Is /Ninja Training Absolute Trash?

[Profit]

My 2 cents.

 

You have a pile of farm builds that can clear the meteor map in less than 5 minutes.  First start there, are you hitting that threshold? If yes? Proceed, if no... then just admit you enjoy the build but it isn't this amazing thing that people are just "Too dumb to understand"

 

Clearing the troll caves isn't an example of a "good build that clears fast" as if I remember the last time you put up was well over an hour solo, when an Ice/Fire was doing it sub 30 minutes.  Again, its fine to enjoy a build but if others are doubling the performance then just maybe the set isn't top tier.

 

It is pretty easy to break down. What does nin offer?

 

Sting of the wasp is an objectively terrible ST filler. It does 48 DPA/S when other power sets have powers (elec and em) that are 132 DPA/S.

 

Choking powder - nothing special.  Plenty of sets get a mag 3 ST hold. Doesn't do amazing damage or have any crazy utility.

 

The Lotus Drops - Slightly above average damage for a melee PBAoE (65 vs 75) but still not as strong as the ones in Fire, Rad, Time, etc.  The big downside is it has that massive 28 second recharge when others are recharging in 18-22 seconds.

 

Kuji-In Toh - Toggle sustain power that offers nothing special. Rad offers +recharge, fire offers + damage aura, mental has insane values.  Again, average at best nothing special.

 

Smoke Flash - -10% res for 8 seconds with a 2 second cast (depends on when it applies, may only last for ~6 seconds if it is at the start.  This is probably the the most unique power in the set but melt armor in epics is just straight better for actually increasing DPS.

 

Blinding power - Mitigation in a word where you can just soft cap all defenses with IO's.  Pretty worthless.  If these last two powers had any interaction with Shinobi then you might have a case.  But they don't so again, medicore at best, sub par as a reality.

 

Golden Dragonfly - Mediocre Burst Damage,  Mediocre sustained damage.  126 damage is less than a tier 3 ranged attack at 132.6.  69.5 DPA/S is about the same as the most medicore attack out there from the most middle of the road set - Energy Blast / Power Burst.  Sets with better high tier melee attacks - Martial / Elec / Rad / Dark / Energy / Plant (Ripper is 75 with dots, wider cone and has the same benefit of GD in that it can slot both -res procs).  The only thing Golden Dragonfly is good for is applying both -res procs to a single hard target.

 

And finally Shin obi - The thinking man's much worse version of build up.

 

Once every 30 seconds out of combat you get a 43% damage boost to one of your attacks.  It isn't on demand damage, it isn't for a window of attacks. It is one attack.  After that you get a passive 6.25 damage bonus at all times or about the defiance buff from your tier 1 attack (tier 2's are usually 11%).  You can't on demand burst, you don't get a 10 second window to attack, and you have to literally wait to get out of combat to get the bonus.  Where as recharge IO builds with build up can get it down to 23-27 second recharge with 10 seconds of 100% damage, this set gets 50% for one attack, then acts like you always have your tier 1 attack firing for defiance. 

 

TL:DR - Nin is a below average blaster secondary.  Its only "useful" thing for high end gameplay (read IO'ed builds) is slotting the double -res proc in GD.  If the placate -res duration was boosted up to 10-12 seconds, that'd be another thing it'd have going for it, but as it is now not really worth much.  If you enjoy it, that is fine but trying to sell people on something that is both inferior numerically and in practical application as "Really strong, you just aren't smart enough to play it as well as I do" is just plain  not nice. 

 

Also hiding the Arch/Nin but then putting up a DP/Nin lol.  Yikes.

 

*edit* and just to stress this here 100%  play what you want.  I and anyone else I'd hope are fine with that.

 

If you enjoy at set and it looks cool, great!  If you enjoy a set, it looks cool but happens to be average to below average when it comes to just about everything, don't try to sell others on the idea that it is the strongest set there is when we have metrics like meteor clear times, pylon times, etc etc that suggest it is nowhere near the top.  Not for your personal benefit, but for people asking for genuine advice on builds. 

 

It's real easy to make the set look bad when you take each of the powers in a vacuum like that. The set works well when use the powers together. Yeah, it sounds bad when laid out like you did, but it's not nearly as bad you are making it seem.

[Foxfyre]

First, if I tell you guys how I'm achieving my success I'll inevitably be hit with posts about 'don't tell us how to play we will do it our way'.

