How do we fail new players?

[Bionic_Flea]

1 hour ago, Neiska said:

Here are a few examples

 

What server are you playing on?  That's quite a list.

[Pleonast]

Unless this game is welcoming to new players, it is going to shutdown. Again. I’m sure it’ll last ten more years. But twenty or thirty more? I don’t see it happening. 
 

Telling new players that they have to do this or that is not helpful. Especially the expectations that they learn all these game mechanics and systems. No one wants homework to play a game. 
 

The game needs to be easy to continue playing first and foremost. Everything else can be figured out later. Players don’t have to be good or effective, as long as it’s fun enough for them to keep logging in. 
 

Are new players having fun? Are they being discouraged by game systems catering to veteran players? Or, are they being scared off by the expectations of veteran players? 

[Neiska]

1 minute ago, Bionic_Flea said:

 

What server are you playing on?  That's quite a list.

 

Lunar had it right, Everlasting. Not all of these happened in the last two weeks mind you, but they all happened in TFs and Raids. But yes, every one of those topics were openly discussed with all the casual conversation of "what is your favorite kind of cake?"

 

If you ask me, people are focused on the wrong "problems", but that's just me.

[arcane]

1 hour ago, Neiska said:

And now for my rebuttal, and I think I am going to remove my filter for this one.

 

1. New players rushing is wrong!

-No, it isn't. Not if said new players "choose" it. Sure, you can offer guidance and your opinion, but unless your name has a "Homecoming Staff" besides it, then what you have to say is just that, your opinion. Not a rule. Not a must-do. It is at best, a bias suggestion. And I find it amusing that on one hand, CoH likes to go "AE/farming BAD" but in the same breath goes "hey, here is unlimited EXP boosters!"

 

Not only that, but Where is it written "what" to do? Pray Tell, show me what rule says one MUST play a certain way? If a new player wants to hang out at pocket D at level 10, that's their business. If a player wants to not play superhero at all, and play investment simulator with the auction house, then that's their business. Who are you (not anyone in particular, speaking rhetorically here) to tell another person what activity is and is not allowed, good, or right? My only two questions are "did YOU have fun?" and "did THEY have fun?" should be the only two metrics of what "correct play" is. Because what "you" find fun, might be the part of the game someone else hates the most. 

 

2. Why don't some people (new and old alike) like doing PUG things?

- Speaking only for myself here, but not everyone likes or enjoys the PUG community here. For me there are a few reasons why, so I will break it down.

 

2a - The chat/commentary

- I have been playing since 2019. I have done a total of five, FIVE mothership raids, and ONE Hami raid, all of them in the last two weeks. And I doubt I will do so again. Because every single time without fail, the chat has turned into the worst of various reddit threads, many of which I can't even repeat here. Here are a few examples -

 

-NSFW Furry commentary.

-Controversial topics such as BLM, "my body my choice", etc.

-How some people of a particular political opinion should be arrested.

-How terrible incels are, and why they are to blame for every ill in society.

-How great communism is, and how bad capitalism is.

-LGBTQ dating, most of which I cannot repeat here.

-The current situation in Gaza, and how X side is wrong.

-Religion.

-Subscribe to my (adult content)

- The adult orientation of X fictional character.

etc etc.

 

Now, I don't care what people's opinions are on any of these topics. I don't care what your intimate orientation is. I don't care who you support politically. I don't care who or what you worship or consider sacred. That is none of my concern, nor my business. If anyone is interested in any of these things, there are reputable platforms to discuss such things. CoH is a lot of things, but a pillar of fair intellectual debate, the general or team channel is not. And I don't care to see any of it.

 

Normally, I would just ignore and press on. But it is so wild, common, and rampant that ignoring people 1 by 1 isn't any help. Its whack-a-mole. You ignore one, 2 more pop up. This is especially bad on the raids. And on two occasions, it was the leader themselves as a source of it.

 

And I find it a bit illuminating that the some of the HC community seems more concerned with things like AE farming, than things like these being widely and openly discussed. Because Priorities?

