"No Transformation" option for HEATs

[Glacier Peak]

6 minutes ago, Greycat said:

 

. <----- the point.                                                                                                                                                                you---------->.

Oh mystic Cosmic gate keeper, oh mighty Kheldian decider of cosmetic only features that don't affect other players, please lend me your approval so that I may play with squid tentacles coming out of my Kheldians' back instead of shape shifting entirely as thus. 

 

Edit: Added Emojis so that you can see I'm poking fun. 🔱😈🙈🙊🙉

Edited June 16 by Glacier Peak
Since I can just type that edit in to absolve myself

[Greycat]

Just now, Glacier Peak said:

Oh mystic Cosmic gate keeper, oh mighty Kheldian decider of cosmetic only features that don't affect other players, please lend me your approval so that I may play with squid tentacles coming out of my Kheldians' back instead of shape shifting entirely as thus. 

 

Annnd... on the ignore list you go.

[Ghost]

9 minutes ago, Greycat said:

 

 

 

And "a little bit less difficulty" and "oh voids are too hard, tone them down" and "oh, I don't know how to deal with Cysts, turn them down/off" and "You say there's a lot to them but why do I have to wait to play them" and "Oh, MINE's an angel, I shouldn't have to be natural origin" and... and...and... until we get to "Why were Khelds a thing again?" Already sliding down that slope.

Actually, where we would end up is….

People get what they want (full Kheld powers w/ no transformation)

Followed by those same people looking around and saying “what next?”

Ultimately ending with the same people starting a thread suggesting that Khelds should have to transform to use certain powers.

 

Edited June 16 by Ghost

[Vic Raiden]

Okay, sorry for making a dumb, purely cosmetic suggestion in the first place.

 

Could you all PLEASE stop arguing over everything else pertaining to HEATs? Ideally ASAP?

[Greycat]

Just now, Ghost said:

Actually, where we would end up is….

People get what the want (full Kheld powers w/ no transformation)

Followed by those same people looking around and saying “what next?”

Ultimately ending with the same people starting a thread suggesting that Khelds should have to transform to use certain powers.

 

 

I'm 100% serious when I say a lot of this would be handled and some of those folks who've wanted this and other changes would probably find *exactly* what they want as a sentinel.  OK, argue about numbers or whatever, but they have armor, mez protection, blasts, melee, depending on what you build they can be OK off-tanks, you always look the same, there are no special enemies, etc.

 

"But then there wouldn't be as many Khelds" might be a counterargument, but... I'd rather people play something they're *happy* with versus continually hammering away at Khelds to force them into some other mold, taking away anything special about Khelds. Form switching without forms is just Bio armor armor types or Dual pistols ammo types. Meh. If that's what I saw way back when I first got interested in Khelds? I don't think I'd have been anywhere near as interested.

 

Go ahead, *propose* an AT or powerset that switches between "offense/balance/defense" with button options like that. All for it. Could be interesting. Then people who want mode switching without form switching (and the slotting complexity and such that go with it) can play that and be perfectly happy. Hell, it'd fit some of *my* characters better that are other ATs.

[Vic Raiden]

On the other hand, the default assumption for the ATs was that the player character was an ordinary civilian nobody prior to merging with his or her Kheld partner, be it voluntarily (thus, Peacebringers were Natural-origin by default) or as a result of a mad science experiment (thus, Warshades were Science-origin by default).

 

EDIT: No, I'm not objecting to the origin limitation being lifted.

Edited June 16 by Vic Raiden

[Greycat]

7 minutes ago, Vic Raiden said:

On the other hand, the default assumption for the ATs was that the player character was an ordinary civilian nobody prior to merging with his or her Kheld partner, be it voluntarily (thus, Peacebringers were Natural-origin by default) or as a result of a mad science experiment (thus, Warshades were Science-origin by default).

 

Slightly off with that.

 

The Peacebringers (who I'm going to refer to as just "kheldian," as they're the unaltered version) basically have the abilities they'd have regardless - doesn't matter who or what they've merged with. The Nictus altered themselves to feed off the life energy of those Kheldians. (Thus the science origin.)

 

Merging is ... mostly philosophical. The Peacebringers could very well force themselves onto a host - it wouldn't change their abilities. They just don't, given their history. They look for a voluntary merging, temporarily or permanently. Nictus tend to take what they want, whether it's temporary (having allies keeping weakened hosts for them to live in and regain their strength after emerging from travelling via Cyst, for instance) or permanent. They may not necessarily *force* their way in like they tried to do in one of the Kheld arcs (forcibly taking over city officials and finding PBs there waiting for them,) but they'll also try to gain a host and take them over by guile. That doesn't affect their powers.

 

Warshades, of course, give up the conquest mindset of the Nictus and try to join willing hosts instead.

 

 

(Couldn't help myself. You made a lore comment. And I am after all the person who dug into all this to write up the Kheld backstory guide back in the day and updated it for quite a bit. Keep planning on writing a 2.0 to clean some stuff up...)

Edited June 16 by Greycat

[Ghost]

35 minutes ago, Vic Raiden said:

Okay, sorry for making a dumb, purely cosmetic suggestion in the first place.

