How do you circle that square?

[cranebump]

5 hours ago, Ruin Mage said:

But this is why I'm no developer. I don't particularly care for ancient legacy being put on a pedestal as 'must not touch'. I think all content, legacy or not, is not immune to being modified or changed or even re-evaluated in grander ways.

There's a LOT of old content that just doesn't get played at all anymore, much of it with good reason (what's the one where you have, like 12-13 rescues in one map? [or something like that?] Brrr...). Some of it could be done away with, for sure. Content tied in with the big picture storytelling would be hard to banish for good, however. I will say though, that there's a LOT of room in the "cracks" in the lore. I know this because I write AE stories there a lot, and have run other people's stories that expand on what we already have. Getting good stuff that players have created into the actual game is not an automatic task, though. That said, there's a whole lot of good-to-excellent player content already developed that could fit right in the current world (and no worse than some of the more, um, unimaginative legacy content). However, I'm not sure it'd be enough to complete with the TF train that forms the story of many, many characters these days. I mean, you can start in AP with Habashy-Fields/Costel-Thiery and get a good dose of story there, then hit KR for Stockwell/Eagle Eye. Those are decent quality openers that are ignored by teams. 

 

On the whole, though, I think, since the TF train IS the model, we really, really need a revamp of Synapse and Cit. Lordy mamma...such a gd repetitive grind. A dedicated TF for KR might be nice, btw.

 

(Lest I forget - feel like I should throw in a nod to redside here-the quality of Redside Legacy arcs is MUCH better than Blue, but not many are playing them. All of the new HC material is better than most mundane Legacy mishes [as it should be, frankly].)

Edited August 14, 2023 by cranebump

[Hedgefund]

12 minutes ago, Seed22 said:

I don't like assuming one's intent, I just know that this mindset is common lately. I personally don't see the need for things to change drastically. But I think it may be due to people thinking changes will make this game more attractive to newer players(not gonna happen. at least in large quantities. It's gameplay loop is fundamentally basic, and the modern gaming audience demands a LOT more than CoH can deliver.) I don't like being a bearer of bad news, but the best and only changes that will have long-term impacts are QoL and new powersets at this point. The game's core loop is established and won't be redone, so no point in trying(if of course that's the goal with any of these changes).

 

 

As far as change goes for me with CoH; treat it like an old car. Don't try to pimp it out with crazy new accessories and hydraulics, work to make it the best and smoothest running car on the road(QoL/powerset additions vs gaming modes trying to capture a modern audience that won't really pan out.) Could be the biggest difference between wasted resources and actual long term growth.

 

 

I'm no dev, but I am a longterm CoH vet whose watched changes over the game's lifecycle since i6. The best ones I've seen have always been QoL updates and powersets; CoH's strong suit

I'm not motivated to type out a long response so I'm just going to +1 this.  I welcome new players, they are important but this is a game for old vets and efforts to attract new players at the expense of the old would be a net negative.  

 

All I'm looking for is occasional new content/ new encounters, some powersets, tweaks to underperformers and QoL, QoL, QoL.

[SeraphimKensai]

Evenly rotate the square while applying an even amount of pressure against a belt sander so that it sands off the edges into a circle.

 

Depending on what kind of material I can make some recommendations towards belt grit. But sad with a low number like a 40/80 and go up from there.

[Techwright]

On 8/13/2023 at 10:26 AM, Glacier Peak said:

How would you balance game development for a player base who has both experienced the game one way since legacy launch and with the new players who through all odds find themselves trying out this super hero MMO?

 

If you think about it, we long-term players have been experiencing different "game development" over the years.  Take the level 1-22 slog for example.  When I started out (late 2004, early 2005) there was no P2W vendor hawking free XP boosts, no "Death From Below" to speed your journey, especially not something easily repeatable, and no reduced impact on endurance. There also were no police band/newspaper contacts. We had to run standard contact missions, and most everyone ended up in The Hollows working their way to Frostfire.  There also were no settings allowing an instance to deliver greater or lesser difficulty depending on what you thought you could handle.  And these mentioned are but a fraction of all those changes.

 

If I try to put myself into noob shoes,  trying to find a way to get the full experience of the game, I'd probably start by limiting the number of DFB runs I could have.  When I returned to the game and discovered DFB, Three things give it massive appeal:

1. Fastest way to security level 20 in shortest time.  Moreso if I'm running one of the P2W free XP boosts.

2. Rewarded at the end with one of four boosts valid to level 22.   I've run DFB enough times to realize I'll have all 4 by level 16, and I can still use them for 6 more levels, which can be had fairly quickly by running DFB to level 22, if you're so inclined. 

