Focused Feedback: Epic / Ancillary Power Pools

[WindDemon21]

16 hours ago, Vanden said:

 

60 seconds is the cooldown on your Reconstruction et. al. powers, that heal just as much as Energize but with no +Regen or End discount.

Well for starters reconstruction also needs fixed to be absorb and not a heal either way and really should be on a shorter recharge like 40 seconds like healing flames, but the set also has many other sources of healing/regen and has quick recovery as well. This is those sets only source of healing/regen, and the value isn't THAT high regardless that the 60s rech would OP the set, to which the sets outside of tanks (and even sometimes on tanks compared to other armors sets) aren't already a bit lackluster on survival. 60s rech on those powers would be absolutely fine and should be the case for them. Even energy armor which is much better normally due to the defense based nature still could have the 60s recharge and be fine as well. 120s for the sets only heal, especially with the regen only lasting 30 seconds is just asinine. At the very least that should extend to 60s to match the end discount but even then the sets really need the more timely healing as well.

[WindDemon21]

12 hours ago, Mezmera said:

Bonfire with that KD enhancement IS a real cheap ability.  If you were Fire control I could see there being some room for complaint.  But having access to perma flapjacking enemies like that is a ridiculously broken kind of control, then on top of that you want to be everything a Blaster already is?  

 

There's many other things you can rely on than this crutch of a power, especially on a Blaster.  It was still left a good power because we have the actual Fire Controllers to consider.  Though it's a peculiar ask to want to have one of the better broken control abilities while also having a nuke.  

They did say this shouldn't affect the bonfire in fire control, only the epics, but it's bugging right now. Regardless it's still a dumb terribly bad move. It's not perma KD, it was when kb-kd first came out, and they fixed it so it's not. It's fine how it is on live, any less and it'll be trash.

[Skygoddess]

Bonfire in epic pool wasn't OP without the extra slot to have KD in it, now it just going to be useless.  How is this power any different than ice slick? Earthquake? Whereas bonfire for blasters and masterminds required many slots and recharge bonuses to even near the level of the other two powers? 

[Cheli]

Most of the name standardizing makes sense but "Weapon Mastery" sticks out like a sore thumb. The other weapon/munition etc. themed pools are NOT at all close in flavor or execution to Ninja Tool Mastery. Would suggest revising.

 

I also feel like Soul Drain, as usual, is being specifically targeted because it's a good and frequent choice for corruptors/defenders, and the dev team seems dead-set on killing builds that rely on actual good power choices, but it is what it is. It's way more useful imo to look at whether or not we really still need to balance pool powers around extremely long CDs or area/duration penalties.

On 1/31/2024 at 1:38 PM, StarkWhite said:

Y'all can speak for yourselves on "powers nobody will take." Lots of us build *characters*, not perfectly optimized mathematical killbots.

I am a lifelong, hardcore RPer. As such I am very, very tired of people drawing this false dichotomy. You are not better at *making characters* because you choose to play suboptimally. Especially not in this game, where everything is visually customizable and an entire UI feature exists for you to explain how you roleplay your power selections. Especially not with epic/ancilliary or even regular pool powers, which are intended to be fairly generic to fit any and all varieties and combinations of primary powersets for gameplay purposes.

 

Many, many of my builds take powers for theme purposes that aren't great. I do not think that makes me or my *characters* better, and I don't think "it exists for theme" is a reasonable justification for keeping powers weak. 

[arcane]

This new “APP’s/PPP’s are all trash” narrative is wild. I guess a group of posters got together recently and decided they would all simultaneously forget about the existence of Char, Dominate, Indomitable Will, Moonbeam, Zapp, Shadow Meld, Gloom, Shatter Armor, Power Boost, Poisonous Ray, Water Spout, Physical Perfection, and the list goes on and on…

[Mezmera]

And it's not like they didn't just buff Melt Armor in that very pool so you can just hit all the ads with that then nuke them away.

 

The one thing I can agree on is the use of 10 min recharge powers should be limited to rare occasions.  If it's access to some nuke or temporary armors or special heals okay but I'd like to see pools that are fleshed out well enough that an emergency 10 min recharge power feels justified within the structure of that set.  

