Is relying on procs good game design?

[Runetide]

I've been noticing a consistent discussion being made that the only way you're able to, uh, successfully deal damage in the late game is by utilizing procs. These rely on specific IO enhancement sets which sell for millions if you aren't the fortunate sort to get a drop. Even so, I've seen players talking about spending BILLIONS of Inf so they can get their build completed.

 

I just... question this from a fundamental point of view. If there's only one 'real' way to reach end game performance, then it doesn't really feel all that fun to do. I'll make like dozens of characters and level them, but the whole proc set farming/buying/etc. stuff just doesn't feel like it should be the way end game progression should be.

 

I'm sure this has been discussed before and I'll likely get roasted by someone for my opinion on this but I do not like the reliance on procs to be how you 'win' the endgame.

 

Any discussion points I'm missing?

[Snarky]

13 minutes ago, Runetide said:

I've been noticing a consistent discussion being made that the only way you're able to, uh, successfully deal damage in the late game is by utilizing procs. These rely on specific IO enhancement sets which sell for millions if you aren't the fortunate sort to get a drop. Even so, I've seen players talking about spending BILLIONS of Inf so they can get their build completed.

 

I just... question this from a fundamental point of view. If there's only one 'real' way to reach end game performance, then it doesn't really feel all that fun to do. I'll make like dozens of characters and level them, but the whole proc set farming/buying/etc. stuff just doesn't feel like it should be the way end game progression should be.

 

I'm sure this has been discussed before and I'll likely get roasted by someone for my opinion on this but I do not like the reliance on procs to be how you 'win' the endgame.

 

Any discussion points I'm missing?

Huh,  while I am aware of the looooong PROC discussion in game.....    I specifically do not make PROC builds.  I will share that my biggest ST damage dealer, for DPS only in Really Hard Way Magisterium badge runs... has ONE damage proc.  from the Blaster set.   I run mostly DPS, I run a good deal of 50 content.  I have literally no idea tthat I had been doing no damage.  Thanks for the insight!

[Cyrickain13]

 I've seen players talking about spending BILLIONS of Inf so they can get their build completed. - those are not the average CoH players. 

 

My Fire Farmer build is the one that I have invested a significant amount of inf into and it is a close to 1B. 

 

Depending on what I want to do with that character represents the amount of inf spent on their enhancements. 

 

You can do end game missions, task forces and content with IO enhancements. You won't be the cream of the crop, but you will be a viable member of the team. 

[ZemX]

I would call this more "emergent behavior" than intentional design, really.   Procs are as good as they are because of the ability to exploit global recharge to push their performance far beyond what was intended.

 

I wouldn't campaign for a nerf though.  They'd be chasing ME with pitchforks and torches instead of @Snarky.

[FupDup]

The proc-reliance is exaggerated to an extent. It's the most optimal way to play, yes, but if you're playing an AT with good base damage modifiers then you can get away with not proc bombing in nearly all content. However, people don't just want to get by or simply be "viable." They want to be the very best that no-one ever was. And that means squeezing every last drop of damage out of a build, because damage is more important than anything else most of the time. 

 

Another side-issue isn't just whether procs are too strong or too weak, but just weirdly designed. Specifically, the fact that slotted recharge kills your proc rates leads to recharge enhancements being seen as weak where in any normal game you'd want to use your stuff faster. One extreme example is the Scrapper ATO set with the critical hit proc, if you slot the set for set bonuses then the proc becomes nearly useless and you're basically just a squishier Brute. 

 

And base recharge also influences proc rates, which means that if we were to "buff" the base recharge of a power to be faster, then players would perceive it as a nerf because of their precious procs. That's a stupid design, straight-up. If people are begging for their powers to be slower to use, that's extremely dumb. Imagine in any other game, if an ability that has a 20 second cooldown got reduced to 8 seconds, and it got a damage buff along with it, and people called it a nerf (this example literally happened BTW). Lunacy. 

