Officially Unofficial Weekly Discussion #39: The Council at War

[SeraphimKensai]

Welcome back, I was speaking to someone recently who was a newer player while doing a few Council missions. It gave me the idea for this week's thread.

 

Back in Issue 3, the 5th Column and the Council were seen for 1 day in-game openly fighting to the death. Afterwards the 5th Column was retired, albeit temporarily when they came back via ouroboros in i11. This was the first time in game where npcs would fight each other which I always thought was a cool idea to include as a lot of enemy factions hate each other based on lore. Today it seems there are story connections for the 5th Column and Council as individual enemy groups spread across the whole game.

 

How do you feel about the 5th Column and Council in the game? Are their missions interesting? Do they have a good variety of mob types? Do they present a reasonable challenge? What are your favorite 5th Column/ Council story arcs? Least favorite (guessing a a lot of you will say Citadel here due to the repetitive kill all's and long travel distance/zone changes)? If you were to change anything about the 5th Column or Council what would it be? Do you have any other thoughts on the 5th Column/Council?

 

As always thanks.

Edited August 1, 2023 by SeraphimKensai

[Clave Dark 5]

I generally enjoy a good chance to punch Nazis, but the radio-mission farming of them does start to flag quickly.  They are a bit easy at that level, tbf.  But overall I think they're a solid group design, they seem to have a reason for existing and the mobs do have some nice variation, what with the werewolves and vampires and robots..

[UltraAlt]

18 hours ago, SeraphimKensai said:

Back in Issue 3, the 5th Column and the Council were seen for 1 day in-game openly fighting to the death.

 

 

18 hours ago, SeraphimKensai said:

How do you feel about the 5th Column and Council in the game?

 

I like fighting the 5th Column, but I understand why it was removed for the European release.

 

The Council is simply a fascist military group that doesn't dress in quite as much like a notorious historical enemy of Captain America and other heroes.

 

 

I don't know how it is in the comic book shops these days, but it used to be that you couldn't walk into a comic store without there being at least one recent comic book on the racks where someone was fighting a Fifth Column like organization.

 

To me, fascists are good enemies to fight against. (I apologize of I'm breaking any forum standards by saying that.)

 

18 hours ago, SeraphimKensai said:

Do they have a good variety of mob types?

 

They have variety enough to meet the genre standards.

 

18 hours ago, SeraphimKensai said:

Do they present a reasonable challenge?

 

From what I hear, the Council are considered to be one of the weaker level 50 enemies. That is to say, I hear that people pick them to fight on level 50 police scanner missions in Peregrine Island as they are seen to be weaker than the other enemies at that level.

 

So, at level 50, I would say no. 

They need to be beefed up at level 50.

 

I would add some Council at level 50 that are able to use radiation (nuclear)  and toxic (chemical) attacks.

 

18 hours ago, SeraphimKensai said:

What are your favorite 5th Column/ Council story arcs?

 

I like Striga in general including the task forces there.

 

18 hours ago, SeraphimKensai said:

Least favorite (guessing a a lot of you will say Citadel here due to the repetitive kill all's and long travel distance/zone changes)?

 

I generally don't have issues will kill all as long as they don't have enemies hiding under stairs or in weird locations.

 

18 hours ago, SeraphimKensai said:

If you were to change anything about the 5th Column or Council what would it be?

 

I would like to see more arcs fighting the 5th Column.

 

As indicated above, I would probably give the 5th Column and the council some radiation and toxic attacks after level 40 or so.

 

18 hours ago, SeraphimKensai said:

Do you have any other thoughts on the 5th Column/Council?

 

Did I say that I liked punching the 5th Column and Council?

I pretty much like using any weapon to fight against them.

 

Edited August 2, 2023 by UltraAlt
sentence rewording

[A Cat]

I think I hate navigating their bases. I don't think I actually have claustrophobia, but when I'm in one of their bases, I think I should. 

[Turric]

I would like to see the Council Warwalkers included in more missions as boss / elite boss level enemies. There are precious few areas to kill them outside of Boomtown.

[Spaghetti Betty]

I think they're great! As much as they are "the same" gameplay wise, they do have their own large impacts on the story whenever they're implemented at a key level. One of my favorite aspects in the lore was how their conflict was basically a hand-wave at first, but then culminated into a large scale invasion by the 5th that transcended time (and dimensions, too!). The one constant in all of this is that Requiem always wins.

