Focused Feedback: Arsenal Control

[Dispari]

In a way you're right, Burt. Cryo Freeze Ray and Tranquilizer already existed. Liquid Nitrogen is basically Ice Slick. Cloaking Device is just the Illusion stealth. Flash Bang and Tear Gas are just your typical AoE stun/hold, though AFAIK Tear Gas is the only one with a -DMG. And Gun Drone is just copied from Devices with few changes.

 

Aside from Gun Drone though I don't think that's a problem really. The powers still have some good synergy, and Smoke Canister is reasonably unique. Also as Fup said, it's the first time we've really gotten a good Natural/Tech themed control set.

[SuperPlyx]

Shouldn't a gun powerset have at least one power that shoots bullets? I know it's a control set but you made it a gun.

[Dispari]

I think the idea is it's more of a SWAT/riot control type set. You're shooting teargas and stun grenades, to neutralize large groups of enemies that might be powerful metas. You can always play a Dom and pair it with a set that does just shoot bullets.

[Psi-bolt]

I would like to echo swapping the Tier 3 and Tier 2 powers so that Controllers don't find themselves locked into having no attacks.    Tranquilizer doesn't appear to be applying its sleep.   I've more testing to do, but seems like a fun set.  I would use a different model for the gun drone if there's an appropriate one out there.  

[Sovera]

22 hours ago, Vinceq98 said:

One thing I just want to add is that the devs are just so timid with power scaling of these new sets. I mean I get they don't want to make the newest power set the meta but my god it's like they make sure they are always middle or even below average in terms of damage potential. You spent so much time and love designing and creating new power sets only for players to outright ignore them and continue on playing the sets the original devs made. I truly think they need to make these new sets at bare minimum A tier if not S tier when they come out. I rarely see storm blasters or symphony controllers. Or sonic assault dominators. They were built once only to be shelved and forgotten 😭

 

I have brought this up in the past almost verbatim. I actually had another long post already typed in the epic AT feedback thread and then looked at it and deleted instead of posting because it was just reiterating what I had already said in the past.

 

It is a design philosophy of the current devs and not something that can be tuned up or down. But at the risk of repeating myself, so much time and effort and coding that ends being effectively wasted because in the end no one touches those sets since they are balanced to the point of becoming milquetoast.

 

I feel that there is a divide because tune ups like Fire Melee were a resounding success but then when we pointed out how Storm Blast was mediocre and some QoL was needed we were told that 'not all sets are meant to be top tier'. My brother in christ, you're making this from scratch, it CAN be top tier so that people will decide based on aesthetics and theme instead of 'this hits harder'.

[Rand0lk]

Arsenal/Traps troller it's so fun it's not even fun. Control tools are everywhere, proc are flying and the new Temp Bomb is soooo satisfying when it goes KABOOM.

[BurtHutt]

57 minutes ago, SuperPlyx said:

Shouldn't a gun powerset have at least one power that shoots bullets? I know it's a control set but you made it a gun.

I was thinking this myself...from a concept/theme perspective...it's a really odd bunch of powers for a gun set.

 

I also hope this set wasn't made to address the origin concern about natural etc toons not having a control ability etc?

 

Anyway, I'll definitely try it but I'm not feeling wowed so far. 

[High_Beam]

11 hours ago, Frosticus said:

Gun Drone: this is a ridiculously OP pet for one specific purpose. AV solo'ing. A single pet res IO and it is 90% res (all). I've shown what you can do with stoney+spirit ward and he is no where near as robust as this thing.

ZOMG I am totally putting a ring on Gun Drone's finger.

 

Again on the ARS/ARS Dominator.  Testing in Brickstown at level 30 with regular IOs in the slots.  Solos real well, taking +3 mobs well.  Recharge seems balanced on the powers and was able to get myself out of a couple "punching way above my weight class" jams +5 with layered application of powers and gun drone; didn't have to run away (not saying it wasn't close).  But Gun Drone, yeah its effing phenom.

 

The Sleep pulse on Sleep Grenade is frequent enough so even when I am putting the 12 gauge on a group or the Gun drone is spraying, the sleepers are going back to sleep.

 

Only used Dom once and that was just to refresh the blue bar.  Testing continues though I al probably gonna switch back tot he Crontroller side to see how that works at higher levels.

Edited January 21 by High_Beam

[Psyonico]

It might be interesting to see Beanbag instead of Tranquilizer.  I personally don't have any problems with Tranquilizer, it has its place, but it just seems a bit of an odd power to be shooting out of a gun.