 

2b - The behavior

-As an example, just last week I was on a Manticore TF. One person sped ahead as fast as they possibly could, running through spawns in an effort to complete missions as fast as possible, even finding the elevator before the entire team was on the map. I spoke out, as did two other people. To which I was told to go fornicate myself. So, I left. Immediately after I left, another person (NOT the speed runner) began to lecture me on how "I had no right" to abandon my group like that, which turned into a 20-minute tirade of me being "selfish" because of not wanting to indulge in the speedster's behavior, and how my leaving caused the two others to also leave.

 

I strongly dislike speed-running things. Unless I am with a group of friends, I pretty much clear every group of enemies. Because its money, drops, kind of the point of the TF in the first place, and whatnot. I dislike this gameplay so much that I have left other games because of it, namely ESO. Where "speeding" content is so bad that people are utterly unwilling to Tank it, which in turn leads to a shortage of tanks for high end content, where you can't just skip or bull rush things. The tank cues are so bad, its 4 hours or longer. When to me, it's a problem of their own creation. 

 

I have done TFs that I still don't know the story of. Even after almost 5 years of playing the game, I still don't know who the guy is on the Dam. I don't know the whole "its a nemesis plot!" thing. Many, many stories I have done several times, I have YET to get the context of. And at this point, I don't expect to get it.

 

2c - The unsolicited opinions and EPEEN

- "Oh, you took THAT power? THAT pool? What a scrub!" etc. "My pixels are so much better than YOUR pixels! Now bare witness to my GLORY! Watch, in AWE of my might! I beat that Elite boss .023 seconds faster than you did! Get with the META, scrub! Cold Domination or get out!" etc etc.

And yes, in some cases, it truly is that bad. Theme builds, are a thing. Builds "just for fun" are a thing. Taking powers you simply like, are a thing. Not everyone chases the META. Not everyone even CARES about the META. And I don't remember asking for the opinion of random pug player #0248592 for all the mathematical reasons of why I should not take powers like Enflame.

 

So, to address the Elephant in the room, let's NOT pretend that Pugging is a land of Milk and Honey, of Unicorns and Rainbows, where everything is GREAT and everyone gets along. To many of us, it is quite Toxic. Not everyone is toxic mind you, but "enough" of it is that if I was given no option to PUG or uninstall, I would immediately uninstall, because my dislike of the PUG community outweighs my like for the game. I would simply rather play alone, or with my friends. Both in AE and in open world content. And the more the narrative of "PUG TEAMING" is pushed/baited/bribed on me, the more I resent it. And if I want "story", I will just run Ouros, again, either alone or with friends.

 

Perhaps, just perhaps mind you, if people stopped focusing on what OTHER people are doing and focus on themselves and their own fun and enjoyment, things might calm down. But I wouldn't bet on that.

 

Lastly, new players, being confused even at maximum level, is HARDLY unique to CoH. It exists in nearly every game, even games without "rushing" or "power leveling." It's normal. To be expected. And if someone wants to rush-rush-rush to level 50, and THEN do content, then it is their prerogative to do so. And you can't FORCE them otherwise.

 

You can't "force" people to play with you, YOUR way. And the more you try to MAKE them, the more they will resent it. if you want more people to play YOUR way, the way YOU do, then give them options, and let them CHOOSE to do so.

 

Rant over.

Sounds like Everlasting alright, lol

[Skyhawke]

3 hours ago, Luminara said:

So... this isn't about sacrificing newbies to the old gods (and occasionally making sandwiches with the leftovers)?  I'm cool?

 

What happens in Dark Astoria, stays in Dark Astoria. 

[PeregrineFalcon]

29 minutes ago, Neiska said:

Lunar had it right, Everlasting. Not all of these happened in the last two weeks mind you, but they all happened in TFs and Raids. But yes, every one of those topics were openly discussed with all the casual conversation of "what is your favorite kind of cake?"

Meh. I've seen the same topics come up on Torchbearer, Gate of Madness (GW2) and Star Forge (SWTOR). The internet is what it is. Neither Everlasting, nor Excelsior, nor Illidan has a monopoly on people arguing and/or trolling.

 

33 minutes ago, Pleonast said:

Are new players having fun? Are they being discouraged by game systems catering to veteran players? Or, are they being scared off by the expectations of veteran players? 

This is important data. I do wish that the devs would devise a way to poll the new people and get the answers to some of these questions.