 

While the Council have taken a backseat to that (losing the battle of time itself and most of your lieutenants to your greatest rival tends to do that), I'm sure there's plenty of lore reasons to plan a resurgence of some sort with them.

 

I do hope to see them bolstered in some way in the upper levels. Anyone who has solo'd a squishy through the early levels can tell you that they do tend to shred anything without sufficient protection. I remember when Galaxies were added to Council. They did a pretty good job of bringing the pain, but that was before IOs and the ability to slot your own Slow RES. IMO, Council/5th are the perfect candidates to gain Leadership buffs. They are rank and file soldiers that should have some degree of formation training. Makes sense to me.

 

My favorite Council/5th storylines are of course Striga, Kahn TF, ITF, and a special mention goes out to the bonus 5th Column boss fight in the Aeon SF!

Edited August 2, 2023 by Spaghetti Betty

[Uun]

4 hours ago, Turric said:

I would like to see the Council Warwalkers included in more missions as boss / elite boss level enemies. There are precious few areas to kill them outside of Boomtown.

They show up in Provost Marchand's 2nd and 3rd arcs.

[twozerofoxtrot]

The Council's leadership seems more interesting than the faction itself. 

 

I'd rather deal with them more directly than constantly wade through a sea of stooges for whatever distantly relayed goal I'm meant to be striving for.

[Yomo Kimyata]

I wish they would stop broadcasting their tv show.  
 

[UltraAlt]

7 hours ago, A Cat said:

I think I hate navigating their bases. I don't think I actually have claustrophobia, but when I'm in one of their bases, I think I should. 

 

At least the cave walls aren't purple!

[Clave Dark 5]

7 hours ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

I wish they would stop broadcasting their tv show. 

Everyone Loves Council, this fall on CBS!

[Greycat]

Eh, 5th Column and Council are sort of ... bland. Which is why (aside from "fun to punch fascists") they're used as radio-mission farms in the upper levels. No real challenge to them.

 

I'd rather see them diverge more and have their own flavor. Push the mechanized, tech, superhuman side more with the 5th.

 

The council - well, technically the Nictus were defeated and driven offworld through the Kheldian arcs, and it's shown much of the Council doesn't really know about them (and sometimes gets implanted without their consent - but then again, fascists) but pushing them *even more* in that direction would probably differentiate them. (If it can be done without stomping all over current lore.) 

 

Honestly... they're one (well, two) of the long time (and few) low-level-to-50 groups we have, but there's no real payoff to them. There's striga, sure, but that's - going through the story arcs - two peoples' projects, not "the Council." If we were going to expand something - there's Axis America already in lore. Doing a little trip through Portal to free a freshly conquered world (which should be multiple arcs and, potentially, a TF) wouldn't be bad for the 5th column, perhaps, and I don't think would require much as far as "new assets." Sure, same old maps, but still. The Council, as mentioned, should have more of a public Nictus reveal with them coming in with a big, final push or something. (Again, though... how to do so without contradicting or just walking all over the current Kheldian arcs...)

 

 

[Uun]

Mender Lazarus TF (The 5th Column Overthrow) in Ouro is pretty good.

[Snarky]

It took me a while of diving into the lore.  It all starts to make sense to me now.

 

[Yomo Kimyata]

15 hours ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

I wish they would stop broadcasting their tv show.  
 

I can’t decide if this would be six hours of “Council rules!  5th Column drools!” or if it would be 12 half-hour episodes of wacky hi jinks all based on hilarious misunderstandings “Nosferatu is pregnant?!?  And Burkholder is the father?!?!?”

[Scarlet Shocker]

TYDKYDK*: When Brubaker wrote the Captain America death arc as the finale of Civil War, it was broadcast on the BBC Radio 4 5pm news programme. Eddie Mair, the presenter and a highly respected journalist announced it as a headline: "The man who punched Hitler on the nose is dead"

 

I interviewed War Witch in 2008 at the CoH Mini-Con at Omega Sektor in Birmingham. She is adamant that the 5th Column do not represent Nazis. Both Council and 5th are fascists. Given that she was lead dev at the time, I consider that lore but I know why people assume otherwise. Either way, it does feel exceptionally good to put a fascist out of my misery in any universe.

