrelevant to the topic. Please don't derail the thread.

 

fighting doesnt necessarily involve (the attacked, in this case) knowing kick/punch.

 

Edited June 25, 2023 by honoroit

[Chance Jackson]

On 6/25/2023 at 12:13 AM, Rudra said:

Flip side to that argument: If the best answer as to why something that already exists should be changed is "because I think it should be", that is also not a good enough reason.

 

(Edit: Especially since the main argument against isn't "I think it should be" but is about the power creep that even those advocating for the change admits it incurs.)

Did you have a blaster when the game launched? Any with a nuke used to be able to rival Megumin's favorite spell. Tankers could herd entire maps & bring them to a blaster to annihilate in one damage capped nuke not a spawn or 2, the entire map (I don't recall if bosses survived that nuke at damage cap but that it's a question is a testament to the power that was lost).

Power creep is not a real thing in a game that didn't have Various specific IO nerfs, 90% cap PPM nerf, Slotted Recharge PPM Nerf, HO nerf, AoE caps nerf, Global Defense Nerf, Enhance Diversification nerf or any number of other nerfs when the things they nerfed were first introduced & "power creep" is certainly irrelevant in a discussion of a legitimate QoL change that isn't clawing back 1/100th of what was lost in a single one of the nerfs i mentioned.

[SeraphimKensai]

I'm personally in the boat that removing the punch/kick power cost would cause a slight degree of power creep. I'm also in the boat that I enjoy build diversity. I'm also a min maxer so most my characters end up with kick/tough/weave and occasionally cross punch.

 

I personally don't really use kick aside of low level stuff. That said there's one power in particular in a pool that I really like but usually can't justify fitting it in and that's provoke.

 

I know nobody asked me but...

If I could have carte blanche here I'd probably combine punch/kick as one power and let people pick the animation like you can with foot stomp while keeping the chance for a stun/knock back so you can keep existing slotting. I'd then move provoke to the fighting pool as most fights typically involve people taunting each other anyways as the second power. I'd leave tough/weave where they are at. Lastly I'd make a new single target confuse power for the presence pool with a short duration as the pool talks about charming people as that would allow more build diversity.

 

This way I could sneak provoke in while still needing a 3 power investment to get weave, and then it creates a whole new build dynamic about having a confuse power for any toon that wants to experiment (naturally existing confuse powers would be stronger than the pool variant).

 

 

 

[Rudra]

2 hours ago, Chance Jackson said:

Did you have a blaster when the game launched? Any with a nuke used to be able to rival Megumin's favorite spell. Tankers could herd entire maps & bring them to a blaster to annihilate in one damage capped nuke not a spawn or 2, the entire map (I don't recall if bosses survived that nuke at damage cap but that it's a question is a testament to the power that was lost).

Power creep is not a real thing in a game that didn't have Various specific IO nerfs, 90% cap PPM nerf, Slotted Recharge PPM Nerf, HO nerf, AoE caps nerf, Global Defense Nerf, Enhance Diversification nerf or any number of other nerfs when the things they nerfed were first introduced & "power creep" is certainly irrelevant in a discussion of a legitimate QoL change that isn't clawing back 1/100th of what was lost in a single one of the nerfs i mentioned.

Did I have a Blaster when they game launched? Yes. I also had a Scrapper and a Defender. Yes, I remember Tankers running around herding things, and they would still be doing so today except that isn't the meta any more. The meta shifted from herding and controlling to just steamrolling as you go. Tankers can still run around herding things, and on some groups that don't focus on the current meta, they still do. Blasters still nuke. And in fact, since nukes are all crashless now, Blasters playing in the current meta nuke everything whether there is a large group or a moderate size group just to clear them out and move on. So because of the power creep in the game, in this case power level availability and nukes becoming crashless, Blasters now nuke everything 6 levels earlier than before and do so against everything regardless of whether an actual need exists for it or not. So not only do the things you say used to happen still happen, but they are done so now far more frequently. That's called power creep.

[megaericzero]

2 hours ago, Chance Jackson said:

Did you have a blaster when the game launched? Any with a nuke used to be able to rival Megumin's favorite spell. Tankers could herd entire maps & bring them to a blaster to annihilate in one damage capped nuke not a spawn or 2, the entire map (I don't recall if bosses survived that nuke at damage cap but that it's a question is a testament to the power that was lost).

