honoroitisfantastic Would you pvp for prisms?

[macskull]

11 minutes ago, honoroit said:

i would love nothing more than for everybody to be (forced, as a server option) to enjoy pvp with further integration in the game, and indeed with existing opportunity that exists.

You've probably already seen how vehemently opposed players are to something like that based on responses in this thread. I think, for the most part, this game is very easy and casual and a game like that tends to attract the sort of person who isn't interested in the level of challenge PvP brings.

[Clave Dark 5]

On 7/30/2023 at 6:46 PM, honoroit said:

would you pvp... if prismatic aether things dropped when you killed people?

Let answer this question in gif form: 

[Owl Girl]

i think a better way to say what i was trying to say: the reason a lot of people don't like pvp isn't because the rewards aren't good enough. there is no drop you could add that would make people enjoy feeling like they are being 'pushed' to pvp. but there is a lot of social tools you could use without taking up dev time that actually would get more people to pvp. they're so obvious that i'm sure Nobody needs to see a list =P

[A Cat]

This is my two cents, but I used to pvp a bit on live back before the i13 changes. I think I stopped playing around when color customisation and dual blades was released.  For me, a lot of what is stopping me from trying it again, other than the very low number of participants (it was already too low back when I was playing live IMO) is that my tiny and smooth brain is too feeble to make me want to learn basically an entirely new system to build my characters. I know it had good benefits for balance and whatever, and I'm not saying we should go back. Frankly I don't even know enough about it to say how it impacted balance. But I'm just saying the reason for me personally. 

[srmalloy]

5 hours ago, honoroit said:

i would love nothing more than for everybody to be (forced, as a server option) to enjoy PvP...

I am reminded of Lloyd Biggle, Jr.'s "Cultural Survey" novels The Still, Small Voice of Trumpets and The World Menders (yes, I remember reading fifty-year old novels soon after their publication; I'm an old fart) ; they showcase agents of the Interplanetary Relations Bureau, who work to encourage the establishment of democratic governments on planets, with severe constraints on what they can do. The motto of the IPR is "Democracy imposed from without is the severest form of tyranny." CoH was released without any trace of PvP, and stayed that way until NCsoft directed that it be spatchcocked onto the game, where it became a barnacle-like excrescence that served as a drag on the game as more and more changes were made trying to address the problem that the character abilities that made the game enjoyable in a PvE context made PvP frustrating and boring to the player getting those same abilities used against them in a PvP context. And your solution to the paucity of PvP players is to  take players, who are currently free to engage in PvP any time they want, but are choosing not to, force them into PvP gameplay that has become significantly divorced from PvE gameplay, against players who have already taken the time to learn how those differences work, and have spent hundreds of millions, if not billions, in inf tweaking out their own characters, with the expectation that they'll consider this to be 'fun' and keep doing it? I want to find out what you're smoking and have a few ounces sent to my chambers; it sounds like the good stuff.

[Techwright]

To post my answer to the OP I'll need to address both parts:

 

1. Prismatic Aether - wrong carrot to dangle.  With sincere respect to the Homecoming team for their dedicated work, the current lineup of Prismatic Aether rewards, with the possible exception of the mini look, hold no interest for me whatsoever.  If in the future, new options are released for rewards, I will revisit this point.  I recommend rewards like unlocking coloring options for those current costume pieces with one color appearance only, chest emblem relocation/reduction (to left pocket, right pocket, on non-coat costumes, or upper arms), or 3-color costume pieces.  I will happily look into grinding P.A. for such, and possibly other things.

 

2. PvP - While I'm not opposed to PvP,  I am opposed to throwing casual players into a PvP zone with twinks (do they still use that word?), that is, players who have a lot of time on their hands to study and craft an elite-enhancements character to completely dominate a zone.  If some arrangement is made like WoW did back in the day to separate these two groups, I might reconsider.  (And I'd note I was a twink PvP player back then, reasonably good at it. and approved the change.  I'm not saying all this because I can't do that.) I've no idea of the plausibility of it in this game, but if arena PvP could be created where a player enters a "locker room" and is given the choice of 2 or 3 pre-designed enhancement layouts for his/her power sets, balanced as best as possible, the same ones as everyone else would have for those power sets, then you remove the twinking and can focus on the skill.  That would be of interest to me also.  I basically do this quarterly with my friends when playing Halo.  I...do not rock at Halo...there's a reason I chose the nom-de-guerre "Gandhi", but I'm at these events enjoying my time because it is purely skill, or lack of it, not any elite crafting involved.

