The Philotic Knight's Buff Force Fields 1.0!

[jack_nomind]

True, absolutely. I will NOT suggest anything for any other AT. These suggestions are just for Defenders, I don't have enough experience in other ATs to propose changes to how they work for them.

 

But you are making a suggestion for four ATs already.

 

Being able to keep all enemies off their feet at all times? I think that's worth its weight in gold.

 

FF can do that with a single power (Repulsion Field).  The issue here is excessive redundancy.

 

Fair points. Defense Debuff resistence... I would not say no to. But I'm not going to ask for it. I'll ask for what I think I can reasonably get.

 

If we don't ask, we probably won't

.

 

I'm still open to Absorb... if I can be convinced that it won't make FF totally OP.

 

What would be convincing to you?  I can give you an EHP analysis -- it's a little tricky with KD and we'd have to run it for probably three sets of assumed team values (e.g., the "newb teammates" that have no baseline mitigation at all, the "average team," and the "endgame team")  but as long as you can establish the parameters you'd find persuasive I think you'll find the numbers to be pretty in favor of ~doubling FF's mitigation.

 

(You'd need to pick at least one other Defender with at least one Defense power set to compare FF to, I'd want to run the numbers against assumed AVs/EBs since most teams don't have much trouble with anything less, and you'd have to set some assumptions about build constraints like yes/no Incarnate, yes/no sets (or no attuned/purple/etc).  We'd also have to agree on how to model KB/KD.)

 

So, all the devs have to do is take out THAT AttribMod from the power and give it another instead, let's say, duplicate the "throw up" effect of Mastermind's Elixir of life (minus the animation of course) that holds the target with a mag 1000 hold:

 

That's not any special effect though, that's just a 4s Mag1000 Hold on an Ally with the HitFX being the 4s long vomiting animation. I don't see FF getting a Mag1000 Hold to use on foes, even if it's only for 4 seconds. I think you might be confusing this with the "throw up effect" from Traps/Poison Trap which is just a forced animation without actually being a mez.

 

Strong agreement.  Elixir of Life works the same as most other Rez powers; there's a brief forced animation at the beginning of Rise of the Phoenix, Howling Twilight, etc.  There are no player powers that work the way you (PK) are suggesting, and I think there's an evil djinn in that bottle if we try to open it here.

[Bartacus]

I'll admit I only read the first 2.5 pages of text on this thread. But I agree that Force Fields need to be buffed. Cold Domination is, essentially, a better and more useful set. Offering the same defense and a whole plethora of debuffs. I'm on board with force bolt changes (please dont remove it, I like it). I'm on board with any force bubble changes recommended too. And honestly you can toss out detention field entirely and I'm game for that.

 

But my suggestion is this: Give Repulsion Bomb a debuff effect such as -res/-defense. Do that and the set becomes much less useless. I love force fields. The set is cool and has a lot of unique aspects to it. But the way this game works... you are basically gimping yourself by choosing force fields. Give it a useful AoE debuff and the set functions much better.

[_NOPE_]

It already has an AoE Disorient effect, though it's not a guaranteed effect.

[Apparition]

IMO, Force Field needs +absorb somewhere (perhaps Dispersion Bubble), to differentiate itself from Cold Domination.  You could also do some -regen or -resis like @Bartacus suggested, but it would be more true to form to Force Field to keep it a pure buff set, and Absorption fits right in with force fields.

[Bartacus]

The problem is that FF isn't lacking in what it does well (providing defensive buffs). So, adding absorb honestly would certainly differentiate it from cold's buffs... but it would not make the set very much better IMO. With all these sets that came out much later than FF, the reality is far too many sets have far too many tools and FF was left behind due to the power creep. Sets like Time, Cold, Nature, etc. all outperform force field. It's because those sets offer both offensive and defensive abilities. And, in some of the sets, heals too. Not every set needs to be that versatile, but if you want to keep FF mostly the same for the "Cottage Rule" but also bring it up to speed... I think adding some sort of debuff that increases offensive ability (like -res) OR adding some sort of offensive buff would make it a much more useful set.

