Why was Statesman killed off again?

[lemming]

2 hours ago, srmalloy said:

And Hero Games is still selling the Hero Designer program (and the source code).

Totally different code base.  The newer one does both 5th edition & 6th edition and is portable over many platforms.

The old one, Hero Maker, you can run via dosbox and other emulators.

[UltraAlt]

2 hours ago, Herotu said:

And RuneQuest, too, by the looks of things!

 

... and Pathfinder Shadow In the Sky. Whatever that is.

 

I just found some shots on the internet.

I didn't bother taking photos of my copies and uploading them. Mine are pretty dog-eared and I think I have duct tape on the original box. 

 

Edited November 23, 2023 by UltraAlt

[lemming]

3 hours ago, UltraAlt said:

 

I have the original box set which I bought as as soon as I saw it on the shelf that the local gaming store, and, yeah, that was in 1981.

It wasn't a PC (personal computer) game. It was an old school RPG played with pencil and paper.

The two individual rules supplements which came out separately as well.

Yep.  I was talking specifically the PC game that was being worked on, and the character creator that came out of it.

I used to have every supplement, etc... for Hero thru the end of 4th edition. (Decent number of later supplements, just didn't go full complete...)

I hung out with the Hero Software folk who had introduced me to Champions in 1981.

 

I have the 4th hardbound of Champions RPG with the George Perez cover. First Printing copy from August 1989.

Maybe the disc is around here somewhere. I don't think I ever bothered putting it into a computer.

 

I thought that the edition/printing that I saw that had a disc said something on the cover about the disc being included, but I can't find image of that.

I know a picked up a copy and looked at it, and the disc was attached inside the front or back cover.

I don't see a place there where a disc would have been attached in the copy that I have.

I'm wondering if they didn't add the disc in another printing of the same edition of the game.

I can't even find anything about the disc online for any more research on it.

 

There was the first printing of the BBB (which had some binding issues from what I recall), a second one that held together, and a bit later came the one with the Hero Maker software.  That was the Deluxe version that came out a little later.   My memory is spotty, but the SW at the internet archive says 1993.

[UltraAlt]

3 hours ago, srmalloy said:

The Champions computer game, from the Games That Weren't website.

 

Ah, the nonexistent side-scrolling game that was never released

 

3 hours ago, srmalloy said:

And Hero Games is still selling the Hero Designer program (and the source code).

 

"HERO Designer is the character creation software for the HERO System. Including full support for both HERO System 5th Edition and HERO System 6th Edition rulesets."

 

So expensive character creation software for the not-so-great editions.

 

 

 

Edited November 23, 2023 by UltraAlt
and not proofreading before posting while trying to post while others on the team are afk bio isn't helping any

[Snarky]

They killed Statesman again?   Well, in game if you kill a boss once you better grab a punchcard.  That fight is gonna get familiar

[UltraAlt]

37 minutes ago, lemming said:

There was the first printing of the BBB (which had some binding issues from what I recall), a second one that held together, and a bit later came the one with the Hero Maker software.  That was the Deluxe version that came out a little later.   My memory is spotty, but the SW at the internet archive says 1993.

 

Ah, there it is!
I thought I remembered it saying on the cover!

It even says "deluxe"!

 

 

[Herotu]

Spoiler

I don't know how it happens, I read on here something about Darren Wade, but presumably the player-villains get to kill statesman?

 

On 11/16/2023 at 8:03 PM, Scarlet Shocker said:

What was utterly reprehensible was killing off Sister Psyche 

Spoiler

They killed off Sister Psyche? I wondered why Penny Yin was there.. 

That's some world-class bullshit, right there! The devs were idiots. No wonder the game died. This needs retcon ASAP.

 

Surely fixing this whole sorry story is something that should be a priority? Or are we in a situation where there's a revolving door in the story department and nobody sticks around long enough to become an expert? No criticism here, I know that's something that happens: I'm just curious.

[Scarlet Shocker]

7 hours ago, Herotu said:

  Reveal hidden contents

I don't know how it happens, I read on here something about Darren Wade, but presumably the player-villains get to kill statesman?

 

  Reveal hidden contents

They killed off Sister Psyche? I wondered why Penny Yin was there.. 

That's some world-class bullshit, right there! The devs were idiots. No wonder the game died. This needs retcon ASAP.

 

Surely fixing this whole sorry story is something that should be a priority? Or are we in a situation where there's a revolving door in the story department and nobody sticks around long enough to become an expert? No criticism here, I know that's something that happens: I'm just curious.

 

Bit harsh, and entirely wrong about the game dying.

 

I'd suggest that a retcon might cause more problems than it solves. One of the good things about superhero comics is that people are never dead for long. It is entirely possible that if the will is there, Sister P might come back and become stronger than ever. We've already seen it with War Witch and Numina (but that's sketchy, given she was a player creation and is a ghost.)

 

I would suggest that better than a retcon she should be revived in an epic arc that allows her to return and sit slighly above and to the left of the main signature characters as a "guiding light" for future content. Perhaps her deaths (yes, that's actually plural) will give her some prescient insight into how to keep the city safe forever.

[pawstruck]

Yo lore guys: What's the story with death in this game anyway, especially with regard to incarnates? I know there's the "mediport" thing, but then how does anybody die forever?

[Darmian]

34 minutes ago, pawstruck said:

Yo lore guys: What's the story with death in this game anyway, especially with regard to incarnates? I know there's the "mediport" thing, but then how does anybody die forever?

Only player characters are guaranteed to have mediporters. Anyone else may have them. They may not. And even that fact forms part of a story arc.