3. You are gaining XP but there's a cutoff to what level you play DFB at, so you don't really experience the end drain that was typical to level 20 in the past. 

 

I think I'd want to have my noob self run it twice for speed xp, then have it drop to standard xp.  This makes it less appealing but putting it close enough to Posi 1 and 2 minimum requirements.  I could still run it though, if I wanted to, and collect all 4 boosts.  I'll have them a bit longer if I do that.

 

Contact missions: I feel my noob self would not really be challenged to run the contact missions.  The XP is standard, there's a story, but I probably won't get to read much of it because the team will want to power through it, so in effect, why not just do police band missions?  I'm not sure what the answer(s) is/are for this.  Maybe the police band for a zone only unlocks after working through 2 contacts' arcs?  Some sort of bonus to a standard contact arc that makes it worthwhile for my noob self to spend time in these, as opposed to just running TF's with the bonus XP, or yeah, farming?

 

Increased interesting mid-level content.  This has gotten better over the years.  It used to be a wasteland, but I still feel it a little, and default back to rerunning mid-level TFs to compensate.  YMMV.

[Hedgefund]

DFB has already been nerfed to give signifcantly lower xp at or around level 20.  Limiting the number of runs has already de facto been done.

[Snarky]

4 hours ago, cranebump said:

There's a LOT of old content that just doesn't get played at all anymore, much of it with good reason (what's the one where you have, like 12-13 rescues in one map? [or something like that?] Brrr...). Some of it could be done away with, for sure. Content tied in with the big picture storytelling would be hard to banish for good, however. I will say though, that there's a LOT of room in the "cracks" in the lore. I know this because I write AE stories there a lot, and have run other people's stories that expand on what we already have. Getting good stuff that players have created into the actual game is not an automatic task, though. That said, there's a whole lot of good-to-excellent player content already developed that could fit right in the current world (and no worse than some of the more, um, unimaginative legacy content). However, I'm not sure it'd be enough to complete with the TF train that forms the story of many, many characters these days. I mean, you can start in AP with Habashy-Fields/Costel-Thiery and get a good dose of story there, then hit KR for Stockwell/Eagle Eye. Those are decent quality openers that are ignored by teams. 

 

On the whole, though, I think, since the TF train IS the model, we really, really need a revamp of Synapse and Cit. Lordy mamma...such a gd repetitive grind. A dedicated TF for KR might be nice, btw.

 

(Lest I forget - feel like I should throw in a nod to redside here-the quality of Redside Legacy arcs is MUCH better than Blue, but not many are playing them. All of the new HC material is better than most mundane Legacy mishes [as it should be, frankly].)

17 rescues on a huge map….then it is a kill all you find out after the last one is found.   Gotta love blueside

[Ruin Mage]

10 hours ago, Glacier Peak said:

I'm seeing a "my way or the highway" approach in your response, is that accurate?

Sort of?

The way I see it; Unless I'm getting paid to do this (in some hypothetical) then ultimately development is at my whims within this question. That or at the whims, in HC's case, of the developers. Ergo, while suggestions and feedback can be considered? Ultimately, the power falls in the developer's hands and always should fall in their hands.

It is their server primarily, and what they wish to design is what we can give input on when it reaches various stages of testing. Obviously there is some caveat to be had there - that some changes are taken back by way of our feedback. However, that is only by way of the good nature of the developers or the idea just not working out the way they desire.

The same can be said of Rebirth, Cake, and The Other Server - where what is done is very much at the whims of their developers.

 

 

10 hours ago, Glacier Peak said:

you think it's healthy for the developers of the game to ignore that majority of players suggestions and feedback? Is that fair to presume?

My stance is that player feedback and suggestions should be heavily filtered. I need only point at Beanbag, the Non-Tester Screeching at the Defense Changes, and much else of the Open Beta over the course of previous pages. I only think ignoring is the answer in the case of those who want to fight tooth and nail (through whatever means) to express their entitlement. No naming names or anything of course.

I do not believe that players know better than the developers is a way to summarize my stance. If people wish to believe this way then they can go make their own server - which is, I understand, a very nasty way of looking at things. However, I stand by it as I've never really believed we are owed anything just by playing or helping pay for server costs. I have a very strong distaste for entitlement and it has been STRONG on the forums over the years.