 

I like both factions as an enemy group and despite its flaws, the Reichman s/tf (both sides) is fun and remains challenging even for incarnates, and doesn't take too long but importantly, can still be failed (I consider that to be a good thing - no TF should be able to be completed by idle button mashing IMNSHO) It's one of my favourite options, especially Kahn, simply because the waves of 5th at the end can be a bit tedious if you don't have the teamage to deal with them in short order.

 

But another reason to enjoy them is that they have such rich lore in game. They do seem to have had plenty of positive Dev attention over the years. Perhaps because as players we can all recognise the threat that fascism represents, which is more real than the magic of Circle of Thorns or the alien culture of the Rikti, et al.

 

Spoiler

*Things You Didn't Know You Didn't Know

 

 

[UltraAlt]

3 hours ago, Scarlet Shocker said:

I interviewed War Witch in 2008 at the CoH Mini-Con at Omega Sektor in Birmingham. She is adamant that the 5th Column do not represent Nazis. Both Council and 5th are fascists. Given that she was lead dev at the time, I consider that lore but I know why people assume otherwise.

 

The helmets and German names goes a long way toward the connection. I can't see there being no connection at all.

I'm sure Jack "the Statesman" Emmert knew that connection would be seen even if he tried to brush it off to the others he was working with.

 

Have to look for the helmets here as the footage is a bit muddy, but the use of the helmets here on the Philistines seems intentional ....

 

 

They put a cloth underneath it the trails down the back of the neck, but, still, the helmets

 

3 hours ago, Scarlet Shocker said:

Either way, it does feel exceptionally good to put a fascist out of my misery in any universe.

Spoiler

 

3 hours ago, Scarlet Shocker said:

But another reason to enjoy them is that they have such rich lore in game. They do seem to have had plenty of positive Dev attention over the years. Perhaps because as players we can all recognise the threat that fascism represents

 

[UltraAlt]

4 minutes ago, UltraAlt said:

 

 

 

Oh, this short fight scene was just too superheroic in its own right not to share even though it is of topic.

 

 

[Scarlet Shocker]

21 minutes ago, UltraAlt said:

 

Oh, this short fight scene was just too superheroic in its own right not to share even though it is of topic.

 

 

no double entendres there. Move along. Nothing to be seen! No, don't even think it.

[UltraAlt]

1 minute ago, Scarlet Shocker said:

no double entendres there. Move along. Nothing to be seen! No, don't even think it.

 

lol.

But the super strength, rock walls and statues being knocked down, and staff fighting ...oh, I see, yes... the staff fighting ...

 

 

[Scarlet Shocker]

1 hour ago, UltraAlt said:

 

lol.

But the super strength, rock walls and statues being knocked down, and staff fighting ...oh, I see, yes... the staff fighting ...

 

 

rock hard thrusting! 😱

[drbuzzard]

Just to be a bit different- there's really nothing wrong with the 5th column being the creampuffs of level 50 content. Something has to be the easiest. If people want harder, they are welcome to grab Carnie or Malta missions. PI radio groups are often a way of high level people helping lowbies get some XP while actually playing instead of standing at a door in a farm. Council makes it so those lowbies can be in the fight at least somewhat instead of examining the floor close up if the fight were Carnies or Malta. When half your team is under 20, lvl 50 Council isn't really that easy (depends on builds etc, I know some people solo +4x8 council by facerolling on the keyboard). I know a half lowbie team fighting Malta or Carnies is a questionable endeavor. 

[GastlyGibus]

I don't mind Council/5th from a lore perspective. I really like the idea that they're an ever-present threat from level 1 all the way to 50, a para-military organization that has a foothold in nearly every city in Paragon, built on nothing but their own tenacity and force of will (with maybe a dash of mind control sprinkled in). That being said, though, there are a few things I think are odd about them that could stand to be changed or altered.

First and foremost, from a lore perspective, the Council doesn't really seem to have any major distinctions like most other enemy groups. Virtually every other villain group in the game has a niche, a hook, something that makes them distinct from all the other villain groups. Hellions are fire-wielding demon worshippers, Outcasts are elemental mutants, Circle of Thorns are evil wizards with spooky ghosts, Malta are tactical secret agents trained to neutralize supers, you get the idea. Council, on the other hand, are all over the place in terms of theme. I know that technically their theme is forbidden science, but it doesn't really show, and it doesn't make a lot of sense. 

