Focused Feedback: Epic / Ancillary Power Pools

[BrandX]

Didn't care for having two cone options when I checked it out on test (Ice Mastery - Scrapper) and honestly, would be nice if Ice and Psionic Mastery got the ST Hold put in, as it's just so useful (imo I know) for Hami Raid and LGTF and now with LGTF getting Hardmode treatment, I would think more handy.

[WitchofDread]

45 minutes ago, Bel said:

I think it would make more sense w/in the logic of their current states to keep soul drain in dark epic for corrs/fenders, and make the soul drain in soul epic become spirit drain instead. Dark epic supports melee play w/ opp gloom and dark consumption, giving it the melee build up makes sense w/in the logic of that set. Soul epic lends itself to ranged play w/ everything but its soul drain. Giving it spirit drain would give players the flexibility to have a clear choice in what they want their playstyle to be: dark epic for melee focused, and soul for ranged.

Agree 100%

[Mezmera]

I tried out the new Dark Mastery pool for dommies. 

 

Pros:

I love the versatility of the shield.

Tar Patch and Darkest Night are both nice powers.

This pool seems more like a support pool which is a decent option.

 

Cons: 

Soul Consumption at a 10 min recharge is not effective to have in the least I'd pass on this power and with it being a supposed keystone power you have to invest 2 powers to get I would like to get more use out of.

If I'm looking to get good aoe damage and endurance fixes there's better pools.

 

 

I'm also none too pleased about the area of effect of dommie Soul Drain going from 15 to 10.  Seems unnecessary to me but there must be reasons...

[ScarySai]

Dominator dark mastery is a great pool potentially, though there is a bit of a problem with tar patch's base CD being 3 minutes.

 

Let's be honest, these CDs get bloody outrageous after a point and make otherwise desirable powers not worth the time of day. Slash the CD on tar patch and a few of the other obvious "WTF" examples of epic recharge scaling.

[ScarySai]

On 11/22/2023 at 10:44 AM, The Curator said:

Dark Mastery > Spirit Drain (replaces Soul Drain)

This power replaces Soul Drain from the Dark Mastery epic pool (Defenders, Corruptors). Soul Drain had ignored the standard epic cooldown penalties while also obtaining a larger than standard radius, making it a superior power to even the AT-specific version. Instead of applying the appropriate penalties (which would have made it a 240s cooldown and 10' radius power), we have taken this opportunity to rebalance it into a unique power (separating itself from Soul Mastery which also has the Soul Drain power) that trades some of its former potency for increased utility.

 

Spirit Drain is a 60' ranged attack that can hit up to 5 targets within a 15' radius. Unlike Soul Drain, these targets can be alive or defeated. The cooldown remains 120s, however the buff duration will now be 15s instead of 30s. This power is still quite potent as it can do the same amount of self-buff as Build Up, while having a longer duration, can be used as an attack from distance, and have a very minor cooldown penalty

 

Summary of details:

• 120s cooldown, 2.37s cast time
• 60 foot range
• 4.8 scale damage buff from 1 target, 8.0 scale damage buff from 5 targets
• 1.2 scale to-hit buff from 1 target, 2.0 scale to-hit buff from 5 targets
• 0.40 scale damage (Negative Energy)

 

Apologies for the double post, but I think this needs to be highlighted.

 

Is this not the perfect example of how outrageous the way epic pool stats are calculated is? 3-10 min cds on powers like tar patch and dark consumption is absolutely outrageous, and this whole change to soul drain essentially screams that it's working around the formula, when the approach to how epic powers are created should simply be revised.

Edited January 21 by ScarySai

[megaericzero]

Thank you guys for consolidating the names of thematically-matched ancillary pools across the archetypes!

[WitchofDread]

22 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

 

Apologies for the double post, but I think this needs to be highlighted.

 

Is this not the perfect example of how outrageous the way epic pool stats are calculated is? 3-10 min cds on powers like tar patch and dark consumption is absolutely outrageous, and this whole change to soul drain essentially screams that it's working around the formula, when the approach to how epic powers are created should simply be revised.

I just hope @Homecoming listen!

[Captain Powerhouse]

2 hours ago, Bel said:

I think it would make more sense w/in the logic of their current states to keep soul drain in dark epic for corrs/fenders, and make the soul drain in soul epic become spirit drain instead. Dark epic supports melee play w/ opp gloom and dark consumption, giving it the melee build up makes sense w/in the logic of that set. Soul epic lends itself to ranged play w/ everything but its soul drain. Giving it spirit drain would give players the flexibility to have a clear choice in what they want their playstyle to be: dark epic for melee focused, and soul for ranged.

 

Although there is merit on this, keep in mind first that the version of Soul Drain Dark Mastery would get is still the exact one that Soul Mastery gets in this patch, not the 120s version.