Edited August 14, 2023 by Ruin Mage

[Glacier Peak]

7 hours ago, Seed22 said:

I don't like assuming one's intent, I just know that this mindset is common lately. I personally don't see the need for things to change drastically. But I think it may be due to people thinking changes will make this game more attractive to newer players(not gonna happen. at least in large quantities. It's gameplay loop is fundamentally basic, and the modern gaming audience demands a LOT more than CoH can deliver.) I don't like being a bearer of bad news, but the best and only changes that will have long-term impacts are QoL and new powersets at this point. The game's core loop is established and won't be redone, so no point in trying(if of course that's the goal with any of these changes).

 

 

As far as change goes for me with CoH; treat it like an old car. Don't try to pimp it out with crazy new accessories and hydraulics, work to make it the best and smoothest running car on the road(QoL/powerset additions vs gaming modes trying to capture a modern audience that won't really pan out.) Could be the biggest difference between wasted resources and actual long term growth.

 

I'm no dev, but I am a longterm CoH vet whose watched changes over the game's lifecycle since i6. The best ones I've seen have always been QoL updates and powersets; CoH's strong suit

I appreciate the clarity!

 

Edit: I wanted to add more since you took the time to write a good response to my question. We're in agreement it seems - I do like to hear from folks who have a different opinion than I do though, so that's why I posited a follow up hypothetical to the previous poster. 

 

When it comes to a game community who has the level of continuous development like this one does, while also having decades of user feedback and tweaks, it's going to look and feel different from when it first hit the streets - no doubt about it. I am satisfied, in fact, I'm impressed with the development speed and have no qualms with the direction the HC Team has been taking. It feels like we're in good hands. 

Edited August 14, 2023 by Glacier Peak

[Glacier Peak]

1 hour ago, Ruin Mage said:

Sort of?

The way I see it; Unless I'm getting paid to do this (in some hypothetical) then ultimately development is at my whims within this question. That or at the whims, in HC's case, of the developers. Ergo, while suggestions and feedback can be considered? Ultimately, the power falls in the developer's hands and always should fall in their hands.

It is their server primarily, and what they wish to design is what we can give input on when it reaches various stages of testing. Obviously there is some caveat to be had there - that some changes are taken back by way of our feedback. However, that is only by way of the good nature of the developers or the idea just not working out the way they desire.

The same can be said of Rebirth, Cake, and The Other Server - where what is done is very much at the whims of their developers.

 

 

My stance is that player feedback and suggestions should be heavily filtered. I need only point at Beanbag, the Non-Tester Screeching at the Defense Changes, and much else of the Open Beta over the course of previous pages. I only think ignoring is the answer in the case of those who want to fight tooth and nail (through whatever means) to express their entitlement. No naming names or anything of course.

I do not believe that players know better than the developers is a way to summarize my stance. If people wish to believe this way then they can go make their own server - which is, I understand, a very nasty way of looking at things. However, I stand by it as I've never really believed we are owed anything just by playing or helping pay for server costs. I have a very strong distaste for entitlement and it has been STRONG on the forums over the years.

Thank you for taking the time to answer my question. I agree with your points, especially your last sentence. 

[A Cat]

7 hours ago, cranebump said:

I mean, you can start in AP with Habashy-Fields/Costel-Thiery and get a good dose of story there, then hit KR for Stockwell/Eagle Eye. Those are decent quality openers that are ignored by teams. 

One thing for me is that story lines are not easily experienced in teams in this game IMO. Solo let's you have time to read the stuff, and window dialogue isn't shown to non-team leaders. I do like experiencing the good story lines in this game personally. I assume the original devs learned of this short coming and had more cutscenes and in game dialogue to bring the story to the non-leaders. There are a lot of great and drama filled arcs in this game. I think it would be great if it were easier to experience these as a team. 

2 hours ago, Snarky said:

17 rescues on a huge map….then it is a kill all you find out after the last one is found.   Gotta love blueside

If this is Croatoa that Cranebump is talking about, then there are some other real doozys in those arcs too. It is a shame since it is a cool area and pretty cool story. Some of those are the most fun you can have short of being tied to a chair in a psychopath's basement with jumper cables on your nads. 

[biostem]

On 8/13/2023 at 10:26 AM, Glacier Peak said:

How would you balance game development for a player base who has both experienced the game one way since legacy launch and with the new players who through all odds find themselves trying out this super hero MMO?

Two important considerations, possibly the most crucial, are making the game fun no matter what kind of character you play and respecting the players' time.  For the first point, it is important that everybody feels "needed", while also balancing the experience to not favor any particular play style over another.  CoH has always had a problem with "damage being king", but nearly every AT can do good damage *eventually*.  As to my second point, travel powers have always been a tradeoff that greatly enhances this aspect of the game.  ATT, TT, and the various teleporters are another facet of this.  Experienced players know how to maximize their actual play time, while minimizing travel or other such "filler".  At the same time, new players may feel the weight to "go go go", instead of doing a bit of street sweeping or play other content that is of their level.  This can undermine any sense of immersion and make the game feel like nothing more than a race to 50.  The same holds true for chasing after those 5 LotG global recharge IOs, capping defense, and so on...

