How do we fail new players?

[battlewraith]

1 hour ago, ZemX said:

 

Just can't stop making shit up, can you?  I didn't call it an "honored path."  It's nothing more or less than MY advice.  Plain and simple.   If someone chooses to ignore it, how is it unreasonable of me to say that person who ignored my advice shouldn't come back to me with their complaints?  Sounds pretty reasonable to me.

 

That was satire, not making shit up. I was mocking the judgmental tone of it. 

 

Is your perspective on people taking your advice unreasonable? Not really.

 

What is?

1. Insisting on lumping all players into one box to fit how you feel people should learn the game.  ["I disagree that it depends all that much on the player."]

2. Ignoring that these discussions about how people should learn or experience the game are centered on baseless platitudes that have been around since PLing became a thing (ie from the beginning). I've never seen any evidence that it causes people to get bored and leave the game faster or there is some sort of epidemic of bad teaming from people who pled to 50 and don't know how to play. Neither of which is a problem now that the game is f2p. 

 

Now maybe you think I'm strawmanning you. You said people should spend "some" time playing.

 

Ok, how much time should they spend traditionally leveling. And how are you arriving at this amount?

 

 

[Neiska]

4 minutes ago, ZemX said:

 

Did they say they wanted it removed?  Did they say how they'd do it?  Was it even discussed?  Answer: No to all.  

 

Look, if someone comes along in this thread and says straight up they want it removed so they can force everyone to play their way, I will JOIN you in disagreeing with them.   The fact is, they haven't.  Not saying no one ever said it anywhere on these forums ever.  I would not be surprised if someone has.  But it's not being said HERE at least that I have seen.    Shit, this person you're talking about in this case... not my favorite person on these forums.  Pretty sure I am on that ignore list they like to boast about in their .sig.  But fair is fair.  They used the word "suggest" when saying what they'd tell new players.  And anyone is allowed to suggest.  In fact, none of us can really do more than that anyway.

 

 

What opinion of yours have I said you're not allowed to have?

 

 

If you're willing to explain what X, Y, and Z are and what the advantages/disadvantages are to each then great.  Otherwise this is not giving any useful information.  You can still say whatever you like, but it doesn't sound helpful.  

 

 

And?  First of all, not quite correct.  I've said more recently I think playing at least some of the way from 1 to 50 is fine too.  This is no more controversial than a tutorial or a game that gradually introduces abilities or game systems as you play.  The whole point is not to drop you in at max. level and say, "Okay, here's the whole game! Good luck!"   This is the advice I'd give people and they can take it or leave it.  I don't have to TELL people that.  If they are asking me for advice, it should be understood the decision is always theirs.  I don't need to add legal disclaimers on my opinions.

 

We wont agree on this. Continuing to debate is pointless.

[BlackSpectre]

I think what might be helpful for new players is a short description of COH that pops up in the GMOTD and some other venues with high visibility. 
 

in the description would be a short statement that basically says most of the playable content in the game occurs before level 50. 
 

it’s a true statement, objective, and helpful for those who are interested in playing the game’s adventures, missions, and storylines. No judgement or opinion needed or wanted.  It will help steer players toward experiencing more of the game, since it is true that in other games getting to max level is basically when the game takes flight. 
 

otherwise, a longer description could lay out most of the things commonly done in the game and their processes… doing missions, teaming, soloing, task forces and trials, AE, power leveling, farming, street clearing, flashback system, PVP, etc. A cornucopia of fun and interesting things to do!

[Snarky]

On 6/4/2024 at 12:33 AM, mechahamham said:

Over the recent long day weekend, I noticed a large uptick in new players. I answered as many questions as I could in /help and was as welcoming as I could be. However, I noticed some oddities that made me think we, as a community, are failing our newest members. We're doing things that harm them and NOT doing things that would help them.

Heck of a guilt complex there.  Meditate a bit.  

 

On the bright side you can help so many new players in desperate need.  For just millions a day you can help Snarky organize Posi 1 TFs to educate our newest members on teamwork.  Give now and let your worries go away.