 

Second, if I don't tell you how I play, but comment on how good it is I receive posts like yours or posts that say it isn't possible. It's a can't win situation truthfully.

 

However, I can tell you that I do actively farm the asteroid/atta cave/battle maiden at 4x8. I do clear the map. I've made over a billion inf with my arch/ninja blaster on these maps, enough that except for a handful of catas I've completely slotted out the blaster and my tank and have moved on to slotting my controller.

 

The set is not underpowered, it's not trash, the best way to describe it might be subtle, or misunderstood. But now I've opened myself up to the, 'don't tell people to lrn2ply' posts.

Just because you pre-emptively accuse others doesn't mean you aren't lying.

And you, are lying, just like the "it's fine, lrn2ply" scrappers used to do on the Blaster forums whenever they were arguing against any sort of fixes to the latter AT no matter how bad it got.

 

If you'd bothered to read the thread you're replying to you would have seen that I vouched for him.  I've watched him run farms.  I've run farms with him.  I've seen his character in action.

 

But....pat yourself on the back because you called someone a liar on the internet.  +troll points.

[Profit]

Also Dan, I'm holding my archery/nin back because for the moment it's kinda unique. So I'm just enjoying being on a rare set of powers that aren't seen together to often in the wild.

 

The dp/nin follows a lot of the same build ideas I used in the arch/nin, so for people to get an idea of what I'm doing it works just fine.

 

 

@OP Fact is, it's a good set. The parts work well together and will allow a player to do some really off the wall things. Examining the parts in a vacuum, it's really easy to paint the set in a bad light such that no one will even want to try it.

 

Also, you don't have to netdeck your builds like a lot of the 'elite' players do to get the same types of performance. @OP, you do you, don't let them tell you what's optimal and what isn't. Numbers and spreadsheets only go so far.

[Ghost Cipher]

The only two blaster secondaries that I haven't played are /Elec and /Ice and I would pick those before /Nin. I enjoyed /Nin for purely thematic reasons, as my main was Fire/Nin for a couple of years. But eventually I wanted to do damage worthy of the blaster name ... so I moved on from it.

 

Sorry Profit, but I'm pretty sure that Archery makes Ninjutsu look better than it really is, in much the same way that /Fire carries a bunch of sub-par blaster primaries. Just about everyone here is pointing out that Ninjutsu needs buffing, and you stand to benefit from that even if you don't agree with it. It's cool to defend your honor, but that's about you as a player and not about the powerset. A good player can make a bad set look better than it is too.

[Jeneki]

When I saw this many replies to this topic, I was hoping to find something interesting to try out.  Some little nugget of goodness that would breath new life into a shelved character.  Instead I found a bunch of Used Car Salesman speak.

 

Does anyone have anything real to offer up for /Ninja?  Anything at all that will make me sit up and say "ooh I should give that a try"?

 

Let me guess, it has something to do with the confuse contagion proc?

 

Thank you for contributing something of value.  Blinding Powder doesn't seem to break stealth.  So yes, I'd agree that if there are shenanigans to be found, this is a good place to look.

[LittleSideKick]

...so is someone going to tell me how to use the spec?  Let me guess, it has something to do with the confuse contagion proc?

 

Well gunner, again that puts me in a very hard position. Here's what I'll say, play it like an 80s movie ninja, strike some from the shadows, pick your targets carefully, and then when they least expect it, unload on the entire mob. And always make sure you're the only ninja on the team.

 

How about posting a build?  so many builds get posted at varying levels of min/max a posted build cannot possibly be interpreted as "telling other people how to play" , it can only be seen as "This is how I play"  any arguments otherwise on their part would just make themselves look silly.

 

people can critique or ask for explanations but people do that even with the legendary build crafters.

 

if you don't want to share your tactics, that's fine, some of them can probably be inferred from the build.

this is funny because every ones play style is different during live I posted a fire/fire tank build and some one was having problems with it and asked me to show her how to play it. I did show here what I do and how I play my tank. Like I was saying posting a build is great but the person that made the build might play their char different, as for Profit I have farmed with him on the BM Map and I can assure you he can back it up.

[Redlynne]

Seems to me that the general consensus is that */Ninja on a Blaster is woefully inferior to */Ninja on a Sentinel ... for what should be obvious reasons.

The real question then becomes whether or not blasting as a Sentinel is "worth it" to you relative to blasting as a Blaster on a */Ninja build.

[Herotu]

*continues fire farming at 4x8 with arch/ninja blaster*

 

Yup, total trash.