[Galaxy Brain]

I think FF should be exclusively a buff / soft control set. 

 

That said, the precedent for adding damage is there already. Simply taking say, Invulnerability as a thematic example you can add +ToHit on force fields since your attacks bash through defenses or such.

[DSorrow]

To buff Force Fields I would add refreshing +Absorb to Dispersion Bubble and various Debuff Resistances to the ally shields. It would still suffer from a bunch of less useful powers, but I'm not sure how they should be changed to make them interesting and useful without violating the cottage rule.

[Bartacus]

7 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

I think FF should be exclusively a buff / soft control set. 

 

That said, the precedent for adding damage is there already. Simply taking say, Invulnerability as a thematic example you can add +ToHit on force fields since your attacks bash through defenses or such.

Yeah, I understand the sentiment of wanting it to be exclusively a buff/soft control set. Problem is the soft control is the most useless control in the game in team settings, and FF being a buff set means you generally WANT to be in a team. 

 

Anyway, if we're keeping that theme I think that's fine. It just needs a +ToHit or +DMG or something in their buffs in order to keep up with other sets. Other sets just have way too much packed into them and it honestly just makes FF obsolete. My Nature Corr runs circles around my FF defender in terms of usefulness. 

[Galaxy Brain]

It needs something unique over other buffs. Absorb would do it, as could say a smashing damage proc instead of a direct boost. That would push it over other such buffs as it adds additional damage over the caps and stacks with other boosts in a beneficial way.

[Bartacus]

3 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

It needs something unique over other buffs. Absorb would do it, as could say a smashing damage proc instead of a direct boost. That would push it over other such buffs as it adds additional damage over the caps and stacks with other boosts in a beneficial way.

I actually really like that idea. I know absorb is the popular option. I think that's a good buff idea, but again I've never felt like my FF defender was lacking in giving people defenses so it feels redundant. But a smashing damage proc seems cool!

[WanderingAries]

I should probably start wearing my glasses at home.

 

I swear to god that said: "PK's Butt Force Fields"

 

At first I was like :P and then I was like "hmmm...."

[_NOPE_]

They're necessary dude. Exit only, exit only, man. 

[Sir Myshkin]

So I've given this concept a lot of thought since Homecoming went live and I rolled over and over on whether I wanted to recreate my Fire/FF Controller. I've spent thousands of hours with Force Fields, so this isn't coming out of left field when I say:

 

I get how to use and abuse it, but we are all supers of action, lies do not become us. Half the set sucks. Rumor had it that Force Fields was one of a couple sets on the review block to be spring-boarded into the "current" environment, and I spent a lot of time trying to come up with what the might envision. Lets talk about a few ideas here:

1. Absorb
   1. Barrier mechanic, think like how Energy Shields work in Sci Fi space shows, or Sue Storm's powers (at one point, depending on the writer) could weaken and break, letting things through. Absorb acts like that "untouchable, but not unbreakable" aspect.
   2. We acknowledge that a bad implementation of this would potentially over-power Force Fields into that realm of "holy cow, we just can't be killed!"
   3. Absorb is just flat out not enough to balance Force Fields into relevancy.
2. Debuffs
   1. When it comes to being violently impacts with an invisible wall of [whatever], it makes sense a target could take impact damage, or suffer a crack in their armor, or whatever, so at the minimum -Def has always made sense, and should be in there in certain places (Force Bolt, Repulsion Bomb, Repulsion Field).
   2. Could we thematically find a place to add -Res? Wearing an opponent out, weakening them? That's a tricky one.
   3. -Damage. To extend into the idea of the Absorb concept, -Dam could apply the same way, and there might be a path for this, possibly one that could include -To-Hit.
3. Utility
   1. Detention Field is probably one of the most skipped powers in the game. That needs corrected.
   2. There's an excessive amount of Knockback effects in this set. I'm not bashing its functionality, but there's just an unwarranted amount of it. At least half of us can agree on that. I'm not saying we should take it out though, Sudden Acceleration's KB/KD altering IO validates use for a lot of these powers. What they do lack is flexibility
   3. Force Field does great on the level-ramp, but in the 48-50 world of IO's, finds itself unloved, and then again gains some traction in Incarnate content because it helps all those folks who go to 45% suddenly find the iCap of 59% and move forward again, but that's not enough to keep them alive, they need DDR for that to be relevant.