[SwitchFade]

11 hours ago, WindDemon21 said:

They did say this shouldn't affect the bonfire in fire control, only the epics, but it's bugging right now. Regardless it's still a dumb terribly bad move. It's not perma KD, it was when kb-kd first came out, and they fixed it so it's not. It's fine how it is on live, any less and it'll be trash.

Of the devs specifically stated that bonfire in main/secondary power sets will not be changed and stay the way they are on live, I could not find it.

 

Can you point me to it?

[victusfate]

On 1/20/2024 at 12:29 PM, WitchofDread said:

 

Giving soul consumption to controllers is a strange move, especially when they already have plenty of options for healing and end recovery. If you were to pair this with Soul Absorption from Dark Affinity, it seems like a strange move. It would be better to give them a ranged aoe attack instead.

 

on Dominators though, this is a great selection. To the point id be stuck with which powers not to take!

 

Ice Mastery for Def & corr, why include build up? Flash Freeze? No, how about Ice Slick? or Frozen Aura?

 

Spirit Drain? ABSOLUTELY NOT! This is an awful idea! Leave Soul Drain alone!!!

Echoing the soul drain duration change is a biggy. Didn't realize the epic pool version was 30 sec, how long are the primary/secondary soul drains (dark melee/assault?)

[Greyhame]

On 2/1/2024 at 1:02 PM, PeregrineFalcon said:

I just want to repeat this.

 

BONFIRE WAS NEVER OP. The other 'Epic' powers are just trash. TRASH!!!

 

A blaster's Bonfire with KB>KD is better at AOE control than most entire Controller/Dominator primary powersets.  Hard to call that balanced.

[PeregrineFalcon]

I've been on the test server, and this is my feedback:

 

Bonfire does the same amount of damage as Rain of Fire. Of course Bonfire does that damage across 45 seconds, instead of the 15 seconds that Rain of Fire lasts. And Bonfire isn't available until level 35 (it used to be 41), while Rain of Fire is available at level 6. And Bonfire can't even do the full damage unless it's slotted with a KB>KD IO because it keeps knocking people out of its area of effect. Rain of Fire helps to keep enemies in its area of effect because it has a slow. And Rain of Fire's recharge is 60 seconds while Bonfire's is 120 seconds.

 

So Rain of Fire is numerically superior to Bonfire in almost every way.

 

But we have to nerf Bonfire because it's so OP that no one wants to pick any other Epic Power Pools!!!! It's not as good as Rain of Fire but it's OP!!!!! No, the other 'Epic' power pools suck.

 

What's worse is the way that Bonfire's being nerfed makes it completely obvious that the problem is the KB>KD IO. That just makes it feel like the developers are punishing the players for being smart and using the tools the developers provided us to solve a problem.

 

Let me say this again: you're punishing the players for making smart decisions.

 

If you're not going to reverse this nerf, and we all know you won't, if you're not going to buff the other 'Epic' pools so that players might want to take them, and we all know that you won't, then please remove the word 'Epic' from the title of these power pools. They are many things, but epic they are NOT.

[Sovera]

1 hour ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

I've been on the test server, and this is my feedback:

 

Bonfire does the same amount of damage as Rain of Fire. Of course Bonfire does that damage across 45 seconds, instead of the 15 seconds that Rain of Fire lasts. And Bonfire isn't available until level 35 (it used to be 41), while Rain of Fire is available at level 6. And Bonfire can't even do the full damage unless it's slotted with a KB>KD IO because it keeps knocking people out of its area of effect. Rain of Fire helps to keep enemies in its area of effect because it has a slow. And Rain of Fire's recharge is 60 seconds while Bonfire's is 120 seconds.

 

So Rain of Fire is numerically superior to Bonfire in almost every way.

 

But we have to nerf Bonfire because it's so OP that no one wants to pick any other Epic Power Pools!!!! It's not as good as Rain of Fire but it's OP!!!!! No, the other 'Epic' power pools suck.

 

What's worse is the way that Bonfire's being nerfed makes it completely obvious that the problem is the KB>KD IO. That just makes it feel like the developers are punishing the players for being smart and using the tools the developers provided us to solve a problem.

 

Let me say this again: you're punishing the players for making smart decisions.

 

If you're not going to reverse this nerf, and we all know you won't, if you're not going to buff the other 'Epic' pools so that players might want to take them, and we all know that you won't, then please remove the word 'Epic' from the title of these power pools. They are many things, but epic they are NOT.