[Neiska]

Just now, PeregrineFalcon said:

Meh. I've seen the same topics come up on Torchbearer, Gate of Madness (GW2) and Star Forge (SWTOR). The internet is what it is. Neither Everlasting, nor Excelsior, nor Illidan has a monopoly on people arguing and/or trolling.

 

Oh, I agree. I have left other games for the same reasons. But the difference here is that much of that is actually against the rules, but I see no effort whatsoever to curtail the behavior, aside from people reporting. But as far as I can tell, that does little good. Because it just keeps happening. Frequently. 

 

So either -

A) They don't care. (I doubt this is the case.)

B) They take action, but said people just remake new free accounts and continue the behavior.

Or C) They do police it, but it does little good.

 

Because it is no exaggeration that anytime I get in the mood to do PUG activity, not a day goes by where something like that isn't said if not in Team or League chat, than in General chat.

[shortguy on indom]

Is post #1 being accusatory or meliorism or combo of both?

[Frostbiter]

The newcomer experience is mostly fine in CoH. Unless a newbie picks Praetoria or a Epic AT. Those are the only areas that need a bit more direction. We all made it through our newbie phases just fine without having our hands held too much. Maybe, maybe an auction house and invention system tutorial that comes earlier than level 10.

[Ukase]

2 hours ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

No. Children have short attention spans, adults do not.

Have you met this player base? 

So, my only question is this - what happens when whomever is behind City of Data, the HC Wiki stop doing what they do? Sure, there will still be some useful info - just like there is in the Paragon Wiki. 

But things are gonna change. That's really my only concern. I just want (heck for myself, if not the newer folks) access to current and accurate information. Granted, I can get that now, for the most part - but I'm taking it on faith the information I find is accurate. Not that inaccuracies on this stuff is a big deal - ultimately, it's still a game. It's just my preference to see it in game, so when someone asks "Where do I get X?", I can say, Click H for help, then press the X key to see. I won't have to tab out, look up X on the HC Wiki to be sure I'm giving the correct answer if I'm not certain. 

Now, I certainly understand your wanting to be able to see the information outside of game, so yeah, I get that, too. 

But having it in game, that's just something I'd appreciate for myself. Particularly for the long run. 

[arcane]

47 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

Meh. I've seen the same topics come up on Torchbearer, Gate of Madness (GW2) and Star Forge (SWTOR). The internet is what it is. Neither Everlasting, nor Excelsior, nor Illidan has a monopoly on people arguing and/or trolling.

Does it happen elsewhere? Yes. Am I prepared to bet money that it happens more on Everlasting? Yes. 
 

I’m not sure if it is coincidence or something to do with the idea of RP. There may be some common threads between people that really like to play pretend. 

[skoryy]

7 minutes ago, arcane said:

Does it happen elsewhere? Yes. Am I prepared to bet money that it happens more on Everlasting? Yes. 

 

Balmung.

 

At least the MSR is optional.  The Quicksand is the starter area.

 

EDIT: Nobody on Everlasting has ever bought a billboard, either!

Edited June 4 by skoryy

[Ukase]

1 hour ago, battlewraith said:

Lol maybe I'm on the wrong server. All they seem to talk about on excelsior lately is some Boss Baby movie and references to pandas.

That may be happening on Excelsior - but if it is, I've never heard. I've certainly seen more than a couple of characters with panda in their name, but that's always been true. I recently learned the costume creator now has in addition to the kitten on the shoulder, a very small panda as well. No idea why there's no parrot for the pirate folks. 

If the chance for panda references are scary, Indomitable is certainly a fine choice. 

[Eiko-chan]

4 minutes ago, Ukase said:

That may be happening on Excelsior - but if it is, I've never heard. I've certainly seen more than a couple of characters with panda in their name, but that's always been true. I recently learned the costume creator now has in addition to the kitten on the shoulder, a very small panda as well. No idea why there's no parrot for the pirate folks. 

AFAIK, the panda has been there as long as the kitten has.

[Herotu]

1.    There is a lot of information about enhancements, the emphasis on their importance is great, but it's all over the place and not concise enough.

There are enhancement secrets that only come out through chat:

Secret #1. You can only have 5 of the same enhancement bonus. e.g. 5% Accuracy to All Powers.