 

These are the thoughts I'm proposing be looked into as a way to validate, update, and enhance Force Field as a set, for all AT's it applies to, using currently available "resources" within the game:

 

• Deflection and Insulation Shield
  • Add 15% DDR to each shield, combining total of 30% for both. Defense is the bread-and-butter of what Force Field is, it should have a way of tolerating a bad hit.
• Personal Force Field
  • Allow for a non-combat status and a combat status like Superior Invisibility. While static, does everything that PFF does now. When combat is initiated by the player, suppress to 10% Defense and 5% Resistance, enhanceable so that a player can get those values to 15/10. That, in combination with Disperssion Bubble would get them around 28-30% Defense.
  • Add 20% DDR, you're a master at these things for crying out loud!
• Force Bolt
  • Add a -Def component
  • Bump to 33 base damage
  • Add KB/KD splash (ala Propel)
• Repulsion Bomb
  • Reduce the cast time to 1.7/s to bring it in line with comparable tier 8 targeted AoE's
  • Reduce the recharge to 16/s to bring it in line with comparable tier 8 targeted AoE's
  • Add -Def component
• Detention Field
  • Keep intangibility stasis effec, change power description to "You've contained a foe in your strongest impenetrable field, while trapped they cannot break out, but the intense pressure of the field will slowly begin to crush them, wearing them down. This ability is taxing and can't be held for long."
  • Add -Def and -Res component with the following conditions:
    • Detention Field becomes a toggle with a max duration of 30/s.
    • Initial activation will apply a -10% Def and -20% Res with 50/s duration. At 10/s an additional -10% and -10% respectively for 45/s, and at 20/s another -10% and -10% for 40/s
    • 1.0 EPS toggle cost with a 10/s -Recovery on Player (balance end cost on short kicks).
• Repulsion Field
  • Option 1: Alter to match Disruption Field as a toggle AoE on target ally. Causes -5% Def and -20% Res. Primary KB, Sudden Acceleration allows it to become KD.
    • "You warp your Force Fields around an ally, all foes that get too close will get pushed back and struggle to make contact. The field is so tiring to deal with and hits so hard, enemies will wear down quickly."
  • Option 2: Turn the field into a "pet" similar to Singularity using existing models for the fields. Pet is a traveling KB/KD in the same nature as Singularity. Will chase down enemies. Has no attacks, and the aura has the same -5% Def and -20% Res attribute. (This option keeps the field stable for Solo FF users, but gives the ability more diversity, and keeps the support role out of Melee, and it would be a somewhat "unique" mechanic to just FF).
• Dispersion Bubble
  • It's perfect except for one small thing: Grants 20% DDR to all residents in the field.
• Force Bubble
  • Change power to "Influence Bubble"
  • Grant player three toggle options that alter how the Influence Bubble acts:
    • Force Bubble
      • When toggled, Influence Bubble acts exactly as Force Bubble does now, no change for the purists.
    • Oppressive Bubble
      • "Your abilities are impressive, and in these fields you are the master of their effects. You use your Force Fields to slow your enemies and misguide their attacks."
      • -Dam, -To-Hit, Slow within the field, adds secondary effect to Dispersion Bubble when active, creating layered effect.
        • Dispersion Bubble gains +Absorb on all allies within Dispersion Bubble every 10/s. This value must be weighed and tested for what would quantify an appropriate amount, my initial guess would be something like 5% stacking up to five times.
        • The power description would be something like "Simply oppressing your enemies movements allows you to focus on your allies, improving the shields around you and your team, giving them greater density against enemy attacks"
    • Chaos Bubble
      • Alternate field to Force Bubble, swaps to 50% chance to KD, 20% chance to Stun in the large field, 5 damage every 2/s.
      • "Shifting your focus from your allies to your enemies you put all your energy into making tiny force pellets, pummeling those who enter your Chaos Bubble and knocking them down. The pellets move so fast they'll do minor smashing damage, and possibly hit hard enough to disorient an enemy."
      • Gives Dispersion Bubble:
        • "Dispersion Bubble is your ultimate domain, an enemy who manages to make it this close will feel the full force of what your fields can do."
        • Force Bolt and Repulsion Bomb Doublehit.
        • 100% chance to KD

