Aggro limit.

[Andreah]

Regarding the opening post, I would not change the aggro system in any really significant way. The most I would do is tweak around the edges of the design.

[kelika2]

11 minutes ago, Andreah said:

When the team can handle the enemy action, herding keeps all the teams' AoEs constantly at their maximum capacities, and makes sure everyone has a fresh enemy close at hand to engage when their current one is defeated. Efficient herding means the team doesn't need to spend time travelling from spawn to spawn -- the spawn groups come to the team.

outside of say, citadel, i never once heard of anyone complain about traveling between enemy groups

[Andreah]

1 minute ago, kelika2 said:

outside of say, citadel, i never once heard of anyone complain about traveling between enemy groups

It's not a thing to complain about, it's something to enjoy when it works right. E.g., the team doesn't need to pile into that little conference room to fight the council guys, because the herder brought them out and down the hall to where all the AoEs were already set up and the team was already engaged. 

 

Some people do want to move from one group to another with a clear delineation between those fights, and that's okay. Others don't, and prefer a steady stream of enemies herded into one, longer, technically more efficient, fight. Neither is chaos.

 

Radically changing the aggro limits would have tactical and balance impacts I wouldn't find to be fun, and that's why I'm against them.

 

[FFFF]

I'd only be up for increasing aggro limits if the associated penalties for it were increased. It's silly to see a tank herd up dozen of supposed supervillains completely scot free. This is just an idea but why not introduce some sort of scaling debuff that occurs when you aggro more than a certain limit? This would be something like a larger number of foes being able to hit gaps in your defenses just because of raw numbers. Probably not realistic for a game of this age, but an increase in aggro without a corresponding increase in risk seems like a bad overall idea.

[ZemX]

37 minutes ago, Andreah said:

Efficient herding means the team doesn't need to spend time travelling from spawn to spawn -- the spawn groups come to the team. 

 

In my experience, the team ALWAYS has to travel.  You might herd a few nearby groups to the team but mobs move too slowly to keep any decent team fed.  It's not quite moving from one spawn to the next.  But it's not herding every spawn on the map to one spot either.  It's somewhere in between.  Like you might stop at a hallway intersection long enough to pull groups in from a couple different directions.  But that's about it.  Then the team moves again.

 

In probably 95% of the teams I join, it's not particularly worth it.  If I'm tanking, I might pop out of the scrum long enough to throw a taunt at a nearby group and pull them in.  But that's only if they are close enough.  And usually it's only on low or mid-level teams.  The higher up you go, things start to vaporize faster than you can even think about herding in some more slow-jogging enemy mobs.

[tidge]

Herding huge numbers of Rikti Monkeys (less so Giant Monsters) on Peregrine Island was fun (for some definitions of the word), but it isn't the kind of thing I feel like we need to bring back.

 

I am almost never bothered by the current "aggro cap". I am much more annoyed by the secondary effects of enemy AI and mission objectives, for example: when enemies run (so far) away that they essentially never re-engage with a player... and the mission completion is somehow tied to 'defeat all'... either on the map or in certain spawns. Similarly, I am non-plussed when enemy mobiles need to be defeated in order to reset events, but those also fall into the category of 'pay attention and you won't have an issue'.

 

I see no need to make radical changes for minor peeves when I am feeling lazy.

 

 

[Luminara]

Aggro limitations were relaxed some time ago.  You can aggro everything on a map, and as long as you're within range, all critters beyond the previous aggro limit will use ranged attacks, and move into melee range or become "locked" on you if/when you defeat critters.  You can't hold that aggro if someone else is attacking (or if you move out of ranged attack distance (they don't follow)), but you can definitely draw all of the attention you want, and if you're not careful, more than you can handle.

 

Any further aggro limit changes would be pointless without correlating changes to AoE target caps, and that's not happening.

 

Also, your poll sucks the sweat off of dirty yak scrotums.  It's a poorly disguised attack aimed at both players and the HC team.  Stop being a cunt.