[StarseedWarrior]

On 6/4/2024 at 5:08 AM, Neiska said:

Boy oh boy, I foresee absolutely no way that this topic might run off the rails. Gee, I sure hope people will refrain from being judgmental of how other people enjoy hobbies and understand that not everyone likes the same things. What can possibly go wrong?

 

Here is an unrelated image.

 

Another clueless who does not get mmorpgs are about the journey then the endgame newer modern mmos only do this instant grind to make money and degrede the mmo overtime lol.

[StarseedWarrior]

2 hours ago, battlewraith said:

 

That was satire, not making shit up. I was mocking the judgmental tone of it. 

 

Is your perspective on people taking your advice unreasonable? Not really.

 

What is?

1. Insisting on lumping all players into one box to fit how you feel people should learn the game.  ["I disagree that it depends all that much on the player."]

2. Ignoring that these discussions about how people should learn or experience the game are centered on baseless platitudes that have been around since PLing became a thing (ie from the beginning). I've never seen any evidence that it causes people to get bored and leave the game faster or there is some sort of epidemic of bad teaming from people who pled to 50 and don't know how to play. Neither of which is a problem now that the game is f2p. 

 

Now maybe you think I'm strawmanning you. You said people should spend "some" time playing.

 

Ok, how much time should they spend traditionally leveling. And how are you arriving at this amount?

 

 

Hard disagree ive watched this happen in countless mmos and people do leave in droves while they gain as massive amount of numbers they can you really do not know what your talking about with this. And it does effect the rest of the community that play mmos like this, city of heroes was never about pling anyway its a feature of homecoming its an mmo about the journey as much as the endgame. Also regardless of how someone wants to play an mmo it does not change the facts for example when people expect to solo and solo content to be catered to them when there are countless amazing single player games to be played.

 

Mmorpgs that arent manipulated for the most part keep the concept of an mmorpg to begin with its not an mmolite.

[battlewraith]

18 minutes ago, StarseedWarrior said:

Hard disagree ive watched this happen in countless mmos and people do leave in droves while they gain as massive amount of numbers they can you really do not know what your talking about with this. And it does effect the rest of the community that play mmos like this, city of heroes was never about pling anyway its a feature of homecoming its an mmo about the journey as much as the endgame. Also regardless of how someone wants to play an mmo it does not change the facts for example when people expect to solo and solo content to be catered to them when there are countless amazing single player games to be played.

 

Mmorpgs that arent manipulated for the most part keep the concept of an mmorpg to begin with its not an mmolite.

 

Bullshit. The biggest moment for me in terms of people leaving happened in the first year (2004). I had two mid sized sgs just basically get bored and quit because the content wasn't rolling out fast enough. Half of them went to WoW. I think that early period was the starkest decline for the population and there wasn't even AE yet. I don't know what "countless" means, but I played Age of Warhammer, WoW, Guild Wars 2, and SWTOR--and didn't see people leaving in droves because of pling in any of them. 

 

Pling was frowned on during the duration of the subscription years--because they wanted people to have to grind slowly to keep them paying. The fact that it was there kept certain demographics (min/maxers, farmers, pvpers) from going to other games. If you completely got rid of it right now, I'm pretty sure it would take a sizeable chunk out of the around 11k daily players you have right now.

 

There are tons of great single player games out there. There are tons of great multiplayer games out there as well. Games that are not based on design decisions and graphics engines that are 20 years old. So it's really bizarre to have people argue that there is a proper "mmorpg concept" that should be followed here. It's a sandbox as much as anything else and that's why it still works. 

[BlackSpectre]

45 minutes ago, StarseedWarrior said:

city of heroes was never about pling anyway its a feature of homecoming its an mmo about the journey as much as the endgame.

Actually, PLing was a big part of the game back on live. For the last 4 years before COH closed down in 2012, I was a power leveling fiend!