 

That aside, we opted to implement Spirt Drain on the Dark Mastery pool because its already receiving some changes that are considered negative by some players. When we do changes like these, its always preferable to keep the disruption to a single power, minimizing negative impact on existing character builds. If we proceed as now, only users of Dark Mastery's Soul Drain will have to adapt to the change. If we adopt this request, users of Dark Mastery will have to adapt to a 240s cooldown and smaller radius, while Soul Mastery users would have to adapt to the ranged power. 

 

Hopefully this sheds some light on how we decided to change the Dark Mastery one and not the Soul Mastery version. 

[Onlyasandwich]

On 11/22/2023 at 11:44 AM, The Curator said:

Patron > Leviathan Mastery > Water Spout (Controller/Dominator) Now accepts Pet sets, no longer accepts Ranged AoE Sets

 

I get the logic of this given similarities with Tornado, but it throws a solid wrench in many of my builds as a frequent enjoyer of Leviathan pool. The bonuses and procs available are significantly different. Is there any way we could consider preserving the Ranged aoe opportunity, and adding pet sets?

 

The logic for set application on many powers is sometimes a bit squishy, and ranged aoe is by no means an unintuitive fit for the power.

 

 

 

 

Edited January 21 by Onlyasandwich

[Bel]

2 hours ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

That aside, we opted to implement Spirt Drain on the Dark Mastery pool because its already receiving some changes that are considered negative by some players. When we do changes like these, its always preferable to keep the disruption to a single power, minimizing negative impact on existing character builds. If we proceed as now, only users of Dark Mastery's Soul Drain will have to adapt to the change. If we adopt this request, users of Dark Mastery will have to adapt to a 240s cooldown and smaller radius, while Soul Mastery users would have to adapt to the ranged power. 

I would argue that changing dark epic's soul drain to the longer cd version is a less jarring change than making it into spirit drain. I don't think I'm going too far out on a limb to guess that an overwhelming majority of players who take dark epic, do so to reach the current version of soul drain. And those that take soul epic do so for power boost, and only some take soul drain, just because it's there and they can fit it in their builds. I contend that changing dark's soul drain to the 240s cd but retaining its ability to use PBAoE sets would be far less jarring and much preferred over spirit drain. Spirit drain, while having the familiar 120s cd, would require changing sets and would still make players adjust to a much lower uptime in the buff. Soul users, many of whom probably don't even take that version of soul drain, would have the option of using spirit drain if they so choose but would more than likely be entirely unaffected by the change. 

[Vanden]

On 11/22/2023 at 11:44 AM, The Curator said:

• Patron > Leviathan Mastery > Water Spout (Scrapper/Stalker) - Now accepts Pet sets, no longer accepts Ranged AoE Sets

 

If this goes through, my */Ninjitsu stalker with Leviathan Mastery is never gonna be able to respec again, because he's reliant on Frozen Blast in Water Spout for an AoE defense set bonus.

[twozerofoxtrot]

Is there a chance while we're doing the pass on Epic/Patron pools to look at where KOB is in Blaster's Leviathan Pool? 

 

Having two cones to choose from as a tax before a solid ST Melee seems odd. And incongruous with the ordering of the rest of the Epic pools. Possibly move the stronger of the cones in to KOB's place?

 

Yes, this is just because I want to have a big mean punch on my blasters without having to pick up a cone attack first. It's selfish, I'll admit.

[csr]

14 hours ago, Booper said:

I think that was a bug and an outdated patch note. Please check it in game, but I believe the end cost might have actually been reduced slightly, to 18.98

 

It's 18.98 in game on both Brutes and Tankers.

[csr]

I see some inaccurate patch notes:

 

Controller > Dark Mastery > Dark Blast

Brute > Dark Mastery > Dark Blast

Tanker > Dark Mastery > Dark Blast

 

All of these do -ToHit (as you'd expect), not -ACC.  I double-checked in game just to be sure.

Edited January 21 by csr

[nihilii]

What a list of changes. I'm glad to see new options threatening the supremacy of certain past choices.

 

The one thing I'm iffy about is the ST immobilize standardization. Those are fairly unused powers in the first place, because who wants to trade their native attacks for a ST immobilize at lvl 35+? Faster recharge and lower damage will hurt the few edge cases that made good use of it, like exotic melee builds fitting in Ring of Fire.

It's almost a double whammy because meanwhile, 1) on Tankers and Brutes, Gloom goes from 12s to 16s. Which you might think as a nerf and may very well be in some cases, but from some other builds it will just mean higher proc chance; and 2) on Scrappers and Stalkers there's even more juicy fast snipe options to crush the RoF alternative.