Edited February 16 by FupDup

[Lunar Ronin]

32 minutes ago, Runetide said:

I've been noticing a consistent discussion being made that the only way you're able to, uh, successfully deal damage in the late game is by utilizing procs.

 

Take that with two large grains of salt.  I don't care about procs.  About 90% of my characters use the Agility Alpha, which is supposedly "terrible."  Yet I've done everything there is to do in the game, including hard modes, just fine.

 

Also, it's going to be nerfed at some point as it unbalances the game.  Tankers vs. Brutes, Defenders vs. Corruptors, etc., etc.

[Etched]

I'd say there are useful attack procs, such as knock back, knock back to knock down, immobilize, or hold. Especially for the ranged type toons. Otherwise I think they're talkin out their butts and relying on damage only to get them through a fight and not skill. When to joust, when to put some space between yourself and the enemy, or when to plow the mob. These are what clear the map.

 

My 2 cents.

 

@Etched

[Captain Fabulous]

Hasn't there long been chatter about the devs reworking procs?

And no, they're not necessary to be a successful damage dealer.

[Digirium]

Players that are serious over their character builds will spend anything between 100M and 1B Influence/Infamy in total on them.

 

Discussion about damage procs is something else completely. No, they are not required for a good build and a good build depends more on accumulating various set IO bonuses than filling a power with damage procs. There has been discussion about the need to apply some sort "proc diversification" pass just like enhancement diversification of yester-year to turn builds away from the equivalent of six damage enhancements slotted in a power (filling a power mindlessly with damage procs is the same).

 

It is definitely more fun to play a 50 with bonuses from set IOs. Join the club, create a farming character and make the funds available.

[Runetide]

This has turned out to be a very interesting discussion!

 

I didn't think about it as potentially emergent gameplay, more that it might have been some developer's intent back in the day. It does kinda show how far things have gone, to be fair. Maybe now that the endgame ecology has grown this way, the new team can look at it and maybe find something interesting they can do with it?

 

From what I'm hearing is that enhancement set bonuses are the fine-tuning for an already good build? I've only seen a few of the proc enhancements so I guess I'm still pretty novice when it comes to end game content. I keep playing new characters almost every week! @_@ You'd think since I started playing on like, issue 4, that I'd know these things. 

 

[FupDup]

13 minutes ago, Runetide said:

From what I'm hearing is that enhancement set bonuses are the fine-tuning for an already good build? I've only seen a few of the proc enhancements so I guess I'm still pretty novice when it comes to end game content. I keep playing new characters almost every week! @_@ You'd think since I started playing on like, issue 4, that I'd know these things. 

 

Generally, IO set bonuses are a really huge part of the build. Damage procs are the thing that are more of a "fine tuning" measure, at least on higher damage ATs (lower damage ATs like Controllers and Defenders have a bit more reliance on them). Something like a Blaster, Brute, etc. can be just fine with minimal damage proc usage. 

 

Something like a Super Reflexes Tanker can get away with just basic Single-Origin enhancements for a while but most others are gonna want those bonuses. 

Edited February 16 by FupDup

[Snarky]

7 minutes ago, Runetide said:

This has turned out to be a very interesting discussion!

 

I didn't think about it as potentially emergent gameplay, more that it might have been some developer's intent back in the day. It does kinda show how far things have gone, to be fair. Maybe now that the endgame ecology has grown this way, the new team can look at it and maybe find something interesting they can do with it?

 

From what I'm hearing is that enhancement set bonuses are the fine-tuning for an already good build? I've only seen a few of the proc enhancements so I guess I'm still pretty novice when it comes to end game content. I keep playing new characters almost every week! @_@ You'd think since I started playing on like, issue 4, that I'd know these things. 

 

A build really makes a character.  Farmer builds are VERY proc heavy.  Including mine.  Which I copied from a much better player.  But these are lopsided hot house flower builds.  A sturdy yet effective "out in the game" build generally has a few goals that negate the temptation to just proc everything everywhere.  although, some still do.  my DPS build i mentioned has huge build goals in ranged defense accuracy and recharge.  then he sits at very very long range (beam rifle) and tears up what the team is working on.  