[Herotu]

8 hours ago, cranebump said:

There's a LOT of old content that just doesn't get played at all anymore, much of it with good reason (what's the one where you have, like 12-13 rescues in one map? [or something like that?] Brrr...). Some of it could be done away with, for sure. Content tied in with the big picture storytelling would be hard to banish for good, however. I will say though, that there's a LOT of room in the "cracks" in the lore. I know this because I write AE stories there a lot, and have run other people's stories that expand on what we already have. Getting good stuff that players have created into the actual game is not an automatic task, though. That said, there's a whole lot of good-to-excellent player content already developed that could fit right in the current world (and no worse than some of the more, um, unimaginative legacy content). However, I'm not sure it'd be enough to complete with the TF train that forms the story of many, many characters these days. I mean, you can start in AP with Habashy-Fields/Costel-Thiery and get a good dose of story there, then hit KR for Stockwell/Eagle Eye. Those are decent quality openers that are ignored by teams. 

 

On the whole, though, I think, since the TF train IS the model, we really, really need a revamp of Synapse and Cit. Lordy mamma...such a gd repetitive grind. A dedicated TF for KR might be nice, btw.

 

(Lest I forget - feel like I should throw in a nod to redside here-the quality of Redside Legacy arcs is MUCH better than Blue, but not many are playing them. All of the new HC material is better than most mundane Legacy mishes [as it should be, frankly].)

I feel like I don't get ... is directed the right word? I mean, I feel like I don't get pointed in the direction of the big important stories, or if I do, that those are the ones I skip "reading".

I always go the same route because I enjoy it: Habashy, Twinshot, Sondra whatsername, Aaron thingymajig, Laura whatsername, The matrix guy in Talos, Ray Cooling, all the faultline contacts... then I usually stop playing my character and do another one, heh.

 

BUT I want to know about the big stories. The one that reveals what happened to statesman and the others... where do I start with those? Is there an indication somewhere and I'm just not observant enough to spot it? I would like to know where the "big lore bombs" are. A guide of some kind would be nice.

[Glacier Peak]

31 minutes ago, biostem said:

Two important considerations, possibly the most crucial, are making the game fun no matter what kind of character you play and respecting the players' time.  For the first point, it is important that everybody feels "needed", while also balancing the experience to not favor any particular play style over another.  CoH has always had a problem with "damage being king", but nearly every AT can do good damage *eventually*.  As to my second point, travel powers have always been a tradeoff that greatly enhances this aspect of the game.  ATT, TT, and the various teleporters are another facet of this.  Experienced players know how to maximize their actual play time, while minimizing travel or other such "filler".  At the same time, new players may feel the weight to "go go go", instead of doing a bit of street sweeping or play other content that is of their level.  This can undermine any sense of immersion and make the game feel like nothing more than a race to 50.  The same holds true for chasing after those 5 LotG global recharge IOs, capping defense, and so on...

The first part in your post had me thinking back nearly twenty years ago - I can't remember what type of character I made, maybe a Blaster? What I can remember is the feeling of exhilaration and glee when I finally unlocked Hover, not even Fly, but Hover! I was able to move my character vertically, albeit slower than can be experienced now a days - BUT IT WAS FUN! 

 

I really appreciate your point about the damage meta and the utility of travel powers - travel powers are what kept me in the subscription loop honestly. It took so long to unlock one, Level 14 back then when leveling was way slower, that the power felt dramatic when I first toggled it on (never took Teleport back then lol). It had lots of trade offs sure, endurance drain was insane and it didn't have additional benefits like we see on Homecoming regarding secondary power (Speed Phase, Vertical Leap, Afterburner, Double Jump, etc) or Travel Invention Origin sets with uniques. Heck, find me someone today who thinks Fly with Afterburner is slow and I'll find you 5 people who cheered with joy when they could float over the pits of Trolls and Igneous in the Hollows or even the original Faultline zone. 

 

Anyways, all that nostalgia to say I appreciate your response and agree with your characterization of how a change can alter player perceptions in unintended ways. 

[Glacier Peak]

13 minutes ago, Herotu said:

I feel like I don't get ... is directed the right word? I mean, I feel like I don't get pointed in the direction of the big important stories, or if I do, that those are the ones I skip "reading".

