Is relying on procs good game design?

[JasperStone]

What if ....

Now hear me out...

We create a certification process to properly learn how to slot Procs.

So we could become...

<.<

>.>

Procologists

[Maelwys]

20 minutes ago, JasperStone said:

 

I SAY THEE NEIGH!

[Greycat]

On 2/15/2024 at 5:28 PM, Runetide said:

I've been noticing a consistent discussion being made that the only way you're able to, uh, successfully deal damage in the late game is by utilizing procs.

We were able to solo successfully before IOs, much more procs, were a thing.  Early, mid and late game.

You do not need procs for anything. They could completely disappear from the game and all that would happen would be some griping on the forums and some adjustments to builds and we'd be back to being insanely overpowered within a month.

 

SO, whoever's saying that has no idea what they're talking about, far as I'm concerned.

[Grouchybeast]

On 2/16/2024 at 1:21 AM, Runetide said:

I didn't think about it as potentially emergent gameplay, more that it might have been some developer's intent back in the day. It does kinda show how far things have gone, to be fair. Maybe now that the endgame ecology has grown this way, the new team can look at it and maybe find something interesting they can do with it?

 

Procs were in the process of being reworked by the live devs literally as the game was closed.  What we have now is the result of the I25 beta that was on the test servers when the shutdown was announced and development stopped dead.  I'm pretty sure that if the game hadn't been closed, we'd have seen some further work done on them either in I25 or later.

 

I don't use them, except incidentally as part of a set.  They've always seemed to me like a slightly broken edge case, and I don't want to end up with a bunch of broken characters that need to be rebuilt when someone at HC gets round to updating them.

 

But if people really are spending billions on inf on a build then they need to stop buying their IOs from some dude in a trench coat who claims he's selling legitimate surplus Longbow equipment.

[skoryy]

2 hours ago, Grouchybeast said:

They've always seemed to me like a slightly broken edge case, and I don't want to end up with a bunch of broken characters that need to be rebuilt when someone at HC gets round to updating them.

 

It's been five years and several pages.  Throw in the brouhaha when Rage was even touched, and it's safe to say that the odds on this happening are slim and none.

[Perfidy]

On 2/15/2024 at 5:28 PM, Runetide said:

I do not like the reliance on procs to be how you 'win' the endgame.

 

How shall I put this so as to not disturb anyone's sensitive nature...it's not my intent to offend or disregard anyone's opinions or ideas as without merit. But, that said: 

This idea that we need procs to win the endgame is simply not accurate. At least, it's not accurate for me, and I dare to say it's not accurate for most of us. 

But those are just words, right? 

I suppose I could channel some version of an inner philosopher and ask, "What do you mean by win?" 
Is getting to 50 winning? Getting to t-4 in each incarnate slot? Getting all the badges on a character? 5 characters? Each AT? ALL of your characters? 
Achieving a hard mode (what is it, 4 stars?) ITF and Aeon, and soon, Lady Grey TF? Is getting a trillion inf winning? Ask Yomo or some of the other folks with big stacks. 

Regardless of your definition of win, you don't need procs to get there. Some of the procs can help, sure. Particularly if you understand how they work best. 

Aside from certain D-Syncs and Hamidon enhancements, the most expensive enhancement is probably 30M if you're impatient. Heck, just politely request one in chat and you're likely to get either donations of influence or the actual item you seek for free. I have indulged in these charitable acts fairly often, simply because I have more than most and will never spend it all. 
Even so, while there are 120 "procs" (give or take a few) using the term in the broadest sense, none of the "Chance of X type damage" cost more than a few million - which, when you reach the end game is what most would call petty cash or chump change. 

But - to be specific to your particular question - "Is relying on procs good game design?" the answers you will get are fairly without relevance, as they're just opinions. 
This guy says yes, this guy says no. Who's right? I've no idea. 

I'm not an expert on game design. I use some procs on some builds and on other builds, they don't seem worth it. 

Maybe I haven't won the end game yet. I genuinely have no idea. 