 

I realize this may not be a popular take on the topic, but it's my take.

[High_Beam]

8 hours ago, Techwright said:

but if arena PvP could be created where a player enters a "locker room" and is given the choice of 2 or 3 pre-designed enhancement layouts for his/her power sets, balanced as best as possible, the same ones as everyone else would have for those power sets, then you remove the twinking and can focus on the skill.

That is a very interesting concept.

[The Chairman]

I would be interested to see where people are getting the idea that NCSoft was the driving force behind PvP being added to the game. The Arena was added in May 2005 (I4), and PvP zones were introduced with the launch of CoV (I6) in October 2005.

 

NCSoft announced their purchase of the Co* IP on November 6, 2007. PvP had already existed for 2 and a half years by that point.

[honoroit]

 

!pvp is wonderful!

 

a forced flag SERVER OPTION would be pretty great i think. thatd open stuff like pvp in hazard zones, or, gasp, atlas park thats not rv.

 

in ffxi, where, as with homecoming, i was also extra famous -- the first NA summoner to obtain fenrir...at level 60... we only had kickball for pvp, and i ran a taxi service, and did indeed dance for gil in jeuno, kupo.

[Oubliette_Red]

20 minutes ago, honoroit said:

<snip>

a forced flag SERVER OPTION would be pretty great i think. thatd open stuff like pvp in hazard zones, or, gasp, atlas park thats not rv.

 

<snip>

 

Not just 'No', not just 'Hell to the NO' but /jranger

 

"forced flag" and great/fun do not belong in the same sentence. In no world does 'forced' = fun.

 

I couldn't care less about open world PvP as long as it's strictly optional. And similar to AE should not be in starting zones.

 

[SwitchFade]

3 hours ago, The Chairman said:

I would be interested to see where people are getting the idea that NCSoft was the driving force behind PvP being added to the game. The Arena was added in May 2005 (I4), and PvP zones were introduced with the launch of CoV (I6) in October 2005.

 

NCSoft announced their purchase of the Co* IP on November 6, 2007. PvP had already existed for 2 and a half years by that point.

Paragon developed, ncsoft was the parent company. They bought the ip outright later, Paragon didn't launch this game on on their own, it was always an ncsoft title.

[macskull]

4 hours ago, honoroit said:

a forced flag SERVER OPTION would be pretty great i think. thatd open stuff like pvp in hazard zones, or, gasp, atlas park thats not rv

The problem with this is you would be taking an already-small PvP population and spreading them out over even more places.

[honoroit]

1 hour ago, macskull said:

The problem with this is you would be taking an already-small PvP population and spreading them out over even more places.

 

my thought was the pvpers would banish themselves all to a flagged server, and everything would be wonderous for everybody.

 

the pvpers would pvp, and pve too, they do that... and the 'i hate pvp' people would be free to listen to the empty wind on the shores at sirens call.

 

i know there was/is a 'pvp server' in so much as theres an official RP server... but i think that melted.

 

one thing of note, theres been an upsurge of red side this last week.

 

i want to join in but i need 1150MM inf to be able to make a symphony/dark dom or other something-i-better-be-damned-sure-about... no cosplay, no new character...

 

so im trapped in the tunnels, again.

Edited August 4, 2023 by honoroit

[Spaghetti Betty]

Hooray for personal problems!

[GM Crumpet]

On 8/2/2023 at 11:10 AM, UltraAlt said:

 

In PvP for defeating other players?

Multiboxer will just line up their weakest characters full of awakens, defeat them with their most powerful character as quickly as possible, toggle to rez them with the awakens, toggle back and defeat them before their dizzy from the awaken has ended, and repeat until they need to go back to a base to get more awakens so they can do it again. 

Giving anything lucrative for PvP is just going to turn PvP into a new form of farming abuse.

 

I didn't want to bring up how easily this can be abused and tried to target on how to organize something someone enjoyed, but it seems to be at the point that it had to be said clearly.