Power creep is not a real thing in a game that didn't have Various specific IO nerfs, 90% cap PPM nerf, Slotted Recharge PPM Nerf, HO nerf, AoE caps nerf, Global Defense Nerf, Enhance Diversification nerf or any number of other nerfs when the things they nerfed were first introduced & "power creep" is certainly irrelevant in a discussion of a legitimate QoL change that isn't clawing back 1/100th of what was lost in a single one of the nerfs i mentioned.

 

The most drastic of those nerfs happen because people achieve a level of power or efficiency that shouldn't be possible. There's no way you can say anyone - dev or player - should want the game to be herding an entire zone into a trashcan for ten minutes and then eliminate all mobs in two seconds by clicking one attack power. It makes for fun narrative in Konosuba but turns COH into an idle game.

 

As for power creep, buffs and nerfs are an attempt to reach an equilibrium. Where that point lies is subjective, though. Increasing performance, however minor, does shift where we're at. The people who bring up power creep figure we're at the equilibrium point, the same as those requesting this change to Weave because they figure we're not there yet.

 

23 hours ago, honoroit said:

fighting doesnt necessarily involve (the attacked, in this case) knowing kick/punch.

 

 

I get where you're coming from, thematically. I took a self-defense class in early college and, yeah, we learned breathing, stance, and dodging before punching; before learning to throw, we had to learn how to properly get thrown. In the case of Weave, that's where the thematics break down and gameplay is taking precedence over theme.

 

You're an archetype (and this is just a repeat point) that specializes in ranged damage, lockdown, or has pets - your vulnerability to damage is your weakness. It's even offset by the fact that you're attacking from a distance; there are already some moves you aren't even in danger from. Heck, some mobs only have a ranged attack as a formality. If you want to shore-up that weakness, it does need to come at a cost. In this case, the price is multiple power picks (plus slot investment). You can take Hover, CJ, Maneuvers, and Weave; each pick reduces your remaining pool options and how many other powers you can take.

 

Weave costs more in picks because it provides more defense. Especially if people are going to dismiss CJ and Hover together as redundant because that shows movement is not of value to you, further proving Weave's defense values are significant. If people want to argue that Maneuvers provides its defense bonus to a whole party, that's not a benefit you can reap on your own and being on a team means you have even less to worry about defense because there's already more bodies and potentially buffs going around; at that point it's more just building an argument that Maneuvers should switch places with Tactics because it has so much potential value as a power pick.

 

--

 

EDIT:

The game provides you with 24 power picks. That's enough to take your entire primary, secondary, ancillary, and one travel power. If none of those powers are skippable yet survivability is an issue, you should be mad at your power set(s) for not providing the tools to do your job. If there are skippable powers, then it's a non-issue because you have the room. Anything beyond that is just build issues, which other players can help with.

Edited June 26, 2023 by megaericzero
added a section

[Chance Jackson]

1 minute ago, Rudra said:

Did I have a Blaster when they game launched? Yes. I also had a Scrapper and a Defender. Yes, I remember Tankers running around herding things, and they would still be doing so today except that isn't the meta any more. The meta shifted from herding and controlling to just steamrolling as you go. Tankers can still run around herding things, and on some groups that don't focus on the current meta, they still do. Blasters still nuke. And in fact, since nukes are all crashless now, Blasters playing in the current meta nuke everything whether there is a large group or a moderate size group just to clear them out and move on. So because of the power creep in the game, in this case power level availability and nukes becoming crashless, Blasters now nuke everything 6 levels earlier than before and do so against everything regardless of whether an actual need exists for it or not. So not only do the things you say used to happen still happen, but they are done so now far more frequently. That's called power creep.

That is a joke right? A (potentially?) weaker nuke every other mob that at most kills LTs & lower is not "power creep" compared a to a single nuke that had no target cap that could kill pretty much the entire map in one shot, if a tanker who also had no agro cap could herd them all for the blaster

 

It ain't about the meta, target caps killed herding the whole map & damage cap nuking the entire heard

[Rudra]

22 minutes ago, Chance Jackson said:

That is a joke right? A (potentially?) weaker nuke every other mob that at most kills LTs & lower is not "power creep" compared a to a single nuke that had no target cap that could kill pretty much the entire map in one shot, if a tanker who also had no agro cap could herd them all for the blaster

 

It ain't about the meta, target caps killed herding the whole map & damage cap nuking the entire heard