[Player2]

On 2/17/2024 at 4:50 AM, Grouchybeast said:

 

Procs were in the process of being reworked by the live devs literally as the game was closed.  What we have now is the result of the I25 beta that was on the test servers when the shutdown was announced and development stopped dead.  I'm pretty sure that if the game hadn't been closed, we'd have seen some further work done on them either in I25 or later.

 

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the original devs intent was followed up on here at Homecoming.  You should be able to find numerous instances in the patch notes of things like some proc enhancements being made unique, not firing multiple times, fixing things that didn't fire off when they should have or firing off wrong, and other refinements... so further work has definitely been done.

[Player2]

10 minutes ago, Perfidy said:

I suppose I could channel some version of an inner philosopher and ask, "What do you mean by win?" 
Is getting to 50 winning? Getting to t-4 in each incarnate slot? Getting all the badges on a character? 5 characters? Each AT? ALL of your characters? 
Achieving a hard mode (what is it, 4 stars?) ITF and Aeon, and soon, Lady Grey TF? Is getting a trillion inf winning? Ask Yomo or some of the other folks with big stacks. 
 

 

I define winning by how well someone's character concept looks.  Costume creator is one of the most difficult but rewarding mini-games in COH.  Coming up with a creative name that fits because you couldn't get the one you really wanted is just gravy.  Simple but informative bio to explain it all?  S-Tier.

[Luminara]

3 minutes ago, Player2 said:

 

I define winning by how well someone's character concept looks.  Costume creator is one of the most difficult but rewarding mini-games in COH.  Coming up with a creative name that fits because you couldn't get the one you really wanted is just gravy.  Simple but informative bio to explain it all?  S-Tier.

 

You forgot tiger blood.  It's not winning if there's no tiger blood.

[Player2]

5 minutes ago, Luminara said:

 

You forgot tiger blood.  It's not winning if there's no tiger blood.

Fun fact:  Tiger Blood is presently available as a name on every shard except Excelsior.

[cronus]

1 hour ago, Player2 said:

 

I define winning by how well someone's character concept looks.  Costume creator is one of the most difficult but rewarding mini-games in COH.  Coming up with a creative name that fits because you couldn't get the one you really wanted is just gravy.  Simple but informative bio to explain it all?  S-Tier.

It is not enough to win.

 

Others must lose.

[Player2]

1 hour ago, cronus said:

It is not enough to win.

 

Others must lose.

Costume contests summed up nicely.

[Erratic1]

1 hour ago, Player2 said:

Costume contests summed up nicely.

 

I have never won a costume contest, so I guess I am helping others win.

[Azari]

Procs are best paired with hamis. 

[Psyonico]

Just going to throw my 2 inf into this...

 

Proc-bomb builds are not required in this game, but they are a very viable strategy.  Perhaps top tier.  That being said, it should be expensive/hard to get a top tier build, proc or otherwise.

[Ironblade]

On 2/15/2024 at 6:28 PM, Runetide said:

I've been noticing a consistent discussion being made that the only way you're able to, uh, successfully deal damage in the late game is by utilizing procs. These rely on specific IO enhancement sets which sell for millions if you aren't the fortunate sort to get a drop. Even so, I've seen players talking about spending BILLIONS of Inf so they can get their build completed.

 

The first sentence is flat-out false.  I would agree that you do need procs in order to min-max your character to do the absolute best possible damage.  But to "successfully deal damage"?  That's total nonsense.  And I think I understand 'late game' reasonably well.  I just checked and I have 28 characters that are fully tier 4 incarnate.

 

As for spending billions on a build....  is that even possible?  It was common back on live, but everything is so much cheaper now.  A full purple set is around 120 million for the GOOD sets.  I've never seen a build that could have more than six purple sets.  Add the ATO's and every useful unique and I honestly don't know that you can shoehorn more than ONE billion into a single build.  I guess you could spend more if you're a 'buy it now' person, but that's on the person with no patience.

