Officially Unofficial Weekly Discussion #34: Spiders and Psychics (VEAT discussion)

[SeraphimKensai]

Welcome back to another weekly discussion. Working on trying to get back on track towards mid-week, but giving each post a reasonable window. This time we look into Archanos' VEATs and how they fit into CoV. 

 

What are your thoughts about VEATs? How do they play in your experience? How's their lore from your perspective? How do you like their story arcs? What new story elements would you like to see implemented for Soldiers of Arachnos and Widows? Would you like to see any changes to how the ATs play?

 

Do you make use of build select macros to use of multiple builds at the drop of a hat or split say a bane and a crab up via multiple toons?

 

How do Night Widows play for you? Blood widows? Forts?  Wolf Spiders? Hane Crabs?

 

Are these ATs useful in your perspective at all levels of play or are they overshadowed and outclassed?

 

Lastly Team SoA or Team Widow?

 

As always thanks.

[lemming]

It's another set of ATs I've tried to like, but haven't done as much with.

With some of the redraw changes I think Soldiers get, I might have to try again.  I always preferred Widows over Soldiers though.

 

That's not to say they aren't strong ATs and make great teammates.

[Snarky]

I have tried Crab Spiders numerous times on live and once here.  In my opinion, Crabs suffer the same "niche" issues Sentinels have.  While not exact, they appear to be penalized damage dealers for having armor and penalized as defensive sets for having ranged attacks.  They just suffer all around the wheel.  

 

I did have a Crab on HC and 50d them.  Then the crab arm backpack started showing up when I rolled new alts.  No way to get rid of.  then it started showing up on OLD toons.  Just appeared.  I deleted the toon and have had no issues since.  No bughunter badge either.  Like a wet fart in a crowded elevator on a hot NY day.

[drbuzzard]

I'm quite a fan of both flavors of VEATs. They both work pretty well. I prefer the SoA because it's a bit less clicky. Both sides have lots of valid build options that do respectable damage and help out a team. I see it as rather clear that the dev team that made them learned from the mistakes of the HEATs. I suspect people don't understand their strengths very well since they are kinda rare. A superteam of all VEATs can be pretty devastating. 

 

I will echo Snarky here that I'm not an over fan of the crab arms being present even if you don't actually have any of the attacks. I use only rifle attacks, but there's the arms waving around anyway. I ended up using prismatic aether to pick a Malta gunslinger costume so I didn't have to see the useless arms. 

 

The redraw revisions are a hug help on SoAs in particular since it means that the patron pool powers no longer cause that redraw penalty in your chain. 

[DougGraves]

I have a couple of crabs for the AoE.  Ultimately I find that playstyle boring so I rarely play them.

 

Widows would fit my playstyle better, but they don't get their special powers until level 24 and I rarely play above that level so I haven't bothered.

[High_Beam]

Love my Widow.  I didn't at first until I realized I needed to decide on what I wanted her to be.  From there things got way more fun.  Now my spider, yeah I have kind of stopped leveling her because when I look at the numbers in Mids, even stacked with Set IOs, she sucks.  I don't want a crab or a Bane I want a Huntsman and in choosing to go that route I also chose to gimp myself.  Se la vie.  So she got shipped to Everlasting at level 38 and sits there earning Day Job credit and played when Excelsior is down.  I know people can make these cats te ubar but not I because I don't do purple, unless its a suede bolero jacket or frosted tips but not recipes.

[High_Beam]

1 hour ago, Snarky said:

Like a wet fart in a crowded elevator on a hot NY day.

I hate you for firing that mind worm out there and hitting me.

[Lazarillo]

Honestly, the biggest weakness of Widows is that I can't color my Fortunatas' powers.

But on the flip side, if I could color their powers, I'm not sure I'd even bother playing anything else.

[Greycat]

I don't mind the VEATs once finished... they fit a couple of concepts, and one of my mains is a Widow.

 

I *hate* the storyline. It may have changed somewhere on live, I don't know, but I played it through at launch and ... I hated it, hated the "yep, you're a sucker too!" and thrown-together feel of it. I play it through level 10 to get the costume and that's it, frankly.