I always go the same route because I enjoy it: Habashy, Twinshot, Sondra whatsername, Aaron thingymajig, Laura whatsername, The matrix guy in Talos, Ray Cooling, all the faultline contacts... then I usually stop playing my character and do another one, heh.

 

BUT I want to know about the big stories. The one that reveals what happened to statesman and the others... where do I start with those? Is there an indication somewhere and I'm just not observant enough to spot it? I would like to know where the "big lore bombs" are. A guide of some kind would be nice.

I can say after playing through all the content in this game that it's not a tidy or neat path through a defined story arc that spans the whole game. Some stories are one-offs and some don't add to the larger world events. I find the climatic story arcs to be the most memorable, like the Grandville villain arcs are some of the best in the whole game. They can't all be like that though, and I don't think they should be either or else I wouldn't enjoy it as much. Hey at least we don't have to pay for those Signature Story Arcs, right? Then again, some of the writing in other arcs (Laura Lockhart spoilers!) makes me feel like someone should've been paid!

[Glacier Peak]

1 hour ago, A Cat said:

One thing for me is that story lines are not easily experienced in teams in this game IMO. Solo let's you have time to read the stuff, and window dialogue isn't shown to non-team leaders. I do like experiencing the good story lines in this game personally. I assume the original devs learned of this short coming and had more cutscenes and in game dialogue to bring the story to the non-leaders. There are a lot of great and drama filled arcs in this game. I think it would be great if it were easier to experience these as a team. 

If this is Croatoa that Cranebump is talking about, then there are some other real doozys in those arcs too. It is a shame since it is a cool area and pretty cool story. Some of those are the most fun you can have short of being tied to a chair in a psychopath's basement with jumper cables on your nads. 

Wow that first part is really true now that I think about it - team story telling has been absent in my mind for a while. I think Frostfire's Hollows arc was the last time I remember really seeing a team driven, perhaps through coincidence more than design choice, that teams would form specifically to finish it together. 

[UltraAlt]

On 8/13/2023 at 10:26 AM, Glacier Peak said:

It's also nice to just turn off all the fancy whistles and walk (👴which is still faster than legacy days before Fitness was inherent). Crank up the music in the background to higher than 3% (if you are feeling squirrelly and don't mind ear bleed 😀) and experience the world.

 

THE CITY sure seemed a lot bigger back then, didn't it?!

 

On 8/13/2023 at 10:26 AM, Glacier Peak said:

How would you balance game development for a player base who has both experienced the game one way since legacy launch and with the new players who through all odds find themselves trying out this super hero MMO?

 

One thing I have seen DEVs do is funneling. This is to get new characters and end-game characters gaming together. 

Those this doesn't go directly to new players, it influences them by allowing them to intact with or around veteran players (I'll use that term "veteran" loosely to mean years instead of days of involvement with THE CITY.) They might not even know that it is going on. They might not even randomly run into it - which they should if it is proper funnelling. 

Some funneling is not helpful to a new player. I think CoH side should go back to the character's origin contact being the starting character and branching off from there (and not allowing to pick other origin contacts from City Hall and Altas). The goal I guess was to funnel new players through Hasherby and Twinshot. I think both those arcs are pretty poor. Twinshot is way too NPC heavy. I understand the move was made to avoid characters from different origins possibly not wanting to team up with players from a different origin.

 

(Honestly, I think one reason that CoH went F2P was to get more players into the game for subscribers to interact with. Another, of course, was the nickel-and-diming of F2P players that spilled over into affecting subscribers as well. Yet another nail in the coffin for me when it came to my subscription and continued game play of CoH that terminated almost exactly a year before the Sunset.)

 

Adding new power sets was a way to get veteran players to make new characters to level, so they would interact with other low-level characters.

Veteran players still have a great advantage over new players making a new character on a ton of different levels, but it is an entirely different dynamic than a level 3 character running on a level 50 team or teaming with a level 50 on a level 3 team.

Of course, at this point, it seems that heading on half the player-base only plays their 50's and many simply power-level to 50 and bypass the game itself in order to get to the end-game. (This is based on using the /search function and seeing the levels the characters in-game over-time, at different times of days, and on multiple servers - of course, the /search function doesn't show me who is hidden).

 

I'm sure to a new player that the character creation system is a bit overwhelming.

I'm unsure how to soften this blow and/or if it is worth the effort to do so.

 

To a large extent, the new player experience comes from interaction with other players in THE CITY. It's an MMO. We know that a large number of players head to the most populated server because they want to team up with other players. By playing on the most populated server, they feel that the likelihood of getting on a team is more likely when there is a higher population.