[Erratic1]

23 minutes ago, Runetide said:

From what I'm hearing is that enhancement set bonuses are the fine-tuning for an already good build?

 

Not necessarily. Plenty of builds only reach the heights they do because of appropriate choice of set bonuses. While you are better off not having to fix a lot of problems in your build, by default there are things any primary/secondary combination is missing which set bonuses can help address.

[tidge]

2 hours ago, Runetide said:

I've been noticing a consistent discussion being made that the only way you're able to, uh, successfully deal damage in the late game is by utilizing procs. These rely on specific IO enhancement sets which sell for millions if you aren't the fortunate sort to get a drop. Even so, I've seen players talking about spending BILLIONS of Inf so they can get their build completed.

 

...

 

Any discussion points I'm missing?

 

First: nobody is spending Billions of Inf on Procs. There are a couple of D-Syncs that are elevated in price, but even spending 25 MInf on 30 Very Rare pieces would only be 75% of a Billion. I haven't checked the market for those, but that would have been extreme prices not that long ago. I have a lot of builds loaded with Very Rare sets and the like, and all my characters start with just seed cash and rely on drops, conversions and merits.

 

Now, about %damage pieces... the primary way they improve DPS: Characters that are on the low end of the inherent damage scale, because %damage doesn't follow the AT damage scale. %damage can end up helping low DPS ATs avoid incredibly long clear times when spawn sizes are turned up, but they will still lag behind high DPS ATs slotted without %damage.

 

There are things that work against leaning hard into %damage:

• Slotting multiple %damage in a power means that you will sacrifice Enhancement set bonuses, and
• Slotting multiple %damage in a power means that Enhancement values generally are not being slotted (although there are a few %procs that enhance attributes as well)
• %proc chances are hurt by fast-firing powers, as well as slotted (and Alpha) recharge

ATs that already do good damage from an attack should probably just slot those attacks with Enhancement sets, rather than relying on RNG. It would be foolish IMO to give up the sure thing of Enhanced Accuracy, Damage and Endurance from a set just to hope to see some extra %damage. Having written that, my own thinking about high-DPS ATs involves the nature of the power, the sets I would otherwise slot and the %proc chances.

 

 

 

[Glacier Peak]

Or don't spend any inf and just join or form a team! You can hit damage cap (and get near recharge cap) easily with just a Kinetics powerset teammate. 

[A Cat]

I for one like how the procs work. Back in the day it just to just be a % chance of firing per attack, and thus favoring fast recharge fast animation attacks. Now, it's the opposite which makes your big bad attack bigger and badder. I'm sure we can all agree that this current system is way more cool. When you chunk off a huge percent of health, or just delete an enemy from existence, it really activates the monkey neurons. Much better than just throwing down caltrops. 

[Snarky]

i like caltrops

[Thraxen]

A billion isn’t much when you play the game for a while. And too often helps too. I only farm to skip lowbies a few levels if I can’t get on a team. I don’t play the market. You get quite a bit from playing the game at 50. Doing an apex/tin and use merits for pieces you need or get stuff to sell. Reuse IOs if you end up not liking a toon.  
 

I think a power should only be able to take one damage proc. Would be an easy fix. You can for sure manipulate powers to have high chances to proc. Some people throw a ton of procs when it only has a 47% chance to fire which I don’t fool with.  There are a lot of powers you can have a lot of procs with 90% to fire and still be up often with recharge global bonuses and hasten. 
 

Still one of the best parts of this game is there are a million ways to play it.  You don’t have to have a ton of money to make a good build. I have a perma pa ill/storm that doesn’t have any purples and performs really well. 
 

I made a proc tank and it was boring for me. End was awful and would detoggle if not super attentive. I have a proc db/sr that is a blast though. 