 

I love you, PF, but why are you comparing the damage of Bonfire to the damage of Rain of Fire? BF is not about the damage nor taken for its ability to dish out damage. BF is a CC tool, and a pretty powerful one at that.

 

Not saying I agree with the nerf, or disagree on how the 'epic' pools are turning into slightly-better-than-average pools, but it was disingenuous comparison.

 

I have not tested the new bonfire (and haven't taken Bonfire on a character in years), but if the flippy floppy makes a spawn to do.. say.. 20% less damage than it would without Bonfire then it still doing its job as a CC tool. Now it's a matter of tweaking the percentage up or down. The last patch upped it a bit more, perhaps more can be obtained yet before going live.

 

Edited February 3 by Sovera

[PeregrineFalcon]

10 minutes ago, Sovera said:

I love you, PF, but why are you comparing the damage of Bonfire to the damage of Rain of Fire? BF is not about the damage nor taken for its ability to dish out damage. BF is a CC tool, and a pretty powerful one at that.

And what happens to enemies when they're hit with Rain of Fire?

 

They get FEARed and SLOWed and they run away. And you know what they're not doing? They're not shooting at my Blaster. How is that different than the flippity flopping that enemies are doing on Bonfire?

 

And yes, Bonfire is a good AoE CC power. That's why people take it. But it's also supposed to be an EPIC power. And I'm not even asking the devs to revert the change. I'm just asking them to remove the word epic from the name of the pools and to just call them Ancillary Power Pools. They're nerfing the powers to be balanced and mediocre. Ok fine. So if they're going to be mediocre then we can't call them epic.

 

And clearly the developers are concerned with names meaning what they say, look at the "Global Epic Pool Thesaurus Nerf" (their exact words, not mine).

 

From Merriam Webster:

epic
2 of 2 adjective
1: of, relating to, or having the characteristics of an epic
an epic poem

2 a: extending beyond the usual or ordinary especially in size or scope
"his genius was epic"
The Times Literary Supplement (London)
b: heroic

 

What part of that means mediocre?

[Sovera]

9 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

And what happens to enemies when they're hit with Rain of Fire?

 

They get FEARed and SLOWed and they run away. And you know what they're not doing? They're not shooting at my Blaster. How is that different than the flippity flopping that enemies are doing on Bonfire?

 

And yes, Bonfire is a good AoE CC power. That's why people take it. But it's also supposed to be an EPIC power. And I'm not even asking the devs to revert the change. I'm just asking them to remove the word epic from the name of the pools and to just call them Ancillary Power Pools. They're nerfing the powers to be balanced and mediocre. Ok fine. So if they're going to be mediocre then we can't call them epic.

 

And clearly the developers are concerned with names meaning what they say, look at the "Global Epic Pool Thesaurus Nerf" (their exact words, not mine).

 

From Merriam Webster:

epic
2 of 2 adjective
1: of, relating to, or having the characteristics of an epic
an epic poem

2 a: extending beyond the usual or ordinary especially in size or scope
"his genius was epic"
The Times Literary Supplement (London)
b: heroic

 

What part of that means mediocre?

 

I'm not talking semantics. And I already made my point of view plain about the whole balanced-to-the-point-no-one-takes-it.

 

But you keep talking about Rain of Fire. Yes, I know all of that. And what about all the other sets that don't have a Rain of Fire? A Fire Blaster might not need the extra CC but others set might.

 

And now I'm going to back it off because it almost like we are disagreeing on the root when we are not.

 

[Ice Ember]

On 1/31/2024 at 11:38 AM, StarkWhite said:

Y'all can speak for yourselves on "powers nobody will take." Lots of us build *characters*, not perfectly optimized mathematical killbots.

You know what sucks the fun out of the game? Players who math away anything interesting or different or flavorful in pursuit of brutal efficiency. "This isn't a Fire Blast clone so why bother? Nobody will play this."

My favorite defender is a time Electric.

My badge toon is a spines ice brute

I have multiple controller combinations with electric radiation and earth dark being my favorites. Gravity time is also fun.

 

Not everyone plays the optimal character.

 

But there are some powers which are terrible because of long recharge or bad functionality which means I will never take them.