 

Playing... The forced respec at 24 has *always* annoyed me. Yes, Khelds have to open up the forms they want, but they don't have to stop what they're doing and do a complete respec from level 1.  And then have to do it again if they do a second or third build. What's even *more* annoying is on soldiers at least I like to go "huntsman" instead of purely Bane or Crab. If they could completely do away with that, you pick which path you want at level 1 or 2, it'd be *much* better.

 

The other thing that kind of annoys me is the effect they had on the playerbase... "Oh, they can get their leadership *and* Leadership! They're a thousand times more useful than any other support or HEAT" - is not only annoying but rather selfish sounding to me. That's not how fun the AT is, it's just "buffbot." I don't think I've heard that in a bit, at least. It was just *one more thing* that annoyed me on them.

 

Generally... I know the lore. I ignore the story arcs. I play them when they fit a character - and they do fit some of mine well, one of them even being a sort of "main" o fmine. I don't mind how they play. They do their jobs and I don't feel like I'm missing anything. I'm sure someone will throw numbers out but... I don't care. *shrug*

[KaizenSoze]

Not surprising I have strong opinions.

 

To answer the question, Fortunatas above all others.

 

SoAs are in a good spot, except pets should have a recall button. That's it, would fix all my issues with SoA pets. Ok, crab melee isn't very good, so maybe a little help there.

 

*pulls out soapbox* Let's talk about Night Widows...

 

Yes, you can make them super tanky. So, tanky I complete an 801.3 at 4x8 in under the two hour limit. Fun to play, no, it's like playing a pre-buff tanker w/o any aggro control. 

 

I do wish the dev team would re-run the build statistics with breakouts for the different sub types. It has been my experience that Night Widows are very rare.

 

I mean why would you play a Night Widow over a Fort. Forts get a nuke and nice control powers. In my testing NWs does not out damage Forts in single target and have lackluster AOE. While also being saddled by one of the worst T9s in the game, Psychic Scream. Night Widows need some love.

 

Testing:
 

Spoiler

1st round:
Rules:
Ageless core only, no Assault, no Alpha
VEAT: Assault on
Testing showed that Night Widow follow up does better DPS than Night Widow Build Up. So, Night widow testing uses follow up for now on. And Placate, which is meh, but it's something that NW have over Forts.
AT attacks only, no Gloom for instance

Night Widow 7:11
Fort 7:20, proc'ed out Dominate
Fort, 6:40, non proc'ed Dominate

2nd round
Musculature Core, Assault core, slotted no used
VEAT: Assault on
AT attacks only, no Gloom for instance

Night Widow, 5:50, no proc'es
Fort, 4:17, proc'ed dominate
Fort, 5:14, non proc'ed dominate
Bane, 5:28, no proc's

The results are sad, but not unexpected. I always suspected that Night Widow single target DPS was not as good as players thought including me.

Night Widows have less single target DPS than Forts or Banes. While doing massively less AOE damage. They can be made very durable, but at the cost of even poorer DPS and only useful in extremely hard content.

I suggest giving them access to both Build Up and Follow Up like Fortunatas. And either increasing their T9 Psychic Scream damage by a lot or replacing it with something better.

 

[High_Beam]

2 hours ago, Lazarillo said:

Honestly, the biggest weakness of Widows is that I can't color my Fortunatas' powers.

This and honestly I would like a little claw/blade customization.

[KaizenSoze]

24 minutes ago, High_Beam said:

This and honestly I would like a little claw/blade customization.

There is some available with page five, except follow up. Which using the scrapper follow up, which cannot be customized!

[Clave Dark 5]

I had a crab back on Live that I never really leveled, and one Widow here.  I was following a build posted online for the Widow that was so strong I could stand in the middle of combat and Aid Self when I needed to, not often, and usually wouldn't get interrupted. 

 

It was so boring! 