 

If you have found it to be successful and not total trash, how about sharing how you did that?  You know, instead of just sarcastically mocking the OP.

 

I'm British, I love sarcasm almost as much as I love a nice cup mug of (builder's) tea.

[StratoNexus]

I love my DP/Nin Blaster, but it is definitely sub par. It is not gimped nor unplayable, but it is weaker than it should be.

 

Lotus Drops recharge is wrong. There is a mistake there, no doubt (it looks like it was doubled, as if it was an Epic pool, and should be 14 seconds). Damage and end make sense; of course, I'd prefer a 10 ft radius as well and for Dragon's Tail (including on the other ATs that get those powers).

Sting of the Wasp should have a longer recharge and higher damage, I'd prefer the 10s recharge myself, I think the set needs that punch, but I could also see the 8s damage scale.

Golden Dragonfly Should be on an 18 or 20 second recharge and damage scale. The other ATs that get Katana chain the fast attacks for good DPS, but that doesn't work out well on the blaster version (If we removed Blinding Powder or Smoke Flash and subbed in Flashing Steel, maybe the shorter recharge, lower damage would work, but I prefer the set as built, chaining melee attacks is not a blaster goal; therefore, with the limited melee attacks, they need to have strength).

Smoke Flash -res should last longer, 15-20 seconds makes sense for its recharge.

Blinding Powder is fine. Not a great power to begin with and obviously not useful in an optimizing situation, but reasonably decent in more normal gameplay.

 

Shinobi should either be a free toggle (has to be a toggle so you can shut it off when stealth needs to go away), or provide more goodness for it's end cost. It might be neat to treat it like Mystic Flight. When active you get all the stuff it currently gives, plus you gain access to a click that buffs to hit and damage, something like +15 to-hit and +25 to damage for 8 seconds (maybe an unenhanceable recharge of 30-40 seconds (including not affected by global recharge)), but there are simpler and more passive ways to improve it as well, of course.

 

Immobilizing Dart, Choking Powder, and Kuji-In Toh are all fine, although I think thematically Confuse resistance should be included in Kuji-In Toh (maybe Sleep too).

 

The utility powers are just a bit meh overall, which is amplified when put on top of the meh melee attacks. It is the combination of both those that really hurts the set.

 

Concept is great. Overall power choice and layout is good. Minor tweaks just to give it slightly better performance are all that is needed.

 

One more thing. Am I missing a forced re-draw option for /Nin? Because I'll take the DPA penalty to actually see my sword swing. I force the guns to draw, but can't find a way to force the sword draw.

[Herotu]

@Profit

 

I forgot to thank you for posting your build so: Thank you :D

[Coyote]

Sometimes you just can't win and the sarcasm is the best option.

 

Sarcasm is rarely the best option given that silence is usually also available as an option.

In person, you can get away with sarcasm since the humor is usually easier to notice. But on a forum, you're better off not posting than posting only to be sarcastic.

 

And there it is....after you cut off all other avenues of complaining/whining.....you get the "Why don't you just shut up if you're not going to help and/or entertain me?" complaint.  Silence is only a desirable option for the person requesting someone be silent.

 

Lack of reading comprehension for the loss.

I only say that one should post politely, and that rude posts are worse than no posts at all.

If he/she were to post politely about how they manage so well with /Ninja, I'd be quite happy to see them post.

Since this was pretty clear in my post, I would suggest that you read it again... before you get snarky with it.

[Profit]

@Profit

 

I forgot to thank you for posting your build so: Thank you :D

 

You're welcome. That isn't my arch/nin, I built him as more of a traditional ninja. But that guy is gonna be my American Ninja/The Octagon/Ninja 3:The Domination ninja. A literal 80s movie ninja. And he is using a lot of the same build concepts I put into the arch/nin, just trying to adapt for dual pistols.

[Profit]

Sometimes you just can't win and the sarcasm is the best option.

 

Sarcasm is rarely the best option given that silence is usually also available as an option.

In person, you can get away with sarcasm since the humor is usually easier to notice. But on a forum, you're better off not posting than posting only to be sarcastic.

 

And there it is....after you cut off all other avenues of complaining/whining.....you get the "Why don't you just shut up if you're not going to help and/or entertain me?" complaint.  Silence is only a desirable option for the person requesting someone be silent.

 

Lack of reading comprehension for the loss.