To the best of my knowledge, the nukes were not made any weaker. (Edit: Even before any of the nerfs you list were implemented, I never saw anyone able to nuke a boss and kill it unless there were multiple Blasters doing so more or less simultaneously or the boss was near dead anyway.) They had their target caps reduced. Tankers can't herd entire maps any more, and as someone who remembers when Tankers did herd entire maps and the rest of the team couldn't kill them fast enough, winding up with the team except for the Tanker dying and the team being rather upset with the tanker who would routinely still be out grabbing even more aggro, I'm very happy the target caps were implemented. Tankers don't herd entire maps any more. (Thank goodness.) They do still herd entire rooms. Hells, I've watched a friend playing a Scrapper run around herding the room for us. So the point still stands. The herding you say used to happen but doesn't any more, still happens. Just not at the excessive level it used to.

 

And that doesn't change the fact that Blaster nukes went from something you used when you were being overwhelmed or when there was a large force around your team to instead being used as freely as that Blaster's T1/2 attacks. Actually, more frequently than in the case of several players I know. Because nukes don't have a cost to their use any more. (Power creep). Nukes can be gained and used 6 levels earlier than before. (Power creep.) Which means the incentive to keep them in reserve until actually needed or you have the support available to deal with the consequences of their use is gone. (Power creep.)

Edited June 26, 2023 by Rudra

[lemming]

6 hours ago, Rudra said:

To the best of my knowledge, the nukes were not made any weaker. (Edit: Even before any of the nerfs you list were implemented, I never saw anyone able to nuke a boss and kill it unless there were multiple Blasters doing so more or less simultaneously or the boss was near dead anyway.)

Maybe without ED & a Fucrum, or a bunch of reds.  It was definitely less balanced back then.  It was also boring as hell once you did it once or twice

Plus the game had more bugs. 

[Galaxy Brain]

@Rudra, nukes definitely got smacked down in power level when their crashes were removed. Prior to that, they had IIRC higher base damage, but also multiple bonus chances to do even *more* damage. If I recall, inferno could do like triple what it does now with a lucky roll.

 

Way, way back in the day you could form dumpster teams where tanks would herd entire maps to one spot (usually a dumpster) and then folks would pile on Burn or just nuke all at once. Rapid fire nukes of today are incredible but they do not come close to that goofiness 😀

 

 

As for the topic at hand, its a mixed bag. IMO, the root issue is deeper where certain stats and pool powers flat out overshadow others even when theyre used as intended. Combine that with limited picks and it will funnel you to only certain choices naturally as you learn how the game works.

 

[Rudra]

15 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Prior to that, they had IIRC higher base damage, but also multiple bonus chances to do even *more* damage. If I recall, inferno could do like triple what it does now with a lucky roll.

I don't think the base damage ever got touched. I would need to see a patch note that states they were dropped. As for the multiple bonus chances like with Inferno, the individual tics used to check to see if they applied. Now, they get applied with 100% chance as long as the target was hit. So that would mean the damage was max'ed out, not reduced.

 

(Edit: Though I think the total number of tics was reduced when they were made 100% chance to trigger, the lost tics were not equal to the number of tics that would routinely fail to trigger prior. For a net overall damage gain. If I remember correctly.)

Edited June 28, 2023 by Rudra

[Galaxy Brain]

5 minutes ago, Rudra said:

I don't think the base damage ever got touched. I would need to see a patch note that states they were dropped. As for the multiple bonus chances like with Inferno, the individual tics used to check to see if they applied. Now, they get applied with 100% chance as long as the target was hit. So that would mean the damage was max'ed out, not reduced.

 

(Edit: Though I think the total number of tics was reduced when they were made 100% chance to trigger, the lost tics were not equal to the number of tics that would routinely fail to trigger prior. For a net overall damage gain. If I remember correctly.)

 

Found it:

 

https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Issue_24

 

All nukes, not just inferno, would have multiple bonus damage rolls thay could lead to much higher damage. When they got updated, the bonus procs were removed and the new damage values were made to be "about average" based on the odds / damage per roll.

[Rudra]

2 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

 

Found it:

 

https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Issue_24

 

All nukes, not just inferno, would have multiple bonus damage rolls thay could lead to much higher damage. When they got updated, the bonus procs were removed and the new damage values were made to be "about average" based on the odds / damage per roll.

I sit corrected. Thanks.

[wjrasmussen]

24 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

@Rudra, nukes definitely got smacked down in power level when their crashes were removed. Prior to that, they had IIRC higher base damage, but also multiple bonus chances to do even *more* damage. If I recall, inferno could do like triple what it does now with a lucky roll.