Why go for the extra potential lag if you want to solo? If you are going to solo, you might as well play on one of the lower population servers. That is unless you need to use the /help channel and that is the negative side of a low population server.

However, you are also more likely to run into trolls/trouble-makers on the /help channel (and elsewhere) on the most populated server. 

 

If the goal is to bring more new players to THE CITY, then YouTube/Twitch, etc. video guides and gameplay (at lower levels) generated by players would not only give exposure for the game, but also help explain the basics of the game and its gameplay. 

 

On 8/13/2023 at 10:26 AM, Glacier Peak said:

How would you balance game development for a player base who has both experienced the game one way since legacy launch and with the new players who through all odds find themselves trying out this super hero MMO?

 

And, to round it out, I think you say it yourself. 

 

On 8/13/2023 at 10:26 AM, Glacier Peak said:

a player base who has both experienced the game one way since legacy

versus

On 8/13/2023 at 10:26 AM, Glacier Peak said:

new players who through all odds find themselves trying out this super hero MMO

 

There are far more players playing City of Heroes that played it before the Sunset then there are those that "through all odds" stumbled into the game.

This isn't to say that the new player experience isn't important.

it is to say that the balance of game development should be focused first on what interests the DEVs and second what would have an impact to the largest demographic that is playing (and I know I will be outside of the demographic quite often as I don't play the end-game)

 

Edited August 15, 2023 by UltraAlt
changes in bold (minor rewording)

[Clave Dark 5]

9 hours ago, cranebump said:

There's a LOT of old content that just doesn't get played at all anymore ... However, I'm not sure it'd be enough to complete with the TF train that forms the story of many, many characters these days.

 

I think that's part of the problem right there: players can't speed run, farm, or get the highest rewards from "the other stuff," so few people bother with it.

[A Cat]

3 minutes ago, Clave Dark 5 said:

I think that's part of the problem right there: players can't speed run, farm, or get the highest rewards from "the other stuff," so few people bother with it.

That, and people not taking the initiative to lead teams for these types of content. I know since I'm one of those guys with no initiative, lol. This has inspired me though. I'll go lead a Laura Lockhart or something. If I had friends or an SG a longer arc like the Wards, Praetoria, or DA would be cool. 

[Sanguinesun]

On 8/13/2023 at 11:26 PM, Glacier Peak said:

 How would you balance game development for a player base who has both experienced the game one way since legacy launch and with the new players who through all odds find themselves trying out this super hero MMO?

 

About the same as HC has already done though with caveats.

 

A city originally urban planned in 1950's has evolved and changed and expanded to where it is now in the 2020's.  It is then challenged with supporters and dissenters for various neighborhood gentrification in the past and even now. 

 

How do you accommodate the wants of all?  Answer not much more than now unless there's intent to ignore one or more or all segments of the community.

 

That's essentially what you're asking perhaps. 

 

We very much then can be agnostic and armchair about this because ultimately we've no extensive say in those decisions.  Unlike a live for profit studio beholden to subscriptions/profits, share holders, player base(per their keeping the lights on for the studio), the HC team isn't really. People will argue donations but the team's always had a management plan/exit strategy in place for potential changes in donations so its not a factor. This isnt to say that HC ignores the players and develop in a vaccum of sorts.  They just tend to also be susceptible to how various business oriented studios have found themselves in the throes of development and evolution of things.

 

One could present a whole talk at the GDC about the differences between a for profit game transitioned to a community run game and how features/meta/social attitudes and more affect or improve or are hamstringed by decisions made to transition various features of the game built in from the for profit model. (cite me if someone uses this in a future GDC or I will grr at you... :P)

 

With that said, I think in part that HC isn't trying to chase player numbers and being more inviting intentionally.  If it was, there'd be much more significant changes to what it is now.   The current conditions reflect accommodations made to try to filter/groom the player base that it has and potentially may have. Is that good? Is that bad? Depends.  Over the last 4 months I've talked to and assisted numerous returnees and new players alike.  There are common denominators between them all regarding things they've found frustrating with play on HC servers.  Most of it revolves around bringing preconceived notions and expectations(either from live days for returnees or other games from new people) coupled with disparities (knowledge gaps with much of the game) and a sense of over complications of play of the game.  This can be sub categorized into leveling, influence earning, character optimization, social dynamics (be it teaming or soloing), etc.

 

Basically nothing we dont see all the time debated endlessly on the forums here or in gen chat in game.