I only say that one should post politely, and that rude posts are worse than no posts at all.

If he/she were to post politely about how they manage so well with /Ninja, I'd be quite happy to see them post.

Since this was pretty clear in my post, I would suggest that you read it again... before you get snarky with it.

 

I gotta know, were you in city before shut down? Because it's really strange seeing the name Coyote on the boards again. Considering Coyote, the player a lot of us knew, passed away and because he was such an awesome person was the first player ever to be put in the game. The devs added him to the end of the tutorial because he was so awesome.

[Waypoint]

Coyote, I'm sure, is just as popular of an online handle as any other popular online handle.

[Profit]

I agree. Was curious though, because after that Coyote passed and was put into the game, no one ever used it as a global handle again. So it kinda throws a person for a loop to see it used on a COH board, discussing COH things, after not seeing for those reasons.

[Obitus]

My 2 cents.

 

This is an excellent breakdown, thanks.

[Zepp]

I want a character with guns and a sword, that's why I like Ninja Training... That being said, it is probably in the bottom three of the Blaster secondaries...

[Coyote]

Ninja Training has a few strengths, but only once you know the procs and how to use them:

 

1: The Lotus Drops is a bad power on its own stats compared to other PBAoEs. However, it's long Recharge time means that it has much higher chances to proc damage procs, so it can hit 400 average damage per attack.

2: Smoke Flash is a poor power on its own, because the -Res is not that good and the duration is poor. But if you get rid of the enemies in that span of time, then the shorter duration is better if it leads to a shorter recharge so it's available for the next spawn.

3: Blinding Powder is kind of weak compared to the other Tier 8-9 mezzes since it's Mag 2 and the Confuse only has a chance to proc and it can't take all of the Hold damage procs and turn into a mini-nuke... but Contagious Confusion is a great set, and it probably has the best proc in the game on an AoE power, shutting down a spawn for a few seconds. That's long enough to follow with Smoke Flash, Lotus Drops, and a couple of good AoE attacks from the primary (like, say, Rain of Arrows), and you do a lot of damage in the short window of safety from Blinding Powder and of increased damage from Smoke Flash. And you can use the longer recharge for higher chances to proc -Res powers

 

Overall, the powers are pretty bad, but you can leverage certain procs and turn it into good performance once you get to Level 50 (since it needs the Contagious Confusion proc to get the nice safety boost at the start of the fight). And despite its apparently low stats, Lotus Drops is a great PBAoE if you switch to using procs for its damage rather than enhancing its stats.

[HelenCarnate]

On 6/21/2019 at 11:09 AM, Profit said:

*continues fire farming at 4x8 with arch/ninja blaster*

 

Yup, total trash.

That is good because of Archery.  Just about any secondary will farm better.

[Wompy]

Yes

[stave7]

I created an archery / ninja to see after reading this thread and another similar. Got her to 50 and T3 on some incarnates, just to make sure that I am assessing her fairly. Conclusion: Archery is good but /ninja makes me sad that I didn't get a better secondary like /tactical arrow or /devices (or any other)

 

She's so bad compared to my main blaster (beam rifle/devices) that I've stopped playing her.  I might make a second archery blaster even though I nornally never revisit a set I've played, because it was so good it almost compensated for ninja's weaknesses.

 

The major issue I have is that it doesn't convey a ninja play style. The lack of decent build up means that the initial burst damage is very poor. I don't know who thought the build up mechanism was a good idea, but it doesn't work well solo and it doesn't work well with teams.  The low damage of the secondary attacks makes them 'meh' to use: I could have shot them with an arrow instead of wasting my time with the sword. The level 2 confuse / sleep was laughable.

 

I also played a /ninja sentinal. And ... wow.... /ninja on a sentinal is fantastic. I was only defeated three times getting to level 50, and two of them were because of the team I was in. It felt like a ninja, it exemplar's fantastically well and was a joy to play from beginning to end.

 

I think there is a case being presented that 'there are secrets in here that are not obvious that make it good, and I'm not going to tell you them'. Sadly I tried to find those secrets and failed. Perhaps that's because I am a rubbish player, but on the whole I would recommend to people that don't want to nerf themselves that they should get a better secondary (almost any other)

 

 

 

 

[Spikydude136]

So normally I don't post because I don't feel like its worth my time. But reading the entire thread has made me want to post what I got from this. Profit you put your ego on full display in this thread. Could've really done without the sarcasm and rudeness towards everyone that disagrees with you. Every game ever has had bed set or champs or items and a great player has made them work as a top tier style. So congratulations for making /ninja a top tier secondary for you. But the general consensus here is that /ninja underperforms compared to the other secondaries. Also just post your build and let people test it out. If its unique, cool thats great and wonderful but just post it and let people figure out how to play it on their own.