It's been said by a few people. Our admins try to anticipate things that can be exploited, and something as obvious as this would be a no from the start. And many people have tried to organise PvP events, including GM's and it's always ended up in disaster. They start well enough then a certain section spoils it for everyone else and the organisers walk away. The only events I know of now are from dedicated SG's who close it off to anyone not in their SG.

[Neiska]

9 hours ago, honoroit said:

the pvpers would pvp, and pve too, they do that... and the 'i hate pvp' people would be free to listen to the empty wind on the shores at sirens call.

 

Yyeeaa... It's currently not the pve'ers or "I hate pvp" people who are listening to the "empty wind." *Looks at empty pvp zones*

 

9 hours ago, honoroit said:

i want to join in but i need 1150MM inf to be able to make a symphony/dark dom or other something-i-better-be-damned-sure-about... no cosplay, no new character...

 

so im trapped in the tunnels, again.

 

Oh. Oh no. You have to earn something like everyone else? How sad. And the item you actually want is optional, cosmetic. Purposefully put into the game to give people something to work for, and to also act as a time sink. So I would say it is doing a pretty decent job at what it's designed to do.

[honoroit]

1 hour ago, Neiska said:

Yyeeaa... It's currently not the pve'ers or "I hate pvp" people who are listening to the "empty wind." *Looks at empty pvp zones*

 

wouldnt people have innertube beach parties, or film exotic rp gmvs along the coasts of a deserted pvp zone? 

 

🤔 thatd be appreciated, they could all wait nicely in line to get shivan kills or whatever it is one does for badges, and thered not be a baddy about to attack.

 

just peace, cosplay, and level auto-conn'd mobs that grant pretty good xp compared to regular street hunting.

 

all the pvpers would be busy being attacked on their new characters by the p2w lady in atlas, and loving it.

[Neiska]

43 minutes ago, honoroit said:

 

wouldnt people have innertube beach parties, or film exotic rp gmvs along the coasts of a deserted pvp zone?

 

No. If they wanted to do such a thing, they could do so now. But I doubt many would be willing to lounge about in a risky area and get ganked by people such as yourself, particularly when they have put so much time and effort into building customized bases of all different themes for just that sort of thing, with no risk of interference from persons such as yourself. 

 

43 minutes ago, honoroit said:

 

🤔 thatd be appreciated, they could all wait nicely in line to get shivan kills or whatever it is one does for badges, and thered not be a baddy about to attack.

 

just peace, cosplay, and level auto-conn'd mobs that grant pretty good xp compared to regular street hunting.

 

If people want to rp and adventure, there are plenty of opportunities to do so elsewhere. Literally the entire game in fact.

 

43 minutes ago, honoroit said:

 

all the pvpers would be busy being attacked on their new characters by the p2w lady in atlas, and loving it.

 

I am skeptical that you speak for the entire PVP community.

 

You say you want more PVP, but only one particularly aspect of pvp - that is open world conflict. Not arena matches, not team on teams, not a "fair fight" or contest of skill. You just want to stomp other players with as little risk as possible to yourself, and then expect HC to reward to you for what a good part of the community considers toxic behavior.

 

If you want that kind of pvp, there are entire IP series of games designed for that in mind. CoH is not one of them, and many of us are glad for that. If you want to "be attacked" then go play a game where you will be. Another possibility for you to consider is that perhaps it's not PVP at all but perhaps people simply don't wish to play with you personally. If all you desire is to attack people, even if they have zero desire to be attacked or involved, in a game not designed for such, I would consider that toxic behavior, and a fine example of why a good portion of the community dislikes PVP. This entire context of "screw what everyone else wants, or what the game is meant for, I want to pvp even against people who don't want to" I consider 1 step away from "1v1 ME SCRUB!" which resembles the worst parts of communities such as WoW or Diablo.

 

Edited August 4, 2023 by Neiska

[SeraphimKensai]

2 hours ago, Neiska said:

I am skeptical that you speak for the entire PVP community.

 

You say you want more PVP, but only one particularly aspect of pvp - that is open world conflict. Not arena matches, not team on teams, not a "fair fight" or contest of skill. You just want to stomp other players with as little risk as possible to yourself, and then expect HC to reward to you for what a good part of the community considers toxic behavior.