[gameboy1234]

13 hours ago, Frosticus said:

Smoke: ok I'm not sure what to think about this power. The recharge is really short (it is up every 15 seconds easily) and it handles all the minions/luts. It doesn't alert and it lets you waltz by most spawns if you want, or keep a second spawn on pause.

 

I think this is the idea.  Night Widows get the same combo.  Almost invisibility in Mask Presence, and then Smoke Grenade to let the player slip past spawns if needed.  Keeping a second spawn on pause is also something I've done, and it can be handy.  The -To-Hit is useful on teams as it effectively adds to defense.

 

It's not meant to be a world-beating power, it's a little bit of role-play and a convenience that some players might prefer.  It's skippable if you don't want that convenience.  That's about it.

 

[Exxar]

Why can't Sleep Grenade and Smoke Canister overpower?

[Riverdusk]

9 hours ago, Voltak said:

I am going to disagree with the vast majority of players on this one. 

The AoE sleep is good, and it is useful.   This is especially true in hard mode content, and it is also true in cases of ambushes, and it is also true when somehow somewhere more aggro has been engaged than you might want and your other instruments are just not enough.  
This is also good when soloing 2 or more AVs, and if given the chance of a single target or multiple target sleep, I would always pick the AoE, unless it is Mind Control, in that case I recommend both since dropping the useless TK is a given. 


 

 

I like 'reapplying' sleeps and it does some other things so have no problem with the actual power and would most likely take it myself.  I just don't want to have to take it level 1.  And tranquilizer looks terrible, so I'd have to take the 45 second power at level 1 as things stand now.   

 

And on that one, Tranq should at least do as much damage as the ST immobilizes do from the other sets as it kind of fills in for them, imo.  Even if you have to up its recharge to 6 seconds like mesmerize, would make it more worthwhile. 

Edited January 21 by Riverdusk

[LastHumanSoldier]

 

Moved to Arsenal Assault Focused Thread.

 

Edited January 21 by LastHumanSoldier

[brass_eagle]

20 minutes ago, Exxar said:

Why can't Sleep Grenade and Smoke Canister overpower?

 

They are pseudo pet / patches. Those historically can't inherit Overpower or Domination (see Static Field in Electric Control).

 

Good news is they can stack with themselves, confusing / sleeping a boss when two applications overlap.

Edited January 21 by brass_eagle

[brass_eagle]

Just my two cents. I adore this set. There are bugs, as pointed out. But the set is a blast to play. I feel like I have tools for every option, every scenario. Yes, some thing are copy / standard, but there is uniqueness here without a "stack building" mechanic or gimmick. Though I would like to see a new model for the gun drone. The pet is great, but that thing has been ugly since day one.

 

This is a jack-of-all-trades set. All aspects of the set are not average/sub-par like normal jack of trades, but good (subjectively) at their intended purpose. You can argue all day long about the Sleep mez in general being useless and don't want it in the set, but this set does sleep very good. Going to love a Arsenal/TA on live!

 

edited to add -- Great job team on this set. Didn't think I'd like a weapon-control-thing based on concept, but this changed my mind.

Edited January 21 by brass_eagle

[Exxar]

The individual abilities in the set are not a problem; the problem is the set is full of soft controls, has two abilities which do not overpower or dominate, and has no short-recharge AoE immobilize for setting up containment. Each of these on its own is not the end of the world, but taken together, make this one of the bottom tier sets.

[High_Beam]

43 minutes ago, Exxar said:

The individual abilities in the set are not a problem; the problem is the set is full of soft controls, has two abilities which do not overpower or dominate, and has no short-recharge AoE immobilize for setting up containment. Each of these on its own is not the end of the world, but taken together, make this one of the bottom tier sets.

These are valid points.

 

Still Fun.

 

Except for the barrel glow from Cryo Freeze Ray.  Ick.

Edited January 21 by High_Beam
Spelling.

[brass_eagle]

1 hour ago, Exxar said:

The individual abilities in the set are not a problem; the problem is the set is full of soft controls, has two abilities which do not overpower or dominate, and has no short-recharge AoE immobilize for setting up containment. Each of these on its own is not the end of the world, but taken together, make this one of the bottom tier sets.

 

Valid points. I'm of the mind not every set needs that AoE immobilize. We just differ there. I do agree there is a fair amouint of soft control. It could use some 'umph' against harder targets. I'm also of the mind the control sets are held back by old formulas recharge/durations/effects. "All need a 4 minute-recharge-AoE hold in this spot (when nukes often do an AoE stun or hold)", and a "single target hold in this spot." But that may be larger than here. However, I think this is getting close to feedback on feedback. So I'll stop here.