[Ironblade]

On 2/15/2024 at 8:21 PM, Runetide said:

From what I'm hearing is that enhancement set bonuses are the fine-tuning for an already good build? I've only seen a few of the proc enhancements so I guess I'm still pretty novice when it comes to end game content.

 

Hold on a second.  I think you might be misusing a term.  A proc is very specific sub-category of IO's (Invention Origin enhancements).  If you really meant IO's in general, then that's a different story.  You really do need at least some IO's for a good performing build.

 

Having said that, you can put together a good build, that makes the character DRAMATICALLY more effective, for maybe . . . . between 50 and 100 million for most characters.  I wrote in another thread how I made a tank incredibly tough (with 350% regen rate) for around 20 million back on live.  Could do it for maybe half that now.

[Ironblade]

On 2/16/2024 at 1:47 PM, Runetide said:

Heck, I went looking after I posted this and saw a comment about getting archetype origin enhancements and was surprised they existed! I don't even know where one can get merits at a decent enough clip that I could get a full set of them for my farmer in under a week (or more) of gameplay.

 

Well, if you're willing to go hardcore....  On Everlasting, they do Hamidon raids at least twice per day (7PM EST and 10PM, sometimes also midnight).  At each time, they actually do it twice and you can get 120 merits in about 15 minutes.  The devs have said they're fine with this since it requires massive teamwork (we're talking 40+ people).  The reward has diminishing returns for each extra raid on the same day so if you brought a different character to each raid, they could each get 120 merits.  You could get two full ATO sets in under a week.

 

A more efficient way is to use the merits to buy converters.  Sell those and buy the items off the market and you'll come out slightly ahead.  Even more efficient is to use the converters to convert trash IO's to useful ones.  This takes more time and research but is REALLY big bucks.

 

The way I get merits is that I do whatever task force is the 'weekly strike target' at least once each week.  Each character can get a bonus of double merits once each week.  The lowest task force starts at level EIGHT so I'm sure you have many characters that could do this.  The weeklies for the coming week (starting at midnight UTC) are Manticore, Mortimer Kal and Admiral Sutter.  The minimum levels to join are 30, 20 and 20 respectively.  I enjoy the task forces and do them for the XP since I have over 52,000 merits.

[wjrasmussen]

On 2/15/2024 at 3:28 PM, Runetide said:

I've been noticing a consistent discussion being made that the only way you're able to, uh, successfully deal damage in the late game is by utilizing procs. These rely on specific IO enhancement sets which sell for millions if you aren't the fortunate sort to get a drop. Even so, I've seen players talking about spending BILLIONS of Inf so they can get their build completed.

 

I just... question this from a fundamental point of view. If there's only one 'real' way to reach end game performance, then it doesn't really feel all that fun to do. I'll make like dozens of characters and level them, but the whole proc set farming/buying/etc. stuff just doesn't feel like it should be the way end game progression should be.

 

I'm sure this has been discussed before and I'll likely get roasted by someone for my opinion on this but I do not like the reliance on procs to be how you 'win' the endgame.

 

Any discussion points I'm missing?

I have fun with them.  If fun isn't the top reason to play then f it all.
Besides, I hate people who want to dictate my play style.  Worse, those who say they are "just discussing it". 

[victusfate]

There are some interesting %dam proc powers like Cold's Infrigidate (my recent Bots/Cold has 4 damage procs in it). It does reliably moderate single target damage compared to MM terrible attacks.

 

Burn is another power which can benefit from heavy damage procs.

 

Tornado variations are fun with a mix of procs. There are many KB powers which almost demand a proc tax (KB to KD) if you care about clear time efficiency and your melee buddies sanity.

 

As others have said, I'm usually focusing on set bonuses so powers have at most 2 damage procs. And the set bonuses with the highest priority across many of my character concepts are defense (melee/ranged) and recharge. Accuracy and resistance are my second tier set priorities (tankers/brutes may prioritize resistance a bit higher).