[TheZag]

Back in the day of no agro limits,  teams were very selective of who could join.  You had the tank to herd everything,  a bunch of blasters to blow it all up,  and maybe 1 friend that got to leech since they werent a tank or blaster.  My controller was denied many teams back in the day because he couldnt herd or explode.  An illusion/kinetics controller with fulcrum shift literally couldnt get on a team that wanted maximum damage. 

 

There was one time a team 'let' me join but with the stipulation that i would probably get booted when a blaster wanted in.  They wondered why they were wrecking everything and i explained kinetics....again (alot of kinetics was misunderstood back in the day).  I didnt get booted that day but i dont want to return to the before times where stuff like that was more likely to occur.

 

If i were revamping the agro system it would stay very close to what it is now.  Taunt,  Confront,  Provoke and Challenge would let you temporarily over the agro limit if that mob is engaged to another player but not when the mob is idle.  Taunting something else would remove taunt from the first mob amd they would return to attacking the original player.  Basically you get 1 taunt worth of over the agro cap but only to peel a mob off a player.  Taunting to no effect or to lose some of your current agro always feels counter intuitive.

 

[Andreah]

1 hour ago, ZemX said:

 

In my experience, the team ALWAYS has to travel.  

My experience is different. It's entirely possible for a herder to keep even a fairly strong team fed with fresh mobs and clear an entire floor in a single fight.

 

Sometimes those single fights slowly move forward. And yes, sometimes it may be several fights. But it need not be a separate fight for every spawn group.

 

My overall point is that the current aggro limit supports plenty of herding for those who wish to do it.

 

38 minutes ago, Luminara said:

Aggro limitations were relaxed some time ago.  You can aggro everything on a map, and as long as you're within range, all critters beyond the previous aggro limit will use ranged attacks, and move into melee range or become "locked" on you if/when you defeat critters. 

This; entirely this. Skilled herders can use this to help ensure a steady stream of incoming mobs, too. 

[kelika2]

How about a compremise

Underlings do not count to the agro cap

And there can be a Taunt judgement that gives you a temp buff to go over the agro cap for a limited time.  as long as you promise not to herd with it

[Sailboat]

I remember when they changed the aggro cap in the first place and the huge, sustained, good things it brought to both teaming and solo.  It was such an obvious improvement to the experience of everyone but selfish tanks that I am stunned we are still talking about it.  PLEASE no change!!!!

[lemming]

3 hours ago, TheZag said:

There was one time a team 'let' me join but with the stipulation that i would probably get booted when a blaster wanted in.  They wondered why they were wrecking everything and i explained kinetics....again (alot of kinetics was misunderstood back in the day).  I didnt get booted that day but i dont want to return to the before times where stuff like that was more likely to occur.

Yea, I had a kinetics defender that got refused teams often since they weren't Empathy and people didn't realize what Fulcrum and speed boosts really do.

[Snarky]

16 minutes ago, lemming said:

Yea, I had a kinetics defender that got refused teams often since they weren't Empathy and people didn't realize what Fulcrum and speed boosts really do.

people did not want a kin?  dam, thats like refusing free money lol

[TheZag]

20 minutes ago, Snarky said:

people did not want a kin?  dam, thats like refusing free money lol

 

Back in the day i could only get on teams if speed boost was 4 slotted for end recovery.  They didnt care/know about the rest of the set.

 

[Snarky]

7 minutes ago, TheZag said:

 

Back in the day i could only get on teams if speed boost was 4 slotted for end recovery.  They didnt care/know about the rest of the set.

 

We need a response icon for facepalm.  Peeps got no idea how to play the game.  I never refuse anyone for a team.  Nor do i kick them if they are slow/lost/pulling wrong agro etc.  It just doesnt matter in modern game.  One or two strong teammates who know the gig can pull pretty much anything.  Maybe slower without help, but c;mon.