[WitchofDread]

4 hours ago, Bel said:

I would argue that changing dark epic's soul drain to the longer cd version is a less jarring change than making it into spirit drain. I don't think I'm going too far out on a limb to guess that an overwhelming majority of players who take dark epic, do so to reach the current version of soul drain. And those that take soul epic do so for power boost, and only some take soul drain, just because it's there and they can fit it in their builds. I contend that changing dark's soul drain to the 240s cd but retaining its ability to use PBAoE sets would be far less jarring and much preferred over spirit drain. Spirit drain, while having the familiar 120s cd, would require changing sets and would still make players adjust to a much lower uptime in the buff. Soul users, many of whom probably don't even take that version of soul drain, would have the option of using spirit drain if they so choose but would more than likely be entirely unaffected by the change. 

Absolutely this!!

[WitchofDread]

8 hours ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

 

Although there is merit on this, keep in mind first that the version of Soul Drain Dark Mastery would get is still the exact one that Soul Mastery gets in this patch, not the 120s version.

 

That aside, we opted to implement Spirt Drain on the Dark Mastery pool because its already receiving some changes that are considered negative by some players. When we do changes like these, its always preferable to keep the disruption to a single power, minimizing negative impact on existing character builds. If we proceed as now, only users of Dark Mastery's Soul Drain will have to adapt to the change. If we adopt this request, users of Dark Mastery will have to adapt to a 240s cooldown and smaller radius, while Soul Mastery users would have to adapt to the ranged power. 

 

Hopefully this sheds some light on how we decided to change the Dark Mastery one and not the Soul Mastery version. 

 

@Captain Powerhouse better yet, leave it alone! 

 

I and I'm sure many others take dark Mastery soul drain to try get perma soul drain for a consistent damage buff. I, and I'm sure others too use a lot of very useful PBAOE enchantments here that would be in INCREDIBLY jarring to change especially when you rely on them to meet certain goals within your build.

 

The soul version I VERY rarely see people use. Soul Mastery is normal taken for power boost and soul storm!

 

Please just leave soul drain alone. Nobody is asking for these changes.

 

 

[Onlyasandwich]

Regarding soul drain, I'm not sure I agree with why it would need to be standardized to the longer recharge if we kept the functionality as is.

 

I always viewed Soul as the superior epic overall. The tradeoff with dark was that, by investing in at least one "tax" power in addition to the resist, I got a better version of soul drain.

 

Soul on the other hand lets me cherry pick the res shield and pick up soul drain as a happy bonus if I have room. It also provides access to the sometimes build defining power boost.

 

Even the summon in soul is one of the best available in APPs. It seems reasonable to consider the overall power budget in an entire pool rather than just balancing each power within only on its own merit. 

[Reiska]

I suspect the actual core motivation here is "APP Soul Drain should not be better than Dark Melee Soul Drain".  Which I agree with, on principle.

[Blackbird71]

20 hours ago, Indystruck said:

consistency is key

 

Consistency would be not changing names that have been around for quite some time.

[BrandX]

10 minutes ago, Blackbird71 said:

 

Consistency would be not changing names that have been around for quite some time.

 

Honestly, for the name changes, that seems like what many called them regardless of the special name.  "Fire Mastery" over "Flame Mastery" or "Heat Mastery" or "Burning Sensation Mastery"

Either way, I wouldn't care, but it's not a change that would bother me either.

[Arcadio]

The leviathan stacks are very slow/variable to build. In pylon testing I could go through my normal attack chain several times and not be higher than 3 stacks often. Could the chance be made higher or the max stacks be made lower? 

[ScarySai]

On 11/22/2023 at 10:44 AM, The Curator said:

Epic > Earth Mastery > Hurl Boulder (Controller) - Range increased from 40ft to 80ft, Recharge increased from 10s to 16s, Cast Time reduced from 2.5s to 2.0s, endurance cost increased from 11.7 to 18.98

 

I guess now's the time to ask: can earth mast abilities that require feet touching the ground be updated to work while hovering near the ground?

[Britannic]

A little sadge that Laser Beam Eyes from Energy Mastery didn't get a buff, and/or even alternate animation customization options. Kinda feels lacking for such an iconic type power.

Edited January 21 by Britannic

[FupDup]

2 minutes ago, Britannic said:

A little sadge that Laser Beam Eyes from Energy Mastery didn't get a buff, and/or even alternate animation customization options. Kinda feels lacking for such an iconic type power.

That actually appears to have been accounted for given the patch notes for LBE reference all 4 melee ATs: 

 

Epic > Laser Beam Eyes (Brute/Scrapper/Stalker/Tanker) - Power is now auto-hit, but damage inflicted is randomized based on the hit-roll
Epic > Laser Beam Eyes (Brute/Tanker) - Recharge increased from 6s to 8s
Epic > Laser Beam Eyes (Scrapper/Stalker) - Endurance Cost reduced from 8.07575 to 6.5

 

And there's also the bit where Body Mastery is getting renamed to Energy Mastery anyways.