 

Way too easy.  I keep thinking I may someday finish leveling that character, still sitting at 47 I think, but...  *shrug*

[kelika2]

talking about like 5 classes within two archetypes is confusing to even prep the confusion something thing.  so heres a go:

 

Wolves and Crabs:  Merge Area Web Grenade with Venom Grenade, bump up the damage by maybe 10-20%, rename it Spider Venom Grenade.  This is to make room for another power, a third single target ranged attack that has High/Heavy damage.  This will not only help with their single target damage pre-pets, but put them on par with Khelds

 

Banes and Widows, allow constant chances for mini-crits like Blaster's Shinobi has IF you have taken Mask/Cloak.  Higher chance for melee attacks, lower chance for ranged attacks.  My Widow is fanfuckingtastic without stealth in the damage department.  But my Bane sucks super hard due to long animation attacks, low base damage ranged attacks.  I say cut the cone blast and add in Whirling Mace.  Or add a higher damage mod for the Bane ranged attacks.  Hell even an animation/activation time trimming would do wonders.

 

Wolves and Spider pets, their attacks need to get reworked to be more ranged friendly and stay ranged.  Due to their recharge intensive pet nature it is impossible to have them perma and have room for the two pet defense IOs.  This can be somewhat managed if the Pets can take SoA ATOs.  a 5/6 set without the recharge/proc has plenty of Recharge in it to keep t1 and t2 perma and allow room to slot pet defense aura IOs.  This or cut down on T1 and T2 pet recharge times.  High accuracy or auto-hit fights really edge out wolves/spiders effectiveness

 

I dont play forts all that much, the ranged psi damage seems real low compared to crabs aoe, widows melee and so on

[blue4333]

male widows need to be able to have butt capes that is all.

 

oh and also, customizable claws for widows pls.

[UltraAlt]

20 hours ago, SeraphimKensai said:

What are your thoughts about VEATs?

 

I don't play them.

See you next week.

[KaizenSoze]

12 hours ago, kelika2 said:

Wolves and Crabs:  Merge Area Web Grenade with Venom Grenade, bump up the damage by maybe 10-20%, rename it Spider Venom Grenade.  This is to make room for another power, a third single target ranged attack that has High/Heavy damage.  This will not only help with their single target damage pre-pets, but put them on par with Khelds

 Alas, that would make venom nade seriously overpowered. It's already a keystone power of SoA.

 

12 hours ago, kelika2 said:

Banes and Widows, allow constant chances for mini-crits like Blaster's Shinobi has IF you have taken Mask/Cloak.  Higher chance for melee attacks, lower chance for ranged attacks.  My Widow is fanfuckingtastic without stealth in the damage department.  But my Bane sucks super hard due to long animation attacks, low base damage ranged attacks.  I say cut the cone blast and add in Whirling Mace.  Or add a higher damage mod for the Bane ranged attacks.  Hell even an animation/activation time trimming would do wonders.

 I agree that Bane range attacks suck, except Poisonous Ray, which is ok. Why do all Bane ranged attacks have a minimal cast time of 2 second? Regardless of damage, single target, or AOE. I know why actually, it's because they are copies of mob attacks and never reviewed. 😞

 

Shinobi like crits is a nice idea, I would just be happy with full crits in the current system. That would close the damage gap a bit between Forts, NWs, and Banes. Bane single target damage isn't as bad as you think in my testing. See early comment. Banes at least provide a decent amount of -res to a team, unlike NWs who primary benefit is defense, which is nullified at 50+. See my comments on Time defenders in the defender forum. Same issue different AT.

 

12 hours ago, kelika2 said:

I dont play forts all that much, the ranged psi damage seems real low compared to crabs aoe, widows melee and so on

 Forts are the strongest damage dealer of VEATs, except a well run crabbmind. They can exceed NWs and Banes single target damage with some builds. Their AOE is much better than NWs and they have controls which are very useful even on hardmodes if you lean into them. They are a scrapper/controller with a nuke. They are just not as durable. Forts are in a good place now, maybe  a bit more ranged Psi damage, but not at the cost of anything other power. IMO.

[High_Beam]

13 hours ago, KaizenSoze said:

There is some available with page five, except follow up. Which using the scrapper follow up, which cannot be customized!

Yeah.  I should have been more clear.  than what is already there 🙂

[Techwright]

I have one crab, and I stopped with him at about 25.  It's been some time back, but I remember feeling he was under-performing and that might need to rethink him as a huntsman.

 

Honestly, for both those and Widows, one big turn off for me was the lack of costume customization right out of the gate.  For having been the "elite" archetypes back in the day, there sure wasn't much to show individuality.  I realize this works well if you're playing a grunt in Arachnos, but it's terrible if you're playing a break-away character asserting their individuality.  At least the Wolf version had some limited head customization.  No costume contests for the Widows!