[Andreah]

31 minutes ago, Snarky said:

We need a response icon for facepalm.  Peeps got no idea how to play the game.  I never refuse anyone for a team.  Nor do i kick them if they are slow/lost/pulling wrong agro etc.  It just doesnt matter in modern game.  One or two strong teammates who know the gig can pull pretty much anything.  Maybe slower without help, but c;mon.

I think it's much better today. I never see anyone rejected from a team unless the team is attempting something unusual, like a hard mode, certain badge runs, or an "all-x" team.

[lemming]

1 hour ago, Snarky said:

We need a response icon for facepalm.  Peeps got no idea how to play the game.  I never refuse anyone for a team.  Nor do i kick them if they are slow/lost/pulling wrong agro etc.  It just doesnt matter in modern game.  One or two strong teammates who know the gig can pull pretty much anything.  Maybe slower without help, but c;mon.

It was the early days.  We hadn't even had ED, aggro limits, or regen nerfed yet.   My group thought it was pretty funny at the time.

[Solarverse]

I personally feel that it went from one extreme to the other. Going from unlimited to 13 is...well, stupid. It should have been more like 35 to 50, at least enough to gather aggro of an entire room, but not enough to get the aggro of an entire map. Judging from conversations over the years in game, it would indicate the majority of players want this, however, the majority of player do not post the forums, so we have forum posters who have the loudest voices on the subject. However, I feel 13 always has been far too low and unlimited has always been far too high. But, like most games, you either get far too much or far too less, there is almost never a happy medium.

[Zep]

Originally there was no limit for agro, aoe, etc.

 

This created play styles, like a Fire tank pulling a whole map into a dumpster/container, or flying defenders using an anchor to pull all the monkeys on monkeys island at the same time, that the live devs didnt feel were good for the game.

 

Doesn't mean things haven't changed again, though with tougher than ever characters I suspect those behaviors' would be back quickly.

[ZemX]

27 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

it would indicate the majority of players want this, however, the majority of player do not post the forums, so we have forum posters who have the loudest voices on the subject.

 

Except for you, you mean?

[ivanhedgehog]

17 hours ago, Snarky said:

In no game that i have seen is that happening 

 

Also it would kill the fun.  Learning how to dismantle mobs with powers while they try to kill you is the challenge 

no game but......COH. Before the GDN et all. They expanded the agro caps for "realism". Is it realistic for a group of thugs to be caught in a nuke and it doesnt hit one of them because he was the excess guy? No.

If you jack up the cap, keep that balanced with the rest of the world. Other wise stay with an agro cap of 16. The game is being changed to satisfy little groups, and is no longer the game we all wanted to come back. adding power sets, missions etc is great. changing the basic world will only satisfy the niche players that are currently in favor.

[Solarverse]

2 hours ago, ZemX said:

 

Except for you, you mean?

Nobody has a louder voice than me...don't even try me bud, I'll break out the megaphone on your candy ass.

[Mopery]

Aggro-ing the entire zone takes too long, we need the fastest speed available.

I'm imagining every character having access to this new power available at the P2W vendor:

 

Defeats every mob on the map. Any map, anywhere, any time.

Gimme all the loot please!

[Snarky]

1 minute ago, Mopery said:

Aggro-ing the entire zone takes too long, we need the fastest speed available.

I'm imagining every character having access to this new power available at the P2W vendor:

 

Defeats every mob on the map. Any map, anywhere, any time.

Gimme all the loot please!

can it find all 17 mages in that stupid blueside mission too?

 

 

[Andreah]

2 minutes ago, Mopery said:

Aggro-ing the entire zone takes too long, we need the fastest speed available.

I'm imagining every character having access to this new power available at the P2W vendor:

 

Defeats every mob on the map. Any map, anywhere, any time.

Gimme all the loot please!

I would be happy enough if all it did was defeat the one last mob on a map that I can't find. Non-mission-boss, ofc.