Secret #2. Enhancements with the word "Global" on them don't even need to be activated.

Secret #3. There are ATO enhancements that are perhaps worth buying (though they are very expensive) for your journey up to 50, when you can replace them with their L50 equivalents. 

Secret #4. Procs kinda work in Auto powers.

Secret #5. It's advisable to get either +End procs in Health and Stamina and/or End Mods in Stamina.

Secret #6. You probably need as many Luck of the Gambler 7.5% recharges in your build as you can (max 5 - see Secret #1).

I can't think of more, but I know they exist. Please enlighten me!

 

2.    New players aren't encouraged into the stories, content is rushed. There are many reasons, from Brute archetype having to remain in combat for it's core mechanic to powercreep to the problem of people not wanting to read text themselves, to groups not wanting to wait for someone to read text. Good luck with this Gordian Knot.
 

3.    Some contacts are objectively more interesting than others. Perhaps new players should be gently pointed towards the better ones?

 

In regard to some of the replies we've had above, I see a lot of people pushing back on changes to the game and always the same response, "I want choice, don't make the game more restrictive".  I want to counter these opinions in the following manner:

Groups of 8 ALWAYS fill. Nobody ever says "we are a 5 player group". 
Sure, we all have the option of maxing at 5, that's an option, but nobody ever EVER takes it. My point is that choice isn't taken when it's obviously sub-optimal. Who restricts themselves to Dual-Origin enhancements these days?
That's why when I see, "I want freedom", I read something else.

Edited June 4 by Herotu

[High_Beam]

[Neiska]

51 minutes ago, Herotu said:

 

Groups of 8 ALWAYS fill. Nobody ever says "we are a 5 player group". 
Sure, we all have the option of maxing at 5, that's an option, but nobody ever EVER takes it. My point is that choice isn't taken when it's obviously sub-optimal. Who restricts themselves to Dual-Origin enhancements these days?
That's why when I see, "I want freedom", I read something else.

 

 

Not always. Did a 4-man DFB. Plus people leave. And some people like myself prefer to stick to our own friends and people we know to team with, so we run content at less than 8 quite often.

 

And how is more choices bad?

[PeregrineFalcon]

1 hour ago, Ukase said:

Have you met this player base?

Yes. I recruited and ran PuGs for years on the retail servers and for the first couple of years on Homecoming. I am well acquainted with the CoH playerbase. In my experience, the vast majority are well adjusted adults who are just trying to kill skuls and have fun.

 

1 hour ago, Ukase said:

But having it in game, that's just something I'd appreciate for myself. Particularly for the long run. 

One of the things that I recommended, in a suggestions thread awhile back, was that the Homecoming devs add a "New Player Info" option to Ms. Liberty and Arbiter Richard (or whoever the trainer in Mercy Island is). This option would have a bunch of dialog like "How do Enhancements work", "What is the Rule of Five", "How do IOs work", "What is Bodyguard Mode", etc.

 

I still think that would be a very helpful and worthwhile addition to the game.

 

But the devs can't even get the power tooltips to show accurate info and you want them to take the time to thoroughly document everything in game? That would be a huge nightmare. And where would you place the access point to that info? The trainers? The University? Both? Wouldn't it just be better if all of the trainers had a dialog option that said "If you'd like to know more in depth info about everything go to the Homecoming Wiki?

[Greycat]

3 hours ago, Pleonast said:

Unless this game is welcoming to new players, it is going to shutdown. Again. I’m sure it’ll last ten more years. But twenty or thirty more? I don’t see it happening. 
 

Telling new players that they have to do this or that is not helpful. Especially the expectations that they learn all these game mechanics and systems. No one wants homework to play a game. 
 

The game needs to be easy to continue playing first and foremost. Everything else can be figured out later. Players don’t have to be good or effective, as long as it’s fun enough for them to keep logging in. 
 

Are new players having fun? Are they being discouraged by game systems catering to veteran players? Or, are they being scared off by the expectations of veteran players? 

 

The game *is* easy to continue playing.