 

Collectively these changes would give Force Field a couple of debuff utilities, improve the damage of the set and stay more in line with a thematic use of what Force Fields should be capable of. Expand the T9 power into a more diverse and impactful tool representative of a T9 ability, and introduce a "new" mechanic to the set (borrowing from multi-layering ability effects used in Dual Pistols and Bio Armor, and then the Absorb mechanic itself). The alteration of PFF would give FF the ability to reach safer levels of defense without relying on pool/epic powers just as Time (and several other sets) can currently achieve within their own set. Adds relevant debuffs to the set, some thematically minor, but in a way that returns value to Force Field across all spectrums of the game. And lastly, introduces a new playstyle method with Detention Field by making it relevant to entrap an enemy by allowing a team to prep for the fight, and then unleash a collective assault, but also keep the "oh no, immediate danger!" response of the power and tossing it on an unexpected threat.

 

Thoughts?

 

 

[Galaxy Brain]

What might be nice is if Personal Force Field gave you a massive +Absorb, non refreshing, upon use that lasts until it is depleted. When you detoggle the FF, you lose the Def/Res but still have an Absorb shield for safety.

 

I think the ideas above are very cool, but I also think maybe steering away from stance powers would be good, and more working with what we have now? 

[oedipus_tex]

Strange idea for Force Bolt: attach a 35% chances for a high magnitude (around Mag 20) short duration Sleep. Then this power could be used as a detoggler. Since it also causes knockback the Sleep would instantly cancel but you'd have a chance to detoggle any enemies you hit, even armored ones. It would be a totally unique ability.

 

I commented in another thread on this topic that a totally unmined territory for buff abilities is +Range. I would very much like to see Force Field able to provide +Range.

 

 

 

 

Edited August 23, 2019 by oedipus_tex

[ShogunGunshow]

Personally, I'd like to see Force Bubble give a +ranged damage bonus for friendly characters standing inside it.

[Redlynne]

Curious.  I've always wanted to see Force Fields apply a -Range debuff to (hostile) $Targets affected by Force Field, forcing them to close range ... while simultaneously making it easier to engage in (so called) Hover Sniping due to being able to outrange them (thanks to the -Range debuffing).

[Tubalcain]

Force Bolt and Force Bomb - Give them -regeneration debuffs.

 

Force Bubble is probably the most situational tier 9 power out there. And by situational I mean I've rarely seen anyone bother to TAKE it.

 

So here's my idea for it. Yank out that repulsion mechanic. Turn Knockback to occasional Knockdown. Give it a -range and -damage debuff.

 

 

[Tubalcain]

On 8/24/2019 at 6:48 PM, ShogunGunshow said:

Personally, I'd like to see Force Bubble give a +ranged damage bonus for friendly characters standing inside it.

That's a great idea! Keep it the way it is but give it a +range and +damage buff. That would be amazing

[Auroxis]

On 8/17/2019 at 10:40 AM, Sir Myshkin said:

 

• Repulsion Bomb
  • Reduce the cast time to 1.7/s to bring it in line with comparable tier 8 targeted AoE's
  • Reduce the recharge to 16/s to bring it in line with comparable tier 8 targeted AoE's
  • Add -Def component

The 30s recharge is what enables it to be a proc machine. If there's anything that shouldn't be touched in Repulsion Bomb, it's the recharge.

[Tath99]

There are some very interesting ideas in the last few pages of this thread.

