Focused Feedback: Epic / Ancillary Power Pools

[DreadShinobi]

19 hours ago, Flying Code Monkey said:

 

As I recall, the Ancillary sets were originally inaccessible until 41+.

 

Ancillaries were originally introduced before IOs. IOs have drastically warped the implementation of ancillary pools because the main penalties applied to ancillary powers to balance them vs primary/secondary powersets is recharge, damage, and endurance penalties - all of which can be nearly eliminated by IOs or capitalized on with IOs. Using recharge/endurance/damage penalties to balance ancillaries in effect makes them balanced around IOs. 

 

19 hours ago, fiend said:

 

If the torch is being carried along the same path as the original devs, then this is the way to go. Anything else would be an enormous meta shake-up, and HC seems to be trying to keep things pretty close to vanilla, just modernized a little bit. I

 

The double edged sword here is Homecoming is a small volunteer team. This means both, that changes involving significant investments of time or 'enormous shake-ups' are unlikely, but also that we are currently having epic power pools looked at right now and it is unlikely they will be looked at again in a long time. If things are missed here it is unlikely to be revisited after the patch is released, precedence has shown this. Patching the game doesn't owe any favors to previous developers or previous design directions that are outdated.  

 

If powers are just being adjusted to a preexisting damage formula, you could say much of this falls under bug fixes than balance pass, which is what the epic pools sorely need.

 

19 hours ago, fiend said:

 

It'd be pretty far out of the usual if the epic pools weren't "one fine or at least passable power, a situational pick or two, and some obvious always-skips"

 

Powers that are obviously always 'skip this power', 'don't touch this power with a 39 and a half foot pole', and 'we only take this power because it is a prerequisite for tough/weave/rune of protection/soul drain/etc and otherwise i don't even keep it on my power tray' is not good game design. All 5 powers don't need to be amazing powers, but they should all be fine, passable, or situational at a minimum. Powers that are always skipped should be analyzed for how they can be improved.

 

There are typically at least 8 epic power pool options and often I find that for any given character I am really only considering 2 or 3 pools and within those 2 or 3 pools it is only 1-3 powers that I actually want because so many powers have such gutted numbers that they cant find placement in most player's builds. And yes, I am specifically saying that some underperforming powers should be looked at being buffed in ways that breaks the current damage/recharge/endurance formula because they are so bad that nobody takes them. Buff the dust collectors. 

 

Quote

I've been struggling to articulate my response to why most of the significant recharge nerfs seem unjustified.

 

I can appreciate why having a formula for translating powers into epics is useful from a balancing perspective. However, it ignores the power budget available in the pool itself, as well as how these powers fit into the playstyle of the overall build. Attributing set values to how "powerful" something like hoarfrost is compared to a soul drain is pretty tough, but the distinction is there whether we assign it perfectly or not. 

 

One solution is to homogenize them to the point where primary differences are in theme only. This is boring.

 

Another would be too embrace the subjectivity and grapple with questions like:

• Is this power fun and useful in its current form? Do people even bother with it much in its current, pre-nerf state? 
• Does  having access to this power imbalance the class in some way?
• How popular and useful are the other powers in this pool compared to other pools? 

I'm sure these questions are indeed a part of your balancing process in some way, but the impression I get is that the formula is the primary tool in this pass. 

 

Edit: I think @Onlyasandwich is articulating my point better than I am  🙂 I think there is too much weight being put on the formula being used for balance and I think the way @Onlyasandwich highlights how important it is in "grappling with that subjectivity" with those perfectly phrased 3 questions. 

Edited January 30 by DreadShinobi

[fiend]

5 hours ago, DreadShinobi said:

Powers that are obviously always 'skip this power', 'don't touch this power with a 39 and a half foot pole', and 'we only take this power because it is a prerequisite for tough/weave/rune of protection/soul drain/etc and otherwise i don't even keep it on my power tray' is not good game design. All 5 powers don't need to be amazing powers, but they should all be fine, passable, or situational at a minimum. Powers that are always skipped should be analyzed for how they can be improved.

 

There are typically at least 8 epic power pool options and often I find that for any given character I am really only considering 2 or 3 pools and within those 2 or 3 pools it is only 1-3 powers that I actually want because so many powers have such gutted numbers that they cant find placement in most player's builds. And yes, I am specifically saying that some underperforming powers should be looked at being buffed in ways that breaks the current damage/recharge/endurance formula because they are so bad that nobody takes them. Buff the dust collectors. 

 

Don't get me wrong, I totally agree with you. I think it would be really interesting if epic pools had significant impact and were genuinely 'epic' across the board. Or if boxing/kick/etc in fighting were picks someone could seriously consider to make a strong or unconventional fighting-based build that wasn't just for a gimmick/challenge.