 

 PLing was much more lucrative back then. I made about 300 million inf per week selling my PLing services to players wanting to door sit.  Back then a fire/kin controller was considered the top tier Power Leveling build for a fire farm. The trick was to find the right mission to farm/repeat. I remember a circle of thorns mission with a portal that continuously spawned fire demons without end. Definitely an exploit and the devs put an end to that infinitely spawning portal. Then a different fire demon mission became the best PLing mission. As I recall, the devs put an end to that mission making it unrepeatable. Power levelers then switched focus from fire farms to smashing/lethal farms. At this time power leveling had mostly went underground. Players were advised not to talk about PLing in public or to any players they did not know personally.  It was still a thriving market and continued to have a lot of activity, but it was mostly under the radar. The Gestapo, I mean the anti-PLing and pro storyline/mmo league appeared to have the ear of the devs, and PLers were more and more berated and condemned… but that didn’t stop us, nor the thousands of players who paid for PLing services from us power leveling black marketeers. Obviously, PLing was something many players enjoyed and wanted to do in the game, but the devs and the storyline/mmo league wanted everyone to play the game their way… and only their way. It was a pretty oppressive atmosphere. Very fascist, anti-freedom, arrogant, and self righteous. talk about tyranny of the majority! And then the game shut down. 
 

Now, I have always enjoyed the storylines, teaming, and leveling toons up to 50 the old fashioned way… until around level 40 when the leveling slowed down to a crawl. After 40 I would alternately PL and do missions. 
 

but here on Homecoming the atmosphere is a lot more positive, accepting, and inclusive. People are just happy that other players want to play the game, and are happy to help them enjoy it any way they see fit to do so. I can’t imagine COH without PLing. It’s an important part of playing the game. But I also can’t imagine COH without storylines, missions, or role playing either. But that’s just me. Everyone has their own preferences. 

[Neiska]

7 hours ago, StarseedWarrior said:

Another clueless who does not get mmorpgs are about the journey then the endgame newer modern mmos only do this instant grind to make money and degrede the mmo overtime lol.

 

Oh, look. Another ad-hominem opinion who doesn't consider that not everyone enjoys playing a game the same way. I have played many mmorpgs, with far more lengthy and difficult "journeys." Everquest 1 and 2, Vanguard, Rift, and more. What you call "the journey" others call "needless time sink." It isn't that difficult to understand that many people simply do not like doing the same TFs over and over, or the same story contact missions over and over, or random radio missions for their "journey." To them it's a just a hamster wheel.

 

It isn't terribly difficult to acknowledge that some players may not like spending weeks and weeks leveling a character for every power combination they wish to try. For any number of reasons. This isn't considering that it could even be something as simple as - "I only have 2 hours a week to play. I have a wife, kids, career. I don't have as much free hobby time as I once did. But I still would like to try many different character builds."

 

Also, its "degrade."

 

3/10, seen much better. "lol."

[Luminara]

12 hours ago, Neiska said:

I don't know how to do multiple quotes form different people int he same post

 

Click the + next to Quote (it says MultiQuote if you move the pointer over it (Leeloo Dallas MultiQuote (Mull Tee Quote!))), on each post you want to quote.  Then click the little Quote button that pops up in the bottom-right corner.

[cranebump]

2 hours ago, Neiska said:

It isn't that difficult to understand that many people simply do not like doing the same TFs over and over, or the same story contact missions over and over, or random radio missions for their "journey." To them it's a just a hamster wheel.

 

It isn't terribly difficult to acknowledge that some players may not like spending weeks and weeks leveling a character for every power combination they wish to try. For any number of reasons.

I don’t think it’s difficult to understand, and if you want to do that, go ahead. But let’s admit this: a farm mish is as much a hamster wheel as anything else (maybe more so). Since the goal is only to try other power combinations, then one wheel is admittedly as good as another, because content doesn’t matter.* Which means all the work put into the city itself doesn’t matter. I find this just tragic, and would like new players to at least give the actual, whole game a chance, at least once, out of respect for what’s been built here. But you can’t enforce that. People gonna do what they gonna do. Including arguing incessantly over what the game’s end goal is, when we all know that the end goal is what each person thinks it is. It’s entirely subjective. That said, I think there’s more than enough advocates for the two major camps to present a new player with whatever information they might want in order to allow them to play their way. There’s a possibility they might try everything, as, I imagine, a lot of us do, and have. 