 

 

[Clam Leader]

Alot of these nerfs to bring outliars in line with the epic design equation or whatever just feel and play bad. Nerfs to powers that are already mid at best just so they can fit the 'equation' feels awful and sounds awful.

 

I love thematic options but whats the point of a power you can only use once every 4 or 5 spawns? It feels like were back in the era of statesman and his 'vision' when it comes to some of these changes.

[Crimsanotic]

On 1/27/2024 at 8:45 PM, ScarySai said:

Arctic breath was fine as it was, change it back.

 

I do not accept "Angel thinks it's too short" as a valid reason to add a second of cast time to a power, sorry.

 

Agreed. I feel bad because I kind of echoed her sentiment, but I would much, much rather have the reduced cast time.

[Super Atom]

hey is it too late to ask for a rocket launcher model (like the council have) for LRM rocket? also what does LRM mean, long range munitions rocket? (serious question not much of a weapons person)

 

He's not council but

 

Edited February 4 by Super Atom

[MoonSheep]

On 1/31/2024 at 6:20 PM, scottocamp said:

I am profoundly grateful this game still exists for me to enjoy.  And I greatly appreciate the efforts of the extremely talented HC team running this game and moving it forward.

My concern, however, is that the HC team seems focused almost exclusively on “balance” issues.  To a degree that at times feels like they are balancing the life out of the game.  Offering a reward for a balanced team composition, balancing villain groups to make sure all are equally powered, only introducing new power sets or enhancement recipes that are middle of the road, making sure all epic powers are equally lackluster, reducing the effectiveness of oddball powers like Bonfire, and so on.  After every update the game seems a lot more balanced and little bit less fun. 

 

Patch notes 4 February 2024

• Reduced the character count of @scottocamp’s criticisms to bring it in-line with other criticisms of the Epic / Ancillary Power Pools revamp

yey i’m balancing, where do i pick up my dev hat?

 

(please don’t ban me, i love you really)

[Crimsanotic]

On 1/31/2024 at 10:45 PM, StarkWhite said:

Define "suck."

If I enjoy playing a set and am capable of clearing content with it, it clearly doesn't suck. There is a giant excluded middle here.

 

You realize we're on your side, right? We're saying that the powers you want because they fit the theme of your character should be as good as the competition!

[SwitchFade]

On 2/2/2024 at 10:44 PM, SwitchFade said:

Of the devs specifically stated that bonfire in main/secondary power sets will not be changed and stay the way they are on live, I could not find it.

 

Can you point me to it?

Still not seeing. The devs stated the bonfire changed affecting non-epics was not intended? Not finding that. Anyone have the link?

[Dahkness]

Would love to see greater ice sword instead of the pet for the new Ice mastery for defenders. Would love to see a defense set with a heavy melee option with this option. Would mirror fire mastery nicely.  Feels like a missed opportunity.

Edited February 5 by Dahkness

[Ice Ember]

37 minutes ago, Dahkness said:

Would love to see greater ice sword instead of the pet for the new Ice mastery for defenders. Would love to see a defense set with a heavy melee option with this option. Would mirror fire mastery nicely.  Feels like a missed opportunity.

 

 

Ice Melee has been third class since Frozen Aura...

[Uun]

On 11/22/2023 at 11:44 AM, The Curator said:

Dark Mastery > Spirit Drain (replaces Soul Drain)

This power replaces Soul Drain from the Dark Mastery epic pool (Defenders, Corruptors). Soul Drain had ignored the standard epic cooldown penalties while also obtaining a larger than standard radius, making it a superior power to even the AT-specific version. Instead of applying the appropriate penalties (which would have made it a 240s cooldown and 10' radius power), we have taken this opportunity to rebalance it into a unique power (separating itself from Soul Mastery which also has the Soul Drain power) that trades some of its former potency for increased utility.