Historically the PvP community has created or drafted PvP teams and established league rules in effort to make PvP as fair as possible for people engaged. In arena we'd have kickball and have captains pick their team from a common group to balance the teams as much as possible, and then often rebalance as necessary in later rounds.

 

A lot of us in my experience have not been interested in the gank mentality that some people have but in wanting to fight the best their are and seeing how we stack up.

 

It's like when I play chess, I'd rather play against people with an 1800+ rating if I'm to improve as a player. That said I'll play with my 10 year old niece, but it's more me coaching her counters to various openings rather then going for checkmate like I was playing in a tournament.

 

I don't see how someone would enjoy PvP against someone that had no interest in pvping. Then again I just speak for myself.

[Neiska]

5 minutes ago, SeraphimKensai said:

Historically the PvP community has created or drafted PvP teams and established league rules in effort to make PvP as fair as possible for people engaged. In arena we'd have kickball and have captains pick their team from a common group to balance the teams as much as possible, and then often rebalance as necessary in later rounds.

 

A lot of us in my experience have not been interested in the gank mentality that some people have but in wanting to fight the best their are and seeing how we stack up.

 

It's like when I play chess, I'd rather play against people with an 1800+ rating if I'm to improve as a player. That said I'll play with my 10 year old niece, but it's more me coaching her counters to various openings rather then going for checkmate like I was playing in a tournament.

 

I don't see how someone would enjoy PvP against someone that had no interest in pvping. Then again I just speak for myself.

 

A fair comment, and I agree - personally I don't think the CoH PVP community itself are all gankers, or even a majority. If anything, the gankers are a minority, to my mind. But let's be fair here, it only takes the actions of a few, for people to assume the worst in any group of people. But that is my mere opinion. If what the OP was proposing was a league or some such, I would be fine with that, and I have nothing against those kinds of PVPers like yourself. But that form of PVP doesn't seem to be what the OP wants. A "fair fight" doesn't involve jumping people who not only aren't expecting it, in a supposedly "safe" place, but who aren't even interested in that form of gameplay. And I think it takes some gall to ask to be rewarded for such activity. And I think the entire idea of free-form, auto-flag PVP at any time, anywhere, in CoH to be the height of bad ideas. I certainly wouldn't log into any server with such rules in place. Even if I never got jumped, just the possibility that I "could" be, would be enough to ruin any enjoyable experience. I log in to relax, have fun, and to tinker with builds. Not to keep my head on a swivel, all my toggles on at all times, a tray full of inspirations, open to suddenly be attacked by anyone at any time.

 

Personally, I would sooner be at the dentist office with a broken air conditioning while a group of howler monkeys screeched as they scratched chalkboards than be "forced" into any kind of PVP, but that's just me. People who want to pvp and enjoy it are certainly free to do so, and I hope they get the PVP they want, truly. But I take a dim view of bribing/tricking/forcing players into such, particularly in a game like CoH where it is very much a "play your way" environment.

[Oubliette_Red]

3 hours ago, Neiska said:

<snip>

 

If people want to rp and adventure, there are plenty of opportunities to do so elsewhere. Literally the entire game in fact.

 

<snip>

 

This brings up an idea that's been floating around in my head since HC has managed to un-spaghettify the base code to some extent, and then @GM Crumpet brought up dedicated PvP SG's. 

 

What's been rolling around in my head is the possibility of bringing back base raiding, granted back when it was still a thing there was a much larger player base to take advantage of it. Now, with the current free-wheeling hand these miraculous HC devs have allowed base editing, I think base raiding would only be possible if SG's could make a duplicate base that had pathing restrictions (regarding placement of objects) and were specifically flagged for PvP. Or base maps that could be uploaded or flagged for use in the Arena. Back in my RP days on Legacy either of these would have been put to considerable use.

 

Just an idea.

 

[Neiska]

Just now, Oubliette_Red said:

 

This brings up an idea that's been floating around in my head since HC has managed to un-spaghettify the base code to some extent, and then @GM Crumpet brought up dedicated PvP SG's. 