Edited January 21 by brass_eagle

[Frosticus]

I've played the set (Dom) a decent amount now.

If you look in my sig there is a link for my earth/psi and the stupid things that build has done. To be clear, I could do all of those things again (and maybe more) with an arsenal dom. Which I can't say for any other primary, not by a long shot. So take that as you will.

 

That said, I'm having a hard time reconciling a ground up set that has so little interaction with the inherents of the AT's it is designed for. Think of a brand new scrapper set that has barely any powers that crit!

 

This set has 4 powers that benefit from domination. That is now the lowest of any set in the game. Illusion has 5 and was specifically altered for doms because it didn't have enough powers that worked with domination. 

 

So regardless of the current performance of this set (I think there are some strong combos for both ATs) the design direction runs counter to recent things like the illusion port, shadowfield and the changes to arctic air. 

 

 

[High_Beam]

6 hours ago, BurtHutt said:

-It seems very odd a rifled-based set is being used for control ATs...very odd.

PPD Equalizers, Arachnos Huntsmen, Longbow Nullifiers and Spec-Ops, Malta Group just to name a few in game who use suppression rounds from guns.  Firing target suppression rounds from a rifle-like weapon is not only a no brainier but the norm.  With the exception of the ports of tranq and cryo freeze ray (and its terrible lingering muzzle glow) it's awesome.  People have asked for grenades or grenade launchers and now we have them . . .

 

Military M32 MSGL

FN 303

 

By the way, I got to shoot cans from the M32 when I was in the navy for SSDF school, fun as hell, almost as fun as firing Thumper and a Ma-Deuce.  Tingles.

Edited January 21 by High_Beam
Added a little Sea Story :)

[Dispari]

18 minutes ago, Frosticus said:

This set has 4 powers that benefit from domination. That is now the lowest of any set in the game. Illusion has 5 and was specifically altered for doms because it didn't have enough powers that worked with domination. 

Really good points here. And... not to keep saying it, but what would help fix this problem for both ATs would be an AoE immobilize.

[golstat2003]

6 hours ago, Rand0lk said:

Arsenal/Traps troller it's so fun it's not even fun. Control tools are everywhere, proc are flying and the new Temp Bomb is soooo satisfying when it goes KABOOM.

 

Good lord, I did not even think of this combo and the madness that must ensure. Welp guess ai got even more new stuff to play soon. LOL

[MagicalAct]

Seriously, not every set needs an AoE immobilize. Just buff up the numbers a bit. I'd hate for it to lose some of its' uniqueness just for "an easy fix".

[Cyclone Jack]

As has been stated Tranquilizer almost never applies a Sleep, and when it does apply a Sleep, it doesn't do damage.  Additionally, I feel that the damage should be increased to match the Tier 1 Immobilize powers.

 

Sleep Grenade as a Tier 1 power feels horrible with a 45s recharge.  If this is going to stay as a 45s Recharge, then it needs to be moved up to the 4th or 5th power in the set.  Additionally, Sleep Grenade shows that it is a long sleep, but that does not seem to be the case.  Instead, it seems to be a fairly short sleep of 3-4 seconds, but re-applies itself if the enemies are within the radius.  I'm not sure what the tick rate is, but each time the enemies awaken they get about a second to do whatever they want.  If this is the case, then the Detailed Info should be updated to match.

 

Liquid Nitrogen is basically Ice Slick, but at L6 instead of L12.  The problem here is that a L6 ability with a 90s cooldown feels horrible.  Again, way too many long cooldown abilities early in the set.

 

I would say that the 1st 5 abilities need to be looked at and adjusted in some way.  Generally speaking, four out of the first five abilities should not have a recharge greater than 40 seconds, and most should be <10 seconds.  These first few abilities are be the bread and butter of the powerset, and should be available every fight.

 

Note:  My testing was all done while actually leveling the character, not boosting to high levels, if that matters.

Edited January 22 by Cyclone Jack

[Dispari]

1 hour ago, MagicalAct said:

Seriously, not every set needs an AoE immobilize. Just buff up the numbers a bit. I'd hate for it to lose some of its' uniqueness just for "an easy fix".

 

What numbers being buffed would solve the issues of having to pick a sleep at 1 no matter what, having a power with a 45 second recharge at 1, not being able to make enemies stay in patches that the set revolves around, sleep conflicting with several other powers in the set, and not having enough powers that work with Domination/Containment?