 

Spirit Drain is a 60' ranged attack that can hit up to 5 targets within a 15' radius. Unlike Soul Drain, these targets can be alive or defeated. The cooldown remains 120s, however the buff duration will now be 15s instead of 30s. This power is still quite potent as it can do the same amount of self-buff as Build Up, while having a longer duration, can be used as an attack from distance, and have a very minor cooldown penalty

 

Summary of details:

• 120s cooldown, 2.37s cast time
• 60 foot range
• 4.8 scale damage buff from 1 target, 8.0 scale damage buff from 5 targets
• 1.2 scale to-hit buff from 1 target, 2.0 scale to-hit buff from 5 targets
• 0.40 scale damage (Negative Energy)

Accepting that the existing Dark/Soul Drain is breaking the rules, the new Spirit Drain is demonstrably worse than the new Soul/Soul Drain. The damage buff at the target cap is 33% less and the damage from the attack itself is 60% less. Having a larger radius (15 ft vs. 10 ft) is meaningless if your target cap is lower (5 vs. 10). Keep in mind that Spirit Drain is a T4 power requiring 2 prerequisites and for you to be lvl 44, while Soul/Soul Drain is a T1 power you can take at lvl 35 with no prerequisites.  A T4 needs to be better than a T1. 

 

Existing
Dark/Soul Drain: 4.8 scale damage buff from 1 target / 12.0 scale damage buff from 10 targets / 1.0 scale damage / 30s duration / 120s recharge

Soul/Soul Drain: 4.8 scale damage buff from 1 target / 9.6 scale damage buff from 7 targets / 1.0 scale damage / 30s duration / 240s recharge 

 

New

Dark/Spirit Drain: 4.8 scale damage buff from 1 target / 8.0 scale damage buff from 5 targets / 0.4 scale damage / 15s duration / 120s recharge 
Soul/Soul Drain: 4.8 scale damage buff from 1 target / 12.0 scale damage buff from 10 targets / 1.0 scale damage / 30s duration / 240s recharge 

 

My recommendations for Spirit Drain are:

• Increase duration to 30s
• Increase target cap to 7
• Increase damage to 1.0 scale

Edited February 6 by Uun
Comparison revised to reflect buff to Soul/Soul Drain

[WindDemon21]

On 1/27/2024 at 5:09 PM, Booper said:

We won't do that. But, if you currently have a character with that power, you can keep it slotted with melee AoE sets. Spirit Drain will keep those enhancements when it goes Live. If you respec or unslot those enhancements after Spirit Drain goes to Live, you won't be able to put them back.

As a rule, I don't like this how you can have a character with a certain slotting that can never go back if they respec or unslot the IOs. It creates a weird dynamic where one build can do something if planned before a patch but nobody else ever can after that. I'd much rather somehow any power that changed unslots the enhancements in it into a tray or something. I still have an old shelved arch/ta blaster that has a lotg in oil slick arrow, it's.. very weird.

[WindDemon21]

On 1/31/2024 at 1:20 PM, scottocamp said:

I am profoundly grateful this game still exists for me to enjoy.  And I greatly appreciate the efforts of the extremely talented HC team running this game and moving it forward.

My concern, however, is that the HC team seems focused almost exclusively on “balance” issues.  To a degree that at times feels like they are balancing the life out of the game.  Offering a reward for a balanced team composition, balancing villain groups to make sure all are equally powered, only introducing new power sets or enhancement recipes that are middle of the road, making sure all epic powers are equally lackluster, reducing the effectiveness of oddball powers like Bonfire, and so on.  After every update the game seems a lot more balanced and little bit less fun. 

Adding a bunch of new epic powers that are all largely skippable just so Masterminds can now have access to Dark powers and Scrappers can now have access to Ice powers making everything more symmetrical just seems rather pointless.  Why add powers no one is probably ever going to use?  Symmetry just for the sake of symmetry doesn't really add anything to the game.

I have no issue with focusing on balance.  It always needs to be considered.  But the game is largely self-balancing simply because every hero or villain is limited to 24 powers and a fixed number of enhancements.  Choosing an epic power largely means not choosing a very good primary or secondary power.  So why not make the epic powers something more than skippable filler? 

My big picture feedback would be to occasionally consider what makes the game enjoyable to play rather than always just focusing on balance.  City of Heroes has always been fun (to me at least) because it seems so wacky and wild and unbalanced.  I play because of powers like Bonfire.  More Battle Axe vortex powers and fewer comically bland powers with impossibly long recharge times would go a long way to keeping that wacky spirit alive.

No no, all games must be converted to dark souls type games where you're impossibly weak against impossibly hard enemies to be fun. Can't have this in a game no no. This was one of our last vestiges of relaxing entertainment and it's going down the wrong path IMO.