 

But going by precedent and general direction, that's not what HC's goals seem to be (obviously I can't know for sure but we kind of have to guess based on patterns), and it's pretty unlikely to change any time soon. I honestly don't think Hasten is a pool power that would have been made in the current environment if it didn't already exist.

Edited January 31 by fiend

[Ice Ember]

The extremely long recharge times and new extended recharge times will make powers absolutely skippable...

 

Really, why bother?

 

I think I am the only person to take Quicksand on my tank and I will be dropping it next respec.

 

Tar Patch will never be considered. Ever.

 

If you want the powers to never be selected then leave the long recharge times.

 

If you want variety then shorter recharge will make different power selections viable for more builds.

 

 

 

 

[scottocamp]

I am profoundly grateful this game still exists for me to enjoy.  And I greatly appreciate the efforts of the extremely talented HC team running this game and moving it forward.

My concern, however, is that the HC team seems focused almost exclusively on “balance” issues.  To a degree that at times feels like they are balancing the life out of the game.  Offering a reward for a balanced team composition, balancing villain groups to make sure all are equally powered, only introducing new power sets or enhancement recipes that are middle of the road, making sure all epic powers are equally lackluster, reducing the effectiveness of oddball powers like Bonfire, and so on.  After every update the game seems a lot more balanced and little bit less fun. 

Adding a bunch of new epic powers that are all largely skippable just so Masterminds can now have access to Dark powers and Scrappers can now have access to Ice powers making everything more symmetrical just seems rather pointless.  Why add powers no one is probably ever going to use?  Symmetry just for the sake of symmetry doesn't really add anything to the game.

I have no issue with focusing on balance.  It always needs to be considered.  But the game is largely self-balancing simply because every hero or villain is limited to 24 powers and a fixed number of enhancements.  Choosing an epic power largely means not choosing a very good primary or secondary power.  So why not make the epic powers something more than skippable filler? 

My big picture feedback would be to occasionally consider what makes the game enjoyable to play rather than always just focusing on balance.  City of Heroes has always been fun (to me at least) because it seems so wacky and wild and unbalanced.  I play because of powers like Bonfire.  More Battle Axe vortex powers and fewer comically bland powers with impossibly long recharge times would go a long way to keeping that wacky spirit alive.

[StarkWhite]

Y'all can speak for yourselves on "powers nobody will take." Lots of us build *characters*, not perfectly optimized mathematical killbots.

You know what sucks the fun out of the game? Players who math away anything interesting or different or flavorful in pursuit of brutal efficiency. "This isn't a Fire Blast clone so why bother? Nobody will play this."

[arcane]

26 minutes ago, StarkWhite said:

Y'all can speak for yourselves on "powers nobody will take." Lots of us build *characters*, not perfectly optimized mathematical killbots.

You know what sucks the fun out of the game? Players who math away anything interesting or different or flavorful in pursuit of brutal efficiency. "This isn't a Fire Blast clone so why bother? Nobody will play this."

Thank you

[PeregrineFalcon]

I think that the word epic should be removed from these pools and they should just be called Ancillary Power Pools. These powers are many things, but epic is not one of them.

 

These are power pools that a character can't even get until they are nearing max level. They're supposed to be really good. Instead this balance pass is making them all mediocre. Why do they have to balanced to all be mediocre? Why can't they be balanced so that they're all epic?

 

Anyway, I don't expect that the powers will be changed at this point, and I'm not asking for any changes to be made to the powers. I'm just asking that the word epic be removed from these power pools as it is incorrect and misleading.

[arcane]

1 hour ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

I think that the word epic should be removed from these pools and they should just be called Ancillary Power Pools. These powers are many things, but epic is not one of them.

 

These are power pools that a character can't even get until they are nearing max level. They're supposed to be really good. Instead this balance pass is making them all mediocre. Why do they have to balanced to all be mediocre? Why can't they be balanced so that they're all epic?

 

Anyway, I don't expect that the powers will be changed at this point, and I'm not asking for any changes to be made to the powers. I'm just asking that the word epic be removed from these power pools as it is incorrect and misleading.

They’re epic compared to other power *pools*

[Dispari]

9 hours ago, StarkWhite said:

Y'all can speak for yourselves on "powers nobody will take." Lots of us build *characters*, not perfectly optimized mathematical killbots.

You know what sucks the fun out of the game? Players who math away anything interesting or different or flavorful in pursuit of brutal efficiency. "This isn't a Fire Blast clone so why bother? Nobody will play this."

You know you could preserve your character concept as having fun thematic powers AND they could also not suck, right?