 

id also make a few powers toggles, PA or light form for example, and get rid of hasten. It’s almost a prerequisite for a lot of builds and certainly required for min/max builds. 

 

[Yomo Kimyata]

5 hours ago, Runetide said:

I've been noticing a consistent discussion being made that the only way you're able to, uh, successfully deal damage in the late game is by utilizing procs. These rely on specific IO enhancement sets which sell for millions if you aren't the fortunate sort to get a drop. Even so, I've seen players talking about spending BILLIONS of Inf so they can get their build completed.

 

What year are we in?  You there, what year is this?  2010?  IT WORKED!!! HAHAHAHAHAHA

[Onlyasandwich]

It's hard for me to speak objectively here because I really love the trade-off that procs present, and the interesting optimizations you can do with some truly surprising builds.

 

The vast majority of characters sacrifice huge defensive opportunities, recharge, accuracy, and end efficiency when focusing on procs. I find it fun to find the razor's edge of balance between just enough survival and leveraging procs to squeeze that extra juice.

 

There are a handful of combos that break this limitation, as they can solve defense so easily with few slots and powers. Super reflex tankers and Pbu time characters are the main offenders. Even then, play one and I don't think you'll find it any better than a really well built primary with other strengths. Well - maybe time covers a too much territory as a set a little too well. 

 

Without procs as a very attractive alternative, I find it becomes a little too easy to come to a consensus on objectively superior "solved" builds.

 

With procs in the picture, I can justify my super fun dominators who almost completely forego defense. They really lean on their control primaries to survive, and the reward for managing that risk with smart play is a meaningful chunk of damage. If not for procs, it would pretty much be defense softcap all day. I mean - it sort of is still, even though proc heavy builds are more popular than before. 

 

[nzer]

There's nothing wrong with procs from a game design perspective. They're another way to boost the damage of your powers that behaves differently than direct damage enhancement, namely that they're more effective on powers that have very low damage dealing potential to begin with. It creates a question of fixed damage bonuses vs. percentage damage bonuses, which is a fairly common pattern in crunchy RPGs.

 

What does seem problematic to me, which has been pointed out already, is their interaction with recharge. Mostly their not being affected by global recharge, because it leads to what I feel is a degenerate gameplay pattern where you specifically avoid recharge bonuses and even set bonuses (because you'd have to slot recharge to get them) just to maximize proc rates. Although, you could also argue this is a legitimate source of build tension, so...

Edited February 16 by nzer

[BlackSpectre]

Here is a list of enhancements with special effects, aka, procs.  https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Set_Enhancements_with_Special_Effects

 

Think of them as "extra".  

 

Then there are IO enhancements with set bonuses. These are what make your character have a chance to survive (or even thrive) in a world of hurt.  https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Enhancement_Sets . Procs are not what are essential to triumphing against high difficulty settings, it's these set enhancements.

 

Then there are regular IO enhancements.

 

Lastly, there are regular enhancements.

 

You can easily go from level 0-50 just using regular enhancements.  

 

End game content is typically Incarnate content.  You can also do this content with regular enhancements because Incarnate trials are a team effort. Thera are a few incarnate missions, and they're totally doable with regular enhancements.

 

Then there are farming builds. These are specialized builds meant to carry an entire team of players by themselves.  To be able to do something like that, that the game is really not designed for, you need some of the pricey set enhancements, super pack enhancements  https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Super_Pack , and enhancements with special effects. You're pushing the game beyond what it was designed for here, so you'll need the pricey stuff. However, farming is not end game content. It's something different.

 

Now doing trials and task forces on the highest difficulty setting is up to you. The higher the difficulty, the more expensive build you'll need. But you don't have to do anything at high difficulty levels. It's your choice. You get a few nice rewards, but overall they not super amazing. Definitely not necessary.

 

It all really depends on how far you want to push the envelope. You don't have to push the envelope to do end game content. But if you want to, there are ways to do it. Expensive ways. Farming ways. Challenging ways. They're all optional.