 

Snarky also  mentioned with his leveling method of what I think is pretty much the cultural norm for leveling now for years on HC.  And like he iterated later, nothing wrong with it as letting people level as they wish and are happy doing is important. I only counter that I dont see a disservice in learning to play in that way if its what they enjoy doing. If they dont (and some recent returnees/new people I've talked with instead prefer to solo) that's their choice and nothing wrong with that either.  Choices in my opinion are good.  Some disagree. Some segments over the years have expressed that they want to remove choices because they want to gate/filter the community due to what amounts to elitist reasons... and to those folks I say, well, they pretty much just need to stick to playing villains as they're certainly not heroes :P. 

 

1 hour ago, Glacier Peak said:

Wow that first part is really true now that I think about it - team story telling has been absent in my mind for a while. I think Frostfire's Hollows arc was the last time I remember really seeing a team driven, perhaps through coincidence more than design choice, that teams would form specifically to finish it together. 

 

Id also counter that there can become a desensitization to story lines if one is also soloing as well as someone expressed with sentiments on the first page of the same ole same ole with mission objectives/maps etc.   Sometimes folks just arent in it for the story at times, they're just in it for the cathartic enjoyment of killing/arresting/blasting/smacking away at stuff.   The absent nature of things may be due to that.    Sort of like someone repeat playing diablo and just not giving much thought into the quests and just wanting to progress through the leveling.

 

 

 

59 minutes ago, A Cat said:

That, and people not taking the initiative to lead teams for these types of content. I know since I'm one of those guys with no initiative, lol. This has inspired me though. I'll go lead a Laura Lockhart or something. If I had friends or an SG a longer arc like the Wards, Praetoria, or DA would be cool. 

 

I think its not exactly fair to say its due to not wantint to take initiative.  Some people have anxiety over leading teams but are happy to be team contributors or a co-pilot.  Also players new/returnees unfamiliar with things can get quickly discouraged leading teams to then prefer not to when teams fall into issues or fall apart.   Running teams thus isn't necessarily easy for everyone because its not just an important game play role but can be a precarious social construct in game.   

 

[Glacier Peak]

23 minutes ago, Sanguinesun said:

 

About the same as HC has already done though with caveats.

 

A city originally urban planned in 1950's has evolved and changed and expanded to where it is now in the 2020's.  It is then challenged with supporters and dissenters for various neighborhood gentrification in the past and even now. 

 

How do you accommodate the wants of all?  Answer not much more than now unless there's intent to ignore one or more or all segments of the community.

 

That's essentially what you're asking perhaps. 

 

We very much then can be agnostic and armchair about this because ultimately we've no extensive say in those decisions.  Unlike a live for profit studio beholden to subscriptions/profits, share holders, player base(per their keeping the lights on for the studio), the HC team isn't really. People will argue donations but the team's always had a management plan/exit strategy in place for potential changes in donations so its not a factor. This isnt to say that HC ignores the players and develop in a vaccum of sorts.  They just tend to also be susceptible to how various business oriented studios have found themselves in the throes of development and evolution of things.

 

One could present a whole talk at the GDC about the differences between a for profit game transitioned to a community run game and how features/meta/social attitudes and more affect or improve or are hamstringed by decisions made to transition various features of the game built in from the for profit model. (cite me if someone uses this in a future GDC or I will grr at you... :P)

 

With that said, I think in part that HC isn't trying to chase player numbers and being more inviting intentionally.  If it was, there'd be much more significant changes to what it is now.   The current conditions reflect accommodations made to try to filter/groom the player base that it has and potentially may have. Is that good? Is that bad? Depends.  Over the last 4 months I've talked to and assisted numerous returnees and new players alike.  There are common denominators between them all regarding things they've found frustrating with play on HC servers.  Most of it revolves around bringing preconceived notions and expectations(either from live days for returnees or other games from new people) coupled with disparities (knowledge gaps with much of the game) and a sense of over complications of play of the game.  This can be sub categorized into leveling, influence earning, character optimization, social dynamics (be it teaming or soloing), etc.

 

Basically nothing we dont see all the time debated endlessly on the forums here or in gen chat in game.

 

Snarky also  mentioned with his leveling method of what I think is pretty much the cultural norm for leveling now for years on HC.  And like he iterated later, nothing wrong with it as letting people level as they wish and are happy doing is important. I only counter that I dont see a disservice in learning to play in that way if its what they enjoy doing. If they dont (and some recent returnees/new people I've talked with instead prefer to solo) that's their choice and nothing wrong with that either.  Choices in my opinion are good.  Some disagree. Some segments over the years have expressed that they want to remove choices because they want to gate/filter the community due to what amounts to elitist reasons... and to those folks I say, well, they pretty much just need to stick to playing villains as they're certainly not heroes :P. 