[noogens2]

I'll agree with the others saying that some of the changes are "balancing" the fun out of powers, especially regarding the long recharge times of many powers.  Can I suggest that instead of just altering values at 2 to 3 times base values that we instead allow more incremental steps like 1.25,  1.5 and 2.5.  For instance, epic holds could be set to 20 seconds which is 2.5 times the 8 second controller/dominator hold recharge and in my opinion a better balancing point than 24 seconds.   The  new dominator tar patch recharge could be set to 120 or 135 seconds which would be 1.33 or 1.5 times the base 90 second recharge.  

 

From what I remember from live, the original intent of the epic pools were to round out the ATs weaknesses and allow for some cross-AT functionality.  For instance, all the squishy ATs got defense toggles, blasters got CC powers, and controllers got real attacks.  I think that epic powers should still stay strong allowing for more flavor and more variety of builds.  The overperorming powers should be "slighly" adjusted and the other powers should be buffed to compete.

Edited February 1 by noogens2

[StarkWhite]

40 minutes ago, Dispari said:

You know you could preserve your character concept as having fun thematic powers AND they could also not suck, right?

Define "suck."

If I enjoy playing a set and am capable of clearing content with it, it clearly doesn't suck. There is a giant excluded middle here.

[kiramon]

I'm sorry, but powers with 10m cooldowns shouldn't exist. Like, at all. 

 

Power pool or not. This isn't the type of game where that's necessary, and it certainly isn't fun.

[PeregrineFalcon]

50 minutes ago, StarkWhite said:

Define "suck."

If I enjoy playing a set and am capable of clearing content with it, it clearly doesn't suck. There is a giant excluded middle here.

Whether a power sucks or not depends on a lot of things, starting with which type of power it is.

 

Think of it like this. Imagine an attack power that you really enjoy using, it looks cool, or whatever. Now imagine that the devs increase the damage of that power to twice what it is now. You'll still use it cause it still looks cool, or still has whatever attribute that causes you to enjoy it. But now, other people will enjoy it too because, in their eyes, it will no longer suck.

 

See, the devs can make you and the "perfectly optimized mathematical killbots" happy at the same time. No one gets excluded.

[kiramon]

1 hour ago, StarkWhite said:

Define "suck."

If I enjoy playing a set and am capable of clearing content with it, it clearly doesn't suck. There is a giant excluded middle here.

Capable and "not suck" are not necessarily the same thing 

[Random Robot]

I just want to add my voice to the many people who are worried that HC are balancing the fun out of the game. Epic pools are your reward for getting into epic levels and should reflect that. If anything I'd rather they were pushed back to 40+ than nerfed into oblivion if they really -have- to be "balanced".

[WindDemon21]

On 1/25/2024 at 9:54 AM, Apotheosis said:

• However, though they lowered its base recharge already, it still feels way too long even with a high recharge build. I managed to get it down to 2 minutes and 6 seconds(190% Global Recharge + 90% Enhanced Recharge). For powersets with natural access to Energize, such as Electric Armor and Energy Aura, it's base recharge is 2 minutes. 

 

I do believe it likely shouldn't be equal to other Powersets base recharges, being a Patron Pool, however, 2+ minutes definitely feels a little too long when your entire build is devoted to recharge. I think shaving another 30-45 seconds off, might really help this change out.

 

Especially when normally the penalty of an Epic Pool having a power from regular powerset is 2x-3x the recharge. At max that would put Energize around 6 minutes, not 8.

 

Problem here, is the base power values. Energize and particle shielding in the armor set already SHOULD have 60s recharges not 120, especially with the regen only lasting 30s. This is the number one change needed to those sets to help them and this specific power out. The base recharge is just way too long. (which is even acknowledged with the sent versions being shorter, but even 90s should be 60 for all non-epic versions of energize and particle shielding.

[WindDemon21]

On 1/31/2024 at 1:38 PM, StarkWhite said:

Y'all can speak for yourselves on "powers nobody will take." Lots of us build *characters*, not perfectly optimized mathematical killbots.

You know what sucks the fun out of the game? Players who math away anything interesting or different or flavorful in pursuit of brutal efficiency. "This isn't a Fire Blast clone so why bother? Nobody will play this."

The point should be more to balance sets so that they are fairly equal with other sets in their field so no option is essentially better or worse than another. Problem here, lets say bonfire, is that the other epics don't really match up and haven't for a while.

 

Not that bonfire is OMG SO OP. It's good yeah, but the other epics are pretty trash altogether, most of the epics didn't really get any boosts, just mostly a recharge reduction on ST holds, but they're all still not that great. Recharge times on most of the powers are a big part of this, but now there were LOTS more that were instead nerfed rather than boosted. So this is where the problem really stands. Bonfire wasn't an outlier because it was SOOOO OP, It was an outlier because it was actually useful.