Edited February 19 by victusfate
grammar

[Grouchybeast]

On 2/17/2024 at 12:14 PM, skoryy said:

It's been five years and several pages.  Throw in the brouhaha when Rage was even touched, and it's safe to say that the odds on this happening are slim and none.

 

Previously I might've agreed, but Homecoming development gets shaped a lot by what the individual volunteer devs want to tackle.  There will certainly be new folks with new interests now that they're opening up recruitment after the license agreement. 

[Heatstroke]

Ive always been of the opinion. Play what you want and how you want. Dont let other people dictate your fun. 

 

But there is what I believe a lot of misinformation about City of Heroes based around individual perceptions and opinions of what is good and what isnt. 

 

I would say get an understanding of IOs, IO sets and the bonuses from them. Those can help your build and not only for the " end Game " ( which I still dont know what that is after playing CoH for 15 plus years.. havent figured out where the END is yet), but while you are paying and leveling. Enhancement set bonuses do make a difference.

I have multiple level 50s ( 40+ ) fully built with IOs,Hamis etc etc and I have never spent 1 billion on a build. Spent 750m once. 

 

I ony started using Damage Procs in the last year. There are some things they are very good for, especially giving some non damage powers a source of damage, like Infrigidate from Cold Manipulation. Some things I find they do a give little extra, I like using them in hold powers, but I don't think ANY of them are  "required" to do anything. 

 

 

[Scarlet Shocker]

I think we need to be a tad careful here and I will try to explain why.

 

The forums are a bit of an echo chamber - I'm pretty sure I'm right in saying only a small proportion of the user base uses them on a regular basis.

 

I have noticed when I am asking for build help most of the builds I either post are critiqued for not having enough procs in them - and certainly almost all teh builds posted in response to requests have a lot of high end sets in and a fair few procs.

 

I put that down to min-maxing, and to a certain extent the natural competitiveness that we see on forums in general. Folks build the best build they can - so we tend not to see too many "that'll do the job" builds. Add those factors intogether and you get increasingly expensive builds that do super-high damage and give amazing Def/Rech and generally do more than most players need.

 

That's not a bad thing - in fact it helps average players like me improve my build skilz and also understand better what certain powers and sets and procs actually do.

 

But are they necessary? No. I believe it's still true that the game remains built around SO's and those are largely enough - but a simple invention set far surpasses those and does a pretty reasonable job at almost all content

 

but if you want to solo Dilemma Diabolique at x12x37, then you really are gonna need a build that's chocaprocs

[eiynp]

On 2/17/2024 at 1:50 AM, Grouchybeast said:

 

Procs were in the process of being reworked by the live devs literally as the game was closed.  What we have now is the result of the I25 beta that was on the test servers when the shutdown was announced and development stopped dead.  I'm pretty sure that if the game hadn't been closed, we'd have seen some further work done on them either in I25 or later.

 

I don't use them, except incidentally as part of a set.  They've always seemed to me like a slightly broken edge case, and I don't want to end up with a bunch of broken characters that need to be rebuilt when someone at HC gets round to updating them.

 

But if people really are spending billions on inf on a build then they need to stop buying their IOs from some dude in a trench coat who claims he's selling legitimate surplus Longbow equipment.

 

yeah I mean, things were even worse w/r/t procs before they moved to a PPM system

 

the current iteration is... pretty good? Procs might be a little too strong, but they serve a relatively important purpose in that they create an opportunity cost to just running the same IO sets over and over again. A lot of the time it's a good-to-obvious trade to give up another set bonus in favor of loading up an attack with procs, but at least there's a tradeoff. If procs got significantly devalued there wouldn't be more build diversity, we'd just be back to running the same 5-6 slot IO sets in those powers.

 

also I dunno how people are spending a billion+ on builds anymore; only ATOs and purples are really run more than 2-3mil/slot, and if you're running a proc-damage-oriented build you can't have all that many purples

[Yomo Kimyata]

I think it is fair to say that the devs have been working towards weaning out proc advantages.  Almost every issue has powers dropping their recharge that OMG drops proc chances.