 

I don't know what would be involved, but I'd like to see more customization for their costumes.  For huntsmen, for example, would it be possible to have a trenchcoat over the armor instead of the cape?  Maybe limit costuming swap outs to X-number of component swaps so that the archetypes will always have something that shows they're origin, but leaving enough changes to create more individuality.

[KaizenSoze]

1 hour ago, Techwright said:

I don't know what would be involved, but I'd like to see more customization for their costumes.  For huntsmen, for example, would it be possible to have a trenchcoat over the armor instead of the cape?  Maybe limit costuming swap outs to X-number of component swaps so that the archetypes will always have something that shows they're origin, but leaving enough changes to create more individuality.

  You can create a whole new costume in your second costume slot. No restrictions. But epic pieces are not allowed.

 

  More customization in the epic slot or those epic pieces being allowed in non-epic slot is suggested often.

[ranagrande]

VEATs need some dev attention.  They seem to get left behind by changes here.

 

Soldiers and Widows are the only ATs that still only have access to one secondary power at character creation.

 

Bane Spider Cloaking Device is inferior to the Concealment pool's Stealth.

[Sakura Tenshi]

In some ways I feel like VEATS are overtuned, especially compared to HEATs who suffer a lot for their ability to have armor and ranged attacks, but I do see why some people feel otherwise, I mean Fortunata, while they do have a pretty spammy and strong nuke, also have a kind of limited amount of AoE damage period, and ironically all their single target attacks to my recollection lack a bit of burst damage, plus, the Inherent really sucks and honestly seems like it was tacked on purely because the live devs were like "oh, yeah, they need an inherent, uhhh... let's give them a crappier version of Fitness!" Anyway, here's a few of my own rough suggestions within my kind of narrow experience band of playing VEATS (I've only really played Fort and 'Huntsman')

 

1. New inherent - Survival of the Fittest: Arachnos’ Darwinist teachings instill nearly sadistic  sense in its best soldiers. Anytime you defeat an enemy you will be healed for a small amount of HP depending on the strength of your Target and recover an amount of endurance. (2.5%hp/5%end-minion, 5%hp/10%end-Lieutent/boss, 20%hp/100%endurance for EBs and stronger)
2. Additional powers for Arachnos Soldier - Sniper Rifle at level 22 and Full Auto at level 26* *Yes, I get this basically invalidates Assault Rifle as a powerset but dammit, I hate the Frankengun!
3. Giving VEATS (and HEATS) access to APPs, figure sharing with Sentinels seems like it might work with some power selection tweaks.

[drbuzzard]

20 hours ago, Sakura Tenshi said:

 

1. Giving VEATS (and HEATS) access to APPs, figure sharing with Sentinels seems like it might work with some power selection tweaks.

 

Funny I was thinking I needed to come in here and mention this since I had forgotten to earlier. I dislike that they only get PPPs. Perhaps there's a thematic reason for this, it doesn't mean I think it necessary. 

[WindDemon21]

On 6/30/2023 at 12:59 PM, SeraphimKensai said:

Welcome back to another weekly discussion. Working on trying to get back on track towards mid-week, but giving each post a reasonable window. This time we look into Archanos' VEATs and how they fit into CoV. 

 

What are your thoughts about VEATs? How do they play in your experience? How's their lore from your perspective? How do you like their story arcs? What new story elements would you like to see implemented for Soldiers of Arachnos and Widows? Would you like to see any changes to how the ATs play?

 

Do you make use of build select macros to use of multiple builds at the drop of a hat or split say a bane and a crab up via multiple toons?

 

How do Night Widows play for you? Blood widows? Forts?  Wolf Spiders? Hane Crabs?

 

Are these ATs useful in your perspective at all levels of play or are they overshadowed and outclassed?

 

Lastly Team SoA or Team Widow?

 

As always thanks.

Can we like PLEEASSSSEEEE let us color the veat powers, Especially on fortunata psy powers. Mine NEEDS to have white for his theme, the purple just doesn't work, seriously why has this not been fixed yet?