 

Building character with regular enhancements or just IO enhancements makes the game challenging and fun. It's a struggle, but the struggle makes the game fun.

 

If you want an easier time where you don't struggle, hardly ever die, then set enhancements are all you need. 

 

A couple numbers to keep in mind. Defense is soft capped at  45%, 59% for incarnate content. Resistance is hard capped at 75% for most characters, 90% for tanks.  Smashing damage type is the most common, so having defense and/or resistance capped  in only that damage type will carry you a long way.... and you cap those using set IO enhancements. But again, you don't have to. Play the way you want to play. Have fun.

 

 

P.S. Farming is not the best way to make a lot of money quickly in this game. Playing the market with the auction house is. For spending 20 minutes per day, I can make 150 million inf per day. Easy money.  It takes inf to make inf.  The knowledge is out there, just search or google it.  I farmed my first 300 million inf. After that I never farmed again.  

 

P.P.S. I reread this post and realized that if I was a new player, I'd want a little more specific guidance on the topic, procs, so I thought I'd offer a list of what I feel are the most useful for the way that I like to play. I don't use all of these procs in every build, it all depends. All of them convey benefits for me that outweigh their cost. For pricey or rare ones, I tend to use the Enhancement Converter and change inexpensive enhancements into these expensive ones. The Enhancement Converter uses  special "Enhancement Converter" salvage. Since it's RNG, you can end up using a lot of converter salvage which can get pricey. So instead of inf, I use Reward Merits to buy them at a Reward Merit Vendor. You get reward merits from completing missions, signature story arcs, and many other ways, but by far the most efficient and fastest way to get them are to do Hamidon Raids. once you get to level 45 (I think).  Tin Man and Apex task forces are good too.

 

Without further ado, here is the list of proc enhancements that I find useful in most characters...

 

Sudden Accelleration : Knockback to Knockdown

Luck of the Gambler: Defense/Increased Global Recharge Speed

Performance Shifter: Chance for +Endurance

Miracle: +Recovery

Panacea: Chance for + Hit Points/Endurance

Numina Convelescence: Regeneration/Recovery

Reactive Defense: Scaling Damage Resistance

Shield Wall: Teleportation Protection, +Res All

Steadfast Protection:  Resistance/Defense

Galdiator's Armor: Teleportation Protection, +Def All

Power Transfer: Chance to Heal Self

Preventative Medicine: Absorb Proc

Regenerative Tissue: Regeneration

 

In every single character I slot the procs Performance Shifter, Miracle, Panacea, and Numina's Convalescence to increase endurance recovery. I 3-slot Stamina and Health, and put most of these in there.  I really, REALLY hate running out of endurance! LOL

 

The health related procs boost survival a lot (especially as you're leveling up). I use all of the defense and resistance ones if I'm attempting to reach the caps (every little bit helps). And the rest are for very specific powers or builds.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 17 by BlackSpectre

[MoonSheep]

procs aren’t overly effective at end game are they? a damage proc isn’t going to do much on a +4 enemy as they don’t receive player damage buffs (but do benefit from enemy resistance debuffs)

 

procs are great in some builds, like poison defenders, but are mostly icing on the cake for the majority

[MrAxe]

You don't 'need' to rely on them at all, people just like to.

[GM Crumpet]

I've never spent more than about 700 million on a level 50 build. I do buy standard ATO's and use catalysts on them to turn them purple  though. Anything that costs over 20 million is best purchased with merits. Hami O's and D-Synchs are best left for those people with more inf than they can ever spend.

 

I'm kind of useless with builds. If I'm building for myself I'll just shove the entire set into the power rather than frankenslot for every possible advantage. Procs I tend to use are the recharge ones (luck of the gambler).  healing ones in health and end mod ones in stamina. Other than that, if I have a power I don't use with an empty slot I'll shove the appropriate proc in there as I have the inf and it won't hurt.

 

Some of them are really helpful like blessing of the zephyr 4 points of knockback resistance. It's not always about the raw damage.