 

That said, looking at nerfs to powers like quicksand, which i hardly already ever saw any tank/brute ever take. Increasing the recharge, lowering the radius, target cap. The power is not really even more of a skip tbh, going from useful, to wtf? It already had lower slow and -defense than the main version fyi.

 

While we're at it, can stalagmites in the epic get fixed already. It has the most god awful stats of practically any epic power. 64s  rech for an aoe that does less damage than the other aoes, and a 10% chance for a super weak stun isn't even considerable for ANYTHING. Just bump up the stun chance/mag/duration to what a normal attack would have, and lower the rech/up the damage to what other aoe attacks have. The stun is always going to be short lived, inconsistent, and generally useless on this power to keep it from being too OP, so at least let it work as an actual attack.

[PeregrineFalcon]

12 minutes ago, WindDemon21 said:

Not that bonfire is OMG SO OP. It's good yeah, but the other epics are pretty trash altogether...

I just want to repeat this.

 

BONFIRE WAS NEVER OP. The other 'Epic' powers are just trash. TRASH!!!

[Coyotedancer]

1 hour ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

I just want to repeat this.

 

BONFIRE WAS NEVER OP. The other 'Epic' powers are just trash. TRASH!!!

 

 

And without paying the "slot tax" of putting in a KB-to-KD, Bonfire was pretty much trash, too... 

[Dismiss]

On 1/31/2024 at 12:38 PM, StarkWhite said:

Y'all can speak for yourselves on "powers nobody will take." Lots of us build *characters*, not perfectly optimized mathematical killbots.

You know what sucks the fun out of the game? Players who math away anything interesting or different or flavorful in pursuit of brutal efficiency. "This isn't a Fire Blast clone so why bother? Nobody will play this."

 

You can have a thematic and good character. Just like I can always play builds that do +4/x8 with ease without ruining anyone's fun. Let's not pretend you can tell in a 8 player ITF that someone has min-maxed their build.

 

The direction Homecoming has taken the game between the various 'fixes' and balancing makes me not want to play. That's not a good outcome since they could have kept players like me interested and kept people who are more into thematic builds. There's room for both in CoX.

[OldPenn]

On 11/22/2023 at 9:44 AM, The Curator said:

Epic / Ancillary Power Pools

 

 

Epic / Ancillary Power Pool Adjustments

  Hide contents

• Epic > Energy Mastery > Focused Accuracy (Brute/Scrapper/Stalker/Tanker) - End Cost reduced from 0.39 to 0.195

I think this patch note is incorrect since a Tanker uses this at a base End Cost of 0.78/s in the Live environment, and base 0.39/s on Brainstorm.

The patch note says it's 0.39/s, and being reduced to 0.195/s, rather than 0.78 to 0.39.

[Vanden]

6 hours ago, WindDemon21 said:

Problem here, is the base power values. Energize and particle shielding in the armor set already SHOULD have 60s recharges not 120, especially with the regen only lasting 30s. This is the number one change needed to those sets to help them and this specific power out. The base recharge is just way too long. (which is even acknowledged with the sent versions being shorter, but even 90s should be 60 for all non-epic versions of energize and particle shielding.

 

60 seconds is the cooldown on your Reconstruction et. al. powers, that heal just as much as Energize but with no +Regen or End discount.

[SwitchFade]

Honestly, the improvement to bonfire.... Isn't. It was fine before, then was made crap. Making it a smaller, less smelly pile of crap means... It's still crap.

 

Yeah, I usually never talk this way here,  and in all honesty, I actually don't much care if the epic version is nerfed, I have it on one blaster...

 

The fact you nerfed my fire/kin controller, burns me.

 

She wasn't OP to begin with, now she's shelved.

 

As mentioned by others, better to adjust up the other crap, instead of adding to it.

 

And yes, I do feel bad for talking to the devs this way, I know you do this for free and I know I don't pay for the game either, but free poop is still poop.

 

No thanks on the bonfire nerf.

Edited February 2 by SwitchFade

[Mezmera]

Bonfire with that KD enhancement IS a real cheap ability.  If you were Fire control I could see there being some room for complaint.  But having access to perma flapjacking enemies like that is a ridiculously broken kind of control, then on top of that you want to be everything a Blaster already is?  

 

There's many other things you can rely on than this crutch of a power, especially on a Blaster.  It was still left a good power because we have the actual Fire Controllers to consider.  Though it's a peculiar ask to want to have one of the better broken control abilities while also having a nuke.  

Edited February 2 by Mezmera

[csr]

17 hours ago, OldPenn said:

I think this patch note is incorrect since a Tanker uses this at a base End Cost of 0.78/s in the Live environment, and base 0.39/s on Brainstorm.

The patch note says it's 0.39/s, and being reduced to 0.195/s, rather than 0.78 to 0.39.

 

That's END per tick, not per second.  FA ticks twice a second.