*If it really is just about character building, can’t a person instantly create and test such things using the beta tester? (Genuinely curious)

Edited June 11 by cranebump

[Ukase]

12 hours ago, Snarky said:

Give now and let your worries go away.

The Church of Snarky has services routinely throughout the day. 
 

[Herotu]

On 6/7/2024 at 11:03 PM, Greycat said:

Honestly, as someone who makes new alts, the new character experience kind of sucks, since you have a ton of "just frigging click to get this out of my way" windows thrown at you, and that *really* needs to be streamlined.

I hate popup boxes as much as the next bot, but ...
 

Streamlined as in creating story arcs that introduce new players to elements of the game? - people complain about Twinshot, but that's exactly what that is.

 

How else could it be streamlined? 

[ZemX]

2 hours ago, Luminara said:

Click the + next to Quote (it says MultiQuote if you move the pointer over it (Leeloo Dallas MultiQuote (Mull Tee Quote!))), on each post you want to quote.  Then click the little Quote button that pops up in the bottom-right corner.

 

Another way is to just select any text in any post and a button should appear at the end of the selection saying "Quote Selection".  Hitting it will add just the selected text from that post to the edit box at the bottom of the page wherever the insertion point was at the time.  Fast way to avoid quoting an entire rambling post.  Assuming that works on all browsers, that is.  Works on Chrome.

[Digirium]

The number of players across all the Homecoming servers is on a trajectory back to where it was before 1 Jan 2024.

 

We've been subject to a lot of new players playing again for the first time since sunset, or never played and wanted to try the game. There is a hardcore of players who keep this game alive that number certainly expanded due to the incursion of new players. I see no failure here only a pattern that was pretty much to be expected.

 

I am not going to tell another player how they should play the game.

 

Unless I am leading a team/league and Snarky joins!

[ZemX]

4 minutes ago, Digirium said:

I see no failure here only a pattern that was pretty much to be expected.

 

Agreed.  The OP is citing one anecdote and calling for change.   I don't bump into clueless 50s left and right when I play.  It does not seem a widespread problem to me either.  I have noticed them from time to time, but that's about it.  

 

Also, the change called for is unrealistic.  Farmers aren't all going to agree to stop advertising their farms and this would be tossing the baby out with the bathwater anyway.  This is a small issue.  It does not need convincing people to change their ways.   Sometimes the "What can we do to make this game easier to get into" discussions are interesting, but ultimately I think the power this game has to hold anyone's interest isn't going to easily get around its basic design.  It's a 20-year-old MMO and that's not changing drastically for a modern audience who may expect a more guided experience in their games.

[Seed22]

13 hours ago, StarseedWarrior said:

Another clueless who does not get mmorpgs are about the journey then the endgame newer modern mmos only do this instant grind to make money and degrede the mmo overtime lol.

Hey look! One of em took the bait. But seriously, a PSA for everyone out there: for YOU it may be about the journey, and that’s awesome! But remember, this isn’t a terribly active MMO developmentally speaking. The beginning that you keep praising? 20 years old at this point.
 

There aren’t that many new players I imagine who will look at it and go “oh boy this is great!” No, they’ll see how old and clunky and boring it is and either PL to 50 and run endgame/maybe some older stuff exemping, or quit. 
 

 

[Seed22]

13 hours ago, StarseedWarrior said:

Hard disagree ive watched this happen in countless mmos

No you haven’t

[tidge]

1 hour ago, ZemX said:

Agreed.  The OP is citing one anecdote and calling for change.   I don't bump into clueless 50s left and right when I play.  It does not seem a widespread problem to me either.  I have noticed them from time to time, but that's about it. 

 

I haven't noticed more announcements from "AE farmers" or "PI lvl 50 teams" or calls from "Sitter looking for Farm"... although I have identified a couple of new players who seem to make this same request for many of their new characters.