 

Way, way back in the day you could form dumpster teams where tanks would herd entire maps to one spot (usually a dumpster) and then folks would pile on Burn or just nuke all at once. Rapid fire nukes of today are incredible but they do not come close to that goofiness 😀

 

 

As for the topic at hand, its a mixed bag. IMO, the root issue is deeper where certain stats and pool powers flat out overshadow others even when theyre used as intended. Combine that with limited picks and it will funnel you to only certain choices naturally as you learn how the game works.

 

We don't want to go back to those days.  boring......

[honoroit]

theres only so many people you can blow up with a grenade, before theres no shrapnel or shock wave left to go around.

 

so target caps are good.

[Forsetti]

Mmm

 

    This is a good suggestion, but it is important to see the various point of views related to this posting.

 

     Both tough and weave are of little consequence to a melee type, so changing the order or access sequence has no impact on them.

 

      But from a support class, tough and weave, specially weave has every bit of importance I can imagine, since protections for support types are rare to get.

 

      From a support type, there is a relative safety in range, despite all mobs have ranged attacks and they spam ranged status effects to which support has no protections from, leaving defense as their only protection against all attacks when playing at levels below 45 content, and have unlocked their incarnate powers; but before then defense is all they got. If you look at how support are build, the only defense abilities they get are basically incidental, which has a massive impact in their ability to survive or lack off. It is an interesting argument, is there game power creep when it addresses a fundamental game class handicap? I suppose it is all relative, being less totally vulnerable could in an absolute view be consider power creep while in a pragmatic view it is not.

 

      I believe the intent of the auxiliary pool is to allow the player to round their character, and try to compensate for class shortfalls, which may be in their minds or very real. In  past  updates, there were significant changes made to the auxiliary pools, for instance, the flight and speed travel pools. Where in the past, for example you had to acquire hover before you could fly, now you can buy fly directly, same with haste and super speed. Thus, if you take the rationale of the purpose of auxiliary powers, and using as historical fact, what had been done in flight and speed, it would stand to reason the same philosophy could be applies to the other auxiliary pool powers.

 

      Thus ultimately, a player could pick and choose any power in an auxiliary pool to achieve the capability rounding. For my support types, I would dispense with box/kick since I already have brawl available from the beginning, it is capable of being slotted and enhanced, and I can buy more melee attacks if needed from the Pv2 vendor.

 

       Sue

[biostem]

12 minutes ago, Forsetti said:

Thus, if you take the rationale of the purpose of auxiliary powers, and using as historical fact, what had been done in flight and speed, it would stand to reason the same philosophy could be applies to the other auxiliary pool powers.

No, because the changes were *specifically* made for travel power pools.

 

15 minutes ago, Forsetti said:

From a support type, there is a relative safety in range, despite all mobs have ranged attacks and they spam ranged status effects to which support has no protections from, leaving defense as their only protection against all attacks when playing at levels below 45 content, and have unlocked their incarnate powers; but before then defense is all they got. If you look at how support are build, the only defense abilities they get are basically incidental, which has a massive impact in their ability to survive or lack off. It is an interesting argument, is there game power creep when it addresses a fundamental game class handicap? I suppose it is all relative, being less totally vulnerable could in an absolute view be consider power creep while in a pragmatic view it is not.

Has it ever occurred to you that those support types aren't supposed to have such easy access to status protection or defense?  It's by design.  What you call a "class handicap" I call "balance".  If you want all that defense, you're going to have to work for it, just as a melee AT will never get the kinds of controls, buffs, debuffs, pets, or ranged damaged like other ATs have...

[Herotu]

I have to agree with the OP.

 

Why bother with the "take 2 extraneous powers" thing?

What's the point in it?

What does it do for you?

How does it make the game better?

 

It could just say, "this power costs 3 points" instead. Now, I'm not suggesting that be a thing, but it's effectively what the OP is stating. 

I don't want to save two points, I hardly ever get a character to 50, but I do think it's ... it's a throwback to a different time. A time before the fitness pool became inherent - that was the crossing of the Rubicon. It meant the game was significantly easier - a conscious choice by the developers: 4 free points.

 

Do I want that to be exaccerbated? I don't think so. Perhaps they could remove a point from the two of the times you get 3 per level, but for that we get to choose whatever pool power with no pre-requirements? I haven't looked at the implications of that, it's just an idea.