 

The warwolves and vampyri are supposed to be scientifically created, but I never understood that. Werewolves and vampires bring to mind magic and mystical forces, not genetic experimentation. The Nictus angle works really well for this, but it's not really utilized as effectively as it should be. Galaxy soldiers all look exactly the same, and they never really grow and evolve into anything more than "soldiers in tights with shadow blasts." If I were in charge of rewriting them, I'd probably ditch the warwolf/vampyri angle and lean heavily into the Nictus and science angle. Instead of werewolves, give us genetically altered soldiers bolstered by cybernetics and super serums. The description of some Council soldiers already mentions that they're scientifically enhanced to be incredibly powerful, so show us the absolute pinnacle of that. Imagine a Council soldier, hopped up on some unholy super serum, shrugging off bullets and grenades like they were nerf darts, and running in to punch some poor hero right in the face. Imagine if the Galaxy soldiers behaved more like the PPD Awakened, and utilized far more powerful Nictus powers, like transforming and crowd control. Imagine the Ascendants being far more present instead of the extremely rare, scripted encounters they are, leading their soldiers into battle and bolstering them with powerful force fields and military acumen.

 

Right now, they don't really give off that vibe. In the later game they're just very random and disorganized. Soldiers with guns, mixed with some werewolves, some vampires, some killer robots, and some alien people. It's too eclectic to me and it kind of makes the Council a bit disappointing, especially considering that they're heavily present in the end-game, plotting for world domination and total control.

 

The second issue, and one that others have already mentioned, is that they're... just too easy. They don't pack any real punch that most villain groups have at the 40-50 range. The Carnival has their illusionists and endurance sapping; Nemesis has their leadership buffs and force fields; Malta has their crowd control; Circle of Thorns has their elemental magic and debuffs. The Council are just kind of... guys with guns. And werewolves, sometimes.

 

I'd love to see the Council buffed with the things I mentioned above. Give me super soldiers! Deadly aliens controlling the powers of darkness! Leadership buffs and tactics! Make them interesting and threatening. Give them a niche, because they desperately need one.

Finally, to put an end to this long-winded rant of mine, can the 5th Column and Council stop killing each other in the streets? It makes the "Defeat XX Council" missions damn-near impossible to complete because the Council troops are usually dead before I even get a chance to fire a shot.

Edited August 3, 2023 by GastlyGibus

[kelika2]

I do not do Citadel anymore because I cannot take the ants nest tier missions.

Getting stuck constantly

Or fighting in a very cramped tunnel

Or the spacing between enemy groups.

 

I dunno what the map maker is like but Citadel needs some/all remade maps to have spacious caves like Moonfire or Atta with those baige... unit... council floor things added in

 

[rolandgrey]

The Council and the Fifth Column are too much alike in terms of gameplay.  They're both military terrorists, they both have robots, they both have werewolves, they both have vampires.  The Council winds up with the benefit of having the Galaxy troopers and sonic-based weaponry.

 

In the end, they're both speed bumps as far as challenge.  I usually treat the Council and Fifth Column as little more than an establishment of "par."  Is my character build good enough to easily get through a Council mission?  If so, then it's at the basic level to play.  If not, then I clearly screwed up somewhere.  Fifth Column just doesn't appear in Police Band or Newspaper missions, so I can't really use them for comparison, but since they lack the versatility of the Council, I'd probably fare even better against them.

 

At least one group needs to change, though it would be preferable if both did.  The Council just got a pile of technology from Praetoria, if any group were to have a change in appearance and capability, it would be them.  Maybe let the Fifth Column keep the robots, werewolves and vampires while the Council starts to get backpack weaponry, magicians, pistoleers, personal drones and psychics.

Of course, then the question becomes "Where do the lieutenants go?"  Vandal, Maestro and Arakhn would probably stay with the Center and the Council, as it's the (very slightly) less problematic organization.  Nosferatu (and his counterpart, Schadenfreude) and Burkholder would probably return to the Fifth Column because Requiem is more likely to indulge their vices (plus, he's got a pocket Reichsman).  Let Vandal play around with the new gear he finds with the Praetorian refugees, let the Fifth Column tumble deeper into the dark recesses of the occult and super science.

 

Finally, they've been back long enough.  Perhaps it's time to have the Fifth Column start showing up in the police band and newspaper missions.