 

Something I've always loved about this game is that there is no one correct way to build any set. You can build your Champion set to how you want to play it, wanna build for max rech, go for it, wanna max def go, go for it, etc. I can build my champions how I want and ask for advice from people to help me do it.
 

This community is one of the nicest communities I have ever experienced in the 15+ years I have played online games.. Everyone is very helpful and kind to players and willing to help. There is no reason to be rude to anyone in this game or the forums because there is no competitive scene for the game and even the PvP isn't that big as in other games. If I had the a build that made a below average secondary good, I would want to show it off to anyone that asked. I would be a sense of accomplishment and then I could discuss with people how it works if they wanted to know. You basically said no you're wrong for saying the set is below average when they gave you numbers and well rounded arguments.

 

This is the problem with things right now as there is no room for discussion anymore. As soon as someone says something you disagree with you say no you are wrong instead of engaging in a respected debate. It turns into no your wrong, I think differently than you but I don't respect your opinion at all. Silence is a great option is you disagree with someone instead of being sarcastic about it. You easily could've said I disagree with /ninja being a sub average secondary and here is why...... and then gone off and put together your side with facts and numbers.

Edited February 20, 2020 by Spikydude136
Happy 😑

[skoryy]

That was a whole lot of words with no paragraphs for someone who hasn't posted in this thread in eight months. 

[Ironscarlet]

Is Ninja worth it if you can almost cap everything most blaster can cap range but Ninja was the only one I could find to cap melee def,  range def and almost cap aoe with IO. 44 % melee def, 46% range def  and 38.9 aoe def. Can any other /secondary or combo do that I really tried hard to find something that compared?

 

Coming over from scrapper and tanker really trying to find a tough blaster to play.

Edited February 21, 2020 by Ironscarlet

[Novacat]

If you mean tough as in resilient, you'll not really find anything quite up to the level of stalkers let alone tankers.

Ninja doesn't offer anything for that that you can't get in other sets: Field Operative in /Devices gives just as much defense while Targeting Drone's a stronger damage buff. /Tactical Arrow's got some solid buffs as well and also has a 1.75% defense like those above, in this case built into Gymnastics (which also includes some mez resistance, knockback/up protection and some extra jumping height). Reaching even 40% ranged defense (S/L can be a bit easier) is hard without extensive IO bonuses, and reaching 45% might require some harsh decisions for your build's offense/utility.

 

The grand majority of your resilience will come from pools: Weave, Maneuvers, and your patron defense (Scorpion Shield is a popular one due to 10.5% Smash/Lethal and 7% Energy defense), and then IOs. But, that's not necessarily all that bad, as you've got a different set of tools. Your blasts hit rather hard and most of them pack some form of soft control or debuff in them: everything in dark debuffs tohit for example while energy's got tons of knockback everywhere. Your level 32 primary power may not have as high a target cap but hits basically like incarnate judgements (if you're used to those for comparison) and Aim and/or Build-Up (and/or chance of build-up IO on aim) also help ensure those biggest hits do serious damage. There's also snipes which smack single targets like trucks and do so even harder if you're not in combat at the time.

 

Caltrops and all sorts of other fun stuff like bonfires or ice patches can make it that the grand majority of the time the only defense category that you need is 'Ranged'.  You may have a pet or pseudo-pet, your secondaries all pack a regen/recovery power (like Field Operative) that offers other stuff, though the exact details vary (it could be an absorb shield instead, or an actual heal-tick, or energize which just shrinks your endurance costs to a trickle) across the sets... And teammates won't complain about having more stuns or holds or even just -hit thrown around with everything you do either. Time Shift for example is an area Mag3 stun with -Speed and a mild -tohit on it just to be safe, while Burst of Speed is a teleport-attack with 200ft range and three shots per charge cycle!

 

And your melee attacks, when you do have them... most of them outside of /Ninja hit bloody hard and pack some nasty debuff or CC like stuns and knockdowns too. 3-4 seconds of "it has to get back up" may not seem like much to a tanker, but that's all the time you need to incinerate them and their friends with a blaster. Once their health is gone, they're not hurting anyone.