 

As far as "homework to play the game," *every* game from Tic Tac Toe or checkers on up means you have to learn *something.* And then build on what you've learned. Whether it's "Oh, if I move this piece here, I can prepare to jump multiple pieces of the other guy's" in checkers, "If I play this card first and hold off on that other one, I can pull off a really neat combo" in any number of CCGs (Magic, Pokemon, Sorcery, whatever,) or "Slotting *this* is actually more helpful over here" in COH. Expecting to play a game without learning anything - including how this is *not* WoW or Destiny or some other game - isn't realistic.

 

(And as far as "20 or 30 more," it's just as likely to have most of us age out as it is for hardware to just not really support it any more short of some really hardcore retro guy running their own server saying "Gramps used to run this game" on... Holotwitch or YouBrainshare or whatever's running then. So saying "it won't last another 20 years" with or without conditions? *shrug* )

[Bionic_Flea]

22 hours ago, Herotu said:

but nobody ever EVER takes it.

 

Inaccurate.  LOTS of teams run at less than 8.  SSB requires four and only four as an example.  And plenty of players prefer to play in smaller teams of friends.

Edited June 5 by Bionic_Flea

[Herotu]

27 minutes ago, Bionic_Flea said:

 

Inaccurate.  LOTS of team run at less than 8.  SSB requires four and only four as an example.  And plenty of players prefer to play in smaller teams of friends.

Those aren't good examples. Firstly, the example of SSB is a cap imposed by the mechanics, as you state, so it's not an appropriate example.

Secondly, a small group of friends is cool and all, but it's again, not relevant to the circumstance I am describing above: NOBODY teams with a specifically self-imposed cap of less than 8.  The point being that although we are FREE to do so, we don't.

 

That's why I believe things like the SSB player requirement would be good in other areas of the game. It might even be good to reduce the regular cap of 8 to 5. There must be a reason newer games have smaller group caps, and I believe it's because you get more intimacy with smaller groups. Boom chicka wa wa.

But it ain't going to happen unless it's mandated.

Edited June 5 by Herotu

[Herotu]

1 hour ago, Neiska said:

 

 

Not always. Did a 4-man DFB. Plus people leave. And some people like myself prefer to stick to our own friends and people we know to team with, so we run content at less than 8 quite often.

 

And how is more choices bad?

I appreciate that your sub-8-person group was a thing, but they're not relevant to the example. I'm sure that if you could have got 8 within a reasonable timespan, you would have. Unless you decided to take 4 specific friends.

 

I'd be extremely surprised if you said "I'm taking 3 of the guild to DFB, who's coming?". Far more likely, you say 3 friends online and made a group with those. the point being that if you had more friends online, they'd come too. 

 

The point I'm trying to make is: There was no self-imposed cap.

[Neiska]

1 minute ago, Herotu said:

I appreciate that your sub-8-person group was a thing, but they're not relevant to the example. I'm sure that if you could have got 8 within a reasonable timespan, you would have. Unless you decided to take 4 specific friends.

 

I'd be extremely surprised if you said "I'm taking 3 of the guild to DFB, who's coming?". Far more likely, you say 3 friends online and made a group with those. the point being that if you had more friends online, they'd come too. 

 

The point I'm trying to make is: There was no self-imposed cap.

 

Bold of you to presume how many people are or are not online that I am willing to group with. I would rather go with a smaller group of friends, than a full team of randoms. I wouldn't call that a self-imposed cap per say, more of a group preference shared among friends.

 

But no, not everyone runs at 8 for all activities. Even PI groups don't always fill. Plenty of teams for TFs go with fewer than 8. So respectfully disagree there. YOUR groups might always be filled, but that is not the case for some of us, and for others like me, it's a rarity. 

[Apogee]

My team is always capped at 1.  It always seems to fill quickly too 

[Herotu]

10 minutes ago, Neiska said:

 

Bold of you to presume how many people are or are not online that I am willing to group with. I would rather go with a smaller group of friends, than a full team of randoms. I wouldn't call that a self-imposed cap per say, more of a group preference shared among friends.

 

But no, not everyone runs at 8 for all activities. Even PI groups don't always fill. Plenty of teams for TFs go with fewer than 8. So respectfully disagree there. YOUR groups might always be filled, but that is not the case for some of us, and for others like me, it's a rarity. 

My point is that when you don't fill a group, it's not because to decided that you'd place a predetermined arbitrary cap on the number of members, although you are FREE to do so.