 

The only behaviors I've seen bordering on "clueless" for level 50s have been somewhat unique:

• Sentinels not using Vulnerability, even though this is a new-ish mechanic, I would have expected a character that played an hour or so to have at least tried it.
• A player using broadcast channels complaining how weak their character was, and them refusing to invite players with the same AT to demonstrate their play style.

The second bullet point was IMO borderline trolling, as the specific complaints being made did not align with multiple other players' experiences (including my own). That specific player's complaints also appeared to have their origins in relying on an ancient early-Live era "build guide" that promised them awesomeness they couldn't achieve by using outdated advice. So in that case, the player in question certainly didn't self-diagnose as a "clueless newbie".

[Pleonast]

19 hours ago, Neiska said:

I leveled 3 different characters, all to high 20s mid 30s, and got frustrated at the pace and sense of "lack of reward" for my time.

This. Power-leveling isn’t a problem. The problem is the “hump” in missions in the upper level range. Characters have the choices of 

1: Persevering through the hump. 
2: Spend millions of influence upgrading their enhancements to make the hump less harsh. 
3: Power leveling past the hump. 
 

I'm sure we all have preferences for which option we take our own characters. My concern is that too many new players try option 1, get frustrated, and quit. 

[Ghost]

1 hour ago, Seed22 said:
 

There aren’t that many new players I imagine who will look at it and go “oh boy this is great!” No, they’ll see how old and clunky and boring it is and either PL to 50 and run endgame/maybe some older stuff exemping, or quit. 
 

 

MODS!!

[tidge]

55 minutes ago, Pleonast said:

This. Power-leveling isn’t a problem. The problem is the “hump” in missions in the upper level range.

 

I'll repeat: There are plenty of ways for players, old and new, to ease past this "hump", should they ask:

1. 2xp
2. Patrol XP (easily gained through exploration badges)
3. Teaming up... there are almost always TFs and SFs being formed
4. Running lower level arcs through Ouroboros, or Safeguards/Mayhems, or Tips
5. Turning up spawn size (mileage will vary depending on the character)

Combining just the first two, and playing some missions, makes leveling rather speedy.

 

"New" players may not know this, but many of the accolades are to be had by playing 35+ content. Those aren't things that can be earned by door-sitting.

[Sanguinesun]

15 hours ago, StarseedWarrior said:

  city of heroes was never about pling anyway its a feature of homecoming its an mmo about the journey as much as the endgame 

 

Uh, power leveling on live before even IO's existed and certainly before AE existed was most certainly a common thing.  It was so common back in the day that people used to list pay-for pleveling on Ebay, before Ebay squelched that.   People used to let kins ride free or let them run their kin then get same amount of time free for an alt of theirs from a tank farmer(ole burn tanks even then), using the mish to herd werewolves into the shipping container as just one example(there were others).

 

So yeah, sorry, but you're wrong on that point.

Edited June 11 by Sanguinesun

[Sanguinesun]

1 hour ago, Pleonast said:

This. Power-leveling isn’t a problem. The problem is the “hump” in missions in the upper level range. Characters have the choices of 

1: Persevering through the hump. 
2: Spend millions of influence upgrading their enhancements to make the hump less harsh. 
3: Power leveling past the hump. 
 

I'm sure we all have preferences for which option we take our own characters. My concern is that too many new players try option 1, get frustrated, and quit. 

 

I teach mostly players in game on how to make all of that very much a non issue practically weekly and tidge touched on some of what I impart actually. However, not all choose to use that information either.

 

However yes, as I made in a post earlier in this thread, the information gap that exists in the game due to its steep learning curve and collective 20 year feature creep can be a discouragement for new/returnees and often by a very unfortunate segment of the player base, its considered to be meant to be an intentional filter/initiation that those folks seemingly are very adamant about keeping going. 

Edited June 11 by Sanguinesun

[Luminara]

1 hour ago, Pleonast said:

1: Persevering through the hump. 
2: Spend millions of influence upgrading their enhancements to make the hump less harsh. 
3: Power leveling past the hump.

 

Also applicable to trophy wives and sugarbabies.