 

What's been rolling around in my head is the possibility of bringing back base raiding, granted back when it was still a thing there was a much larger player base to take advantage of it. Now, with the current free-wheeling hand these miraculous HC devs have allowed base editing, I think base raiding would only be possible if SG's could make a duplicate base that had pathing restrictions (regarding placement of objects) and were specifically flagged for PvP. Or base maps that could be uploaded or flagged for use in the Arena. Back in my RP days on Legacy either of these would have been put to considerable use.

 

Just an idea.

 

 

I did not play on live, so I am only vaguely familiar with base raiding. If its just people kicking down the door to your base and ransacking it, destroying things, then I would take a pretty dim view of that. Some people have spent months on their bases, if not longer. to suddenly log in one day and see it destroyed would be enough to make me want to uninstall personally.

 

But if base raiding didn't destroy objects/placeables, I am uncertain what the goal or interaction would be. I also wonder at how much "space" or memory that might take to pull off, I mean you kind of just duplicated all the memory required for personal housing, unless it was a "created on spawn" kind of thing like mission maps. Not a computer smarty here so I have no idea how any of that would work.

 

But PVP SGs could work. if nothing else its a place for people with similar minds and playstyles to gather which I think is needed. So long as the base thing was an "opt in" instead of "free game" I doubt any would mind. It might actually boost some activity with some people offering to design bases and defenses and such to sell or even customize for the PVPers. Heck, you could even have a "run the gauntlet" kind of setup, but you can already sort of do that with AE now.

[honoroit]

maybe @Neiska is missing 'server flag' in my commentry on open pvp, like pvp vs pve servers in other games.

 

hence, people interested in pvp (open world) would (likely) move characters there.

 

and so, youd be less bothered, no?

[Oubliette_Red]

12 minutes ago, Neiska said:

 

I did not play on live, so I am only vaguely familiar with base raiding. If its just people kicking down the door to your base and ransacking it, destroying things, then I would take a pretty dim view of that. Some people have spent months on their bases, if not longer. to suddenly log in one day and see it destroyed would be enough to make me want to uninstall personally.

 

But if base raiding didn't destroy objects/placeables, I am uncertain what the goal or interaction would be. I also wonder at how much "space" or memory that might take to pull off, I mean you kind of just duplicated all the memory required for personal housing, unless it was a "created on spawn" kind of thing like mission maps. Not a computer smarty here so I have no idea how any of that would work.

 

But PVP SGs could work. if nothing else its a place for people with similar minds and playstyles to gather which I think is needed. So long as the base thing was an "opt in" instead of "free game" I doubt any would mind. It might actually boost some activity with some people offering to design bases and defenses and such to sell or even customize for the PVPers. Heck, you could even have a "run the gauntlet" kind of setup, but you can already sort of do that with AE now.

 

Base building in the past had to follow restrictions on placing items, such as not blocking doorways, hence 'pathing restrictions'.  While items could be "destroyed" like power supplies, controls, benches and such, they were repairable not completely destroyed. Giving the out-of-bounds placing and base building the HC guru's have granted base designers, this is why I suggested a duplicate base that is strictly for raiding. Perhaps objects would be in place, though portals might be off, not sure how those would work in a raid or if they should, and storage items would be empty.

 

Also, bases already have to be loaded when you enter similar to mission maps. :)

 

[Neiska]

1 minute ago, honoroit said:

maybe @Neiska is missing 'server flag' in my commentry on open pvp, like pvp vs pve servers in other games.

 

hence, people interested in pvp (open world) would (likely) move characters there.

 

and so, youd be less bothered, no?

 

Given that there are already pvp areas on all servers largely devoid of people, I don't see how having a server specifically made for open-world pvp would change that. Here is what I expect would happen -

 

1. If its an existing server suddenly made into open season PVP, anyone who doesn't want that would change servers or simply leave.

2. If it's a new server, you just made a server-sized PVP zone, that would be largely empty. You might get some people who would check it out shortly after launch, but as soon as the toxic behavior began (ganking new characters at lady liberty) I suspect that those seeking "legit" PVP would leave. So what would leave you with 3 - 

3. A server with few legitimate PVPers/duelers, a few people like yourself wondering where all their targets are.

4. Cue the "pay people to come to the pvp server!" posts.

 

Which is essentially the same thing as this same topic. Just instead of PVP zones, it would just be the PVP server.