[OldSchool SC Fight Club]

5 hours ago, pawstruck said:

Yo lore guys: What's the story with death in this game anyway, especially with regard to incarnates? I know there's the "mediport" thing, but then how does anybody die forever?

I thought that the first comic that came out had Arachnos or someone who disabled the mediporters and then assaulted Paragon City. Correct me if I'm wrong? So, it IS possible to be killed in this universe other than by plot only.

Edited November 25, 2023 by OldSchool SC Fight Club

[Snarky]

[biostem]

Four words:  Gameplay and story segregation.

[Herotu]

13 hours ago, Darmian said:

Only player characters are guaranteed to have mediporters. Anyone else may have them. They may not. And even that fact forms part of a story arc.

I think it's multiple arcs, but I know the Ray Cooling one in Talos Island - and it's a great arc, if anybody's looking for it.

[Skyhawke]

I recall it being Darrin Wade having used the same spell that was used for Imperius to die to kill Statesman. Stands to reason that it'd block any mediport tech. Also, it happens in the ruins of Cimmeroa...waaaaaaay far away from Paragon's mediport system. As for why States couldn't be resurrected? Aren't his powers returned to the well unless someone else claims them before he can be revived? Since Wade claimed them right away, that'd pretty much kibosh any attempt to rez the old boy. This is all from memory, so correct me if I'm wrong.

[Kaika]

32 minutes ago, Skyhawke said:

I recall it being Darrin Wade having used the same spell that was used for Imperius to die to kill Statesman. Stands to reason that it'd block any mediport tech. Also, it happens in the ruins of Cimmeroa...waaaaaaay far away from Paragon's mediport system. As for why States couldn't be resurrected? Aren't his powers returned to the well unless someone else claims them before he can be revived? Since Wade claimed them right away, that'd pretty much kibosh any attempt to rez the old boy. This is all from memory, so correct me if I'm wrong.

That sounds correct, but to add to that, Statesman was also severely depressed, to the point that when he died in the comics, he refused to be resurrected. Manticore had to literally blow himself up and drag him out of the afterlife with him. Even if you had the capability to res him, he likely wouldn't accept it, dude just wants to rest.

[Psi-bolt]

Regarding Jack Emmert, I don't think that the community hated the guy, we were just frustrated because well, he wasn't honest about what he was doing and he couldn't just move off some very weird views that he had about the game.  It's hard to remember being almost 20 years ago now, but the nerfs in the 2004-2005 ranged leading up to ED were absolutely brutal.  And you know, much of that was needed, but he just needed to say, "we screwed up, we may have to do more, but we'll talk to you and be honest about what we're doing and why."  The thing that made me personally go off on him on the forums was this line, "Concern = small tweak.  Don't worry Regen Scrappers."  And then they proceeded to turn Instant Healing into a very long recharge click and basically permanently changed the set.

 

That led to something that I don't necessarily blame on Statesman alone because the devs stuck to it long after he was gone and that's the infamous "Cottage Rule."  Basically stating that they won't ever change the basic function of a power.  And while I don't blame that on him, I do think that the application of the cottage rule to specific changes in the game was ad hoc and dishonest.  Changing Instant Healing to a click was much more of a change in the essential function of the power IMO than if they had made it another type of defensive toggle.  But with Statesman, he would selectively argue that this or that change wasn't an essential change.

 

Another thing that I absolutely thought he was nuts was that he argued to the end that we didn't need to have the real numbers for what powers did.  Even after they changed it he would comment that he didn't think it was necessary.  And that more than anything was emblematic of my biggest problem with him.  He was a real smart guy, IIRC he studied classics at the University of Chicago.   The Lore of CoH, which I know he had a lot to do with, was outstanding.   But his rigidity really was grating.

 

Sorry for the semi rant.  I have moved on, I promise! 😄

[Zhym]

On 11/21/2023 at 10:09 PM, SwitchFade said:

Because his silly front half helmet deserved to be "retired."

Well, now that you mention it: what does a dude who is totally invulnerable need with a helmet?

[srmalloy]

15 minutes ago, Psi-bolt said:

The thing that made me personally go off on him on the forums was this line, "Concern = small tweak.  Don't worry Regen Scrappers."  And then they proceeded to turn Instant Healing into a very long recharge click and basically permanently changed the set.

That change was what drove me to recycle a level 47 Katana/Regen Scrapper; between the way the entire play of the set changed, and the devs' assertion that their internal testing showed that a Claws/Regen Scrapper could solo +8/x8 content (yes, that's an eight-level bump to opponents), despite bullshit calls from the players (and this was before IOs), leading them to go ahead with all the changes, and only afterwards coming out and admitting that the internal test server they'd used to make this determination didn't have the 'purple patch' incorporated, meaning that their test scrapper was doing roughly 10x the damage and taking 1/10th of the damage that it would on the live servers... but the testing was not redone on a server with the purple patch, and the changes were kept despite the faulty testing.

[lemming]

2 hours ago, Zhym said:

Well, now that you mention it: what does a dude who is totally invulnerable need with a helmet?

lack of pockets elsewhere?

[BrandX]

14 hours ago, Zhym said:

Well, now that you mention it: what does a dude who is totally invulnerable need with a helmet?

 

Style of course.  It was his symbol.  🙂

[tidge]

It is possible to wear Statesman's costume (and his helmet) in a level 20-29 tip mission, as a Rogue in Paragon City (it's a "Hero" mission).

[Snarky]

The shithead needed killing.  That is why. 

[Healix]

...looks at Snarky... (LOL)