 

 

Id also counter that there can become a desensitization to story lines if one is also soloing as well as someone expressed with sentiments on the first page of the same ole same ole with mission objectives/maps etc.   Sometimes folks just arent in it for the story at times, they're just in it for the cathartic enjoyment of killing/arresting/blasting/smacking away at stuff.   The absent nature of things may be due to that.    Sort of like someone repeat playing diablo and just not giving much thought into the quests and just wanting to progress through the leveling.

 

 

 

 

I think its not exactly fair to say its due to not wantint to take initiative.  Some people have anxiety over leading teams but are happy to be team contributors or a co-pilot.  Also players new/returnees unfamiliar with things can get quickly discouraged leading teams to then prefer not to when teams fall into issues or fall apart.   Running teams thus isn't necessarily easy for everyone because its not just an important game play role but can be a precarious social construct in game.   

 

Sanguinesun, that was a terrific write up. You took my question and answered it and then some. I'm starting to see some consistency across posters' replies thus far, and without short changing your verbose response, it makes me think I should post a follow up reply that summarizes these shared points others have made as well. 

[Without_Pause]

17 hours ago, Techwright said:

 

Take the level 1-22 slog for example.

Try 35-50. My auto default is doing the one newer contact's arc to hit 4. Run a DFB with a team so I can go to the Hollows, pound out the first two contacts in the Hollows solo while teaming for Frostfire at +2, being level 13, and no 2x XP booster, and that can be done in a night's session. Next night I go do the Posi TF. I'm like level 17 already. I can do the Midnighter's arc or some other arc and ding 20+ in no time if I'm teaming. On the opposite end, I ran a team for Tina's arc at +2, went through 9-10 missions, and got all of 1.5 levels. WTF is this 1-22 slog?

 

I would be insanely okay if 2x XP boosters never existed. I would also be all sorts of fine if AE was locked out until a player dinged 50. Lets be honest, vets know how to get to 50 asap without AE anyway. So no, this is not some terrible restriction for vets of the game.

 

What honestly blows me away is the lack of in depth guides for power sets. This game is old. There is no sticky in each of the AT sections or the guides section where a player can come in and look at a run down of each of the powersets and come away with a solid idea about about the powerset and ideas for slotting. We have players with hundreds of characters. Some of them have 100+ characters at 50. Even on the 'lower' end having 40+ characters isn't that out of the question and that's just on Homecoming. Odds are that player had just as many on Live. And yet, where are the guides to the things we are playing? That's what new players need. In the history of the game the Scrapper forum has been one of the most active, and yet as of late it feels like there might be one post in a week. Fine, all of the pylons have been soloed. Trapdoor is seeking retirement, but where are the guides?

 

And yes, the kettle being black, I am currently waiting on some things to happen in my life so I have more time to sit down and write out some guides to some of the things I have played. 

 

[Hedgefund]

Today, with SOs, there is no 1-22 "slog".  I'm sure SOs are out of reach to a new player that doesn't know alternate means of inf generation but my latest lowbie blew through those levels, fighting +2 AVs in Faultline, for example.  I wasn't even expecting to be able to do that but SOs just are a huge advantage at low levels.

[Herotu]

It's ironic to see so many people lamenting the powercreep they've (we've) all asked for/taken advantage of.

 

More speed! More enhancements to speed! Athletic speed on top of that!

 

Teleporters, convenience items and special routes (through pvp, pocket d etc) to allow us to go from one place to another very quickly.

 

Now the City feels small. And we reminisce about the days when it was challenging to bypass groups of mobs. Do we realise now that the journey was part of the fun?

[ZemX]

44 minutes ago, Herotu said:

It's ironic to see so many people lamenting the powercreep they've (we've) all asked for/taken advantage of.

 

It's not "so many people" really.

 

45 minutes ago, Herotu said:

Do we realise now that the journey was part of the fun?

 

I don't remember it being fun.  It's not like the devs of yore looked out upon a playerbase having all sorts of fun between mission doors and then decided to put a stop to it.  We asked for this stuff.  We got it.  And frankly most people seem pretty damn happy with it.  But sure, if you make a thread on the forums asking whose not happy with all the changes since the good old days... I am hardly surprised to see some folks chime in.

[Herotu]

39 minutes ago, ZemX said:

 

It's not "so many people" really.

 

 

[..]  And frankly most people seem pretty damn happy with it. 

Who knows what the numbers are? Certainly not me.

 

 

 

Or you.