 

I would like to add the following train of thought:

 

1)  If you squint and consider the ideals of a Force Fielder in the comics, they often draw very close to the COH concept of the Tanker archetype.  The Force Fielder takes a considerable amount of punishment to protect the innocent / themselves / the team.  It would be very interesting if any reconsiderations gave a nod to this.

 

2)  The Force Field powerset suffers from a dearth of opportunities for IO sets and slotting.  Numerous powers do not take IO's nor offer any benefit for deeply investing in slots or sets.  I would strongly suggest therefore, any proposed changes consider what IO sets might go where, and how diversity might be created in Force Field defenders.

 

With the above in mind, is there perhaps scope for Taunt effects to be added to Force Field defenders powers?  Is there scope for a Force Field defender to be in the unique position to act as a bridge between the Defender & Tanker classes - acting as an Off-Tank?

 

Consider:

 

Force Bolt - Add a Taunt effect.  Add the capacity to add a Taunt IO set.

Force Bubble - Add a Taunt effect.  Add the capacity to add a Taunt IO set.

Detention Field - Add a Taunt effect.  Add the capacity to add a Taunt IO set.

 

All of a sudden a FF defender / user is in the unique position of 'rolling the dice'.  They can choose to slot their powers for taunt effectiveness and play a defence / risk strategy of taunting enemies into testing their own force field creations.

 

This would have the additional benefit of rounding out Force Field Masterminds giving them added capacity to draw attention away from team-mates and minions.  Controllers too might benefit from broadening their role.

 

As a caveat, I would also suggest each AT might have a different base Taunt value to their powers.  I would also suggest the base value should be weak enough that the average Tank would be able to overstep such a Taunt value -- unless the FF user went out of their way and slotted for Taunt / applied multiple applications of Taunting powers.

 

 

 

 

Edited August 28, 2019 by Tath99

[_NOPE_]

Interesting idea. However, for it to work, the Force Fields set would need the "Defense Debuff" hole fixed, otherwise they'd just be a smear on the pavement like a typical Blaster.

[Sir Myshkin]

5 hours ago, Auroxis said:

The 30s recharge is what enables it to be a proc machine. If there's anything that shouldn't be touched in Repulsion Bomb, it's the recharge.

16/s base would still give it a high probability rate so long as no recharge enhancements are placed in the power and it relies on global for reduction instead. As it stands currently, in order to make the power viable/worth taking, it has to have some enhancement. The change I proposed would actually benefit the power as it stands rather than detract from it.

[Auroxis]

1 hour ago, Sir Myshkin said:

16/s base would still give it a high probability rate so long as no recharge enhancements are placed in the power and it relies on global for reduction instead. As it stands currently, in order to make the power viable/worth taking, it has to have some enhancement. The change I proposed would actually benefit the power as it stands rather than detract from it.

It would lower the proc chance from 72% to 41% (on Defender), and make it less consistent. The end result would be about the same DPS if you use it when it's up, but less reliability. To explain my reasoning:

 

Bomb can fit 3 damage procs, a -res proc and an FF proc. Let's also say the power's damage is increased by 100% with buffs and a damage IO.

 

And on a high recharge build, 30s is reduced down to around 7.5s while 16s is reduced to around 4s. Add the 3.3s cast time and you have:

 

For 30s recharge:

 

36.15 * 2 + 71.75 * 3 * 0.72 = 227.28 damage, more reliable

 

7.5 + 3.3s = 10.8

 

227.28 / 10.8 = 21.04 AoE DPS

 

For 16s:

 

36.15 * 2 + 71.75 * 3 * 0.41 =160.55 damage, less reliable

 

4 + 3.3 = 7.3

 

160.55 / 7.3 = 21.99 AoE DPS

 

 

 

 

Edited August 28, 2019 by Auroxis

[Auroxis]

Also, the sweet spot for Repulsion Bomb (on Defender) would be a 40s recharge time and a 1.67s (1.848 arcanatime) cast time. That would guarantee a 90% chance to proc without any recharge enhancements/alpha. Then you could also double the damage to "compensate" for the longer recharge and address its low damage, or give it -def so it can fit more procs.

Edited August 28, 2019 by Auroxis