 

Could you all PLEASE stop arguing over everything else pertaining to HEATs? Ideally ASAP?

Nah

The arguing is okay.

Its when people take themselves too seriously and attack the individual (if you don’t believe this, your stupid.  Or, I’m reporting everyone who disagrees. Etc) instead of just sticking to the why or why not, that things get ugly.

 

We all have things we want to see in the game.  Suggest them. That’s what this is for.

We may not agree with you, but at the end of the day - who cares?

This would be a boring world if we all had the exact same likes/dislikes.

[Blastit]

The regular ATs are supposed to be flexible and allow for a wide range of explanations as to what the powersets actually are. A fire set can be recoloured to represent any odd chemical or mystical reaction, for example. An AT is supposed to express a particular playstyle or small range of playstyles and as long as a set accomplishes that you're good. That's why having options between eyebeams or no eyebeams is just fine, some wiggle room is necessary to allow for a large range of non-playstyle concepts of how the powers even work.

 

The EATs, by contrast, were designed with a singular explanation for what their powers are and what they fundamentally do. The idea was that if you were more specific you could create powers that simply wouldn't fit into most concepts. Shapeshifting to alien hover-squids and lobster-ogres is about as specific as it gets and therefore are some of the most unique powers in the game. Putting in wiggle-room here just waters down the vision and that's what annoys people. They want the integrity of artistic and design vision to be preserved.

 

So if you like Kheldian stuff but don't want to do shapeshifting? Let's add Peacebringer and Warshade ancillary pools to the normal ATs that you can unlock via a trial or storyline. That'd be pretty cool.

[Troo]

23 hours ago, Vic Raiden said:

Wow... Just wow. All I did was make a simple cosmetic suggestion, and now look what it spiralled out into.

 

slow forum day

 

hey, the market works better now so.. have at it!

[Oubliette_Red]

17 hours ago, Videra said:

 

? ? ?

I have genuinely no idea what you're trying to say, here. How does other sets and ATs - alongside incarnates existing - being better, mean that the current state of kheldians is okay?

More-over, why are you trying to use this incredibly perplexing non-argument to shoot down a cosmetic change? Give Khelds min-fx forms while buffing their numbers, shrimple as. They don't actually need a full rework, contrary to popular belief, they simply need the ability to perform similarly to how they do now with Changeling.

 

16 hours ago, Rudra said:

Okay, this is a derailment and I apologize for it, but can someone please explain what you mean by changeling? I thought it was just another way of saying tri-form, but this discussion shows it obviously is not.

 

16 hours ago, ScarySai said:

I have no idea why people who don't play khelds feel the need to derail a thread that doesn't affect them.

 

This happens every time, it's getting old. I'm just going to start reporting people who do it.

 

Any replies that don't have any direct relation with the OP, or the thread title should be ignored.

 

I'd say in excess of 3/4's of the thread has been a derailment. Folks bringing up toggles and scaling with regards to a purely cosmetic request.

 

[GM_GooglyMoogly]

Hey you two (you know who you are), knock it off.  You know the drill: stick to commenting on the topic, not on each other.

 

 

Edited June 16 by GM_GooglyMoogly

[Triumphant]

5 hours ago, Ghost said:

Ah yes - silence those who oppose you/have differing views.  Now where have I heard that before.

 

Since you are all knowing, who in this thread doesn’t play a Kheld?  (besides @Rudra)
Do we now need to post pics of our toons in threads before we participate?

Or should we send them directly to you?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I may find your stance on stealth effects a bit silly, but I agree with you on this one, Ghost.  This is a public forum.  You have a right to reply to any forum post and participate in any topic, as a member of this forum, as long as you abide by the forum rules. 

Edited June 16 by Triumphant

[biostem]

2 hours ago, Greycat said:

Go ahead, *propose* an AT or powerset that switches between "offense/balance/defense" with button options like that.

I know this is only a small segment of your entire post, but I just wanted to comment that this basically describes playing a DP/Bio Sentinel or Staff/Bio Scrapper...

[ScarySai]

2 hours ago, Oubliette_Red said:

I'd say in excess of 3/4's of the thread has been a derailment. Folks bringing up toggles and scaling with regards to a purely cosmetic request.

 

Evidently, that's not a problem worth moderating.

 

Somehow a cosmetic idea became a balance concern, apparently people don't know what minfx means.

 

You'd still have to use the shapeshift powers, you would just not visually change if we go off the minfx idea ingame, or the much cooler jojo stands idea.

Edited June 16 by ScarySai
Typo

[Ghost]

49 minutes ago, Triumphant said:

 

I may find your stance on stealth effects a bit silly, but I agree with you on this one, Ghost.  This is a public forum.  You have a right to reply to any forum post and participate in any topic, as a member of this forum, as long as you abide by the forum rules. 

Stick around.  
I’ll definitely say more things you find silly 🙂

[tidge]

6 hours ago, Greycat said:

 

And whenever I read something about this - about any AT - I have to say... "So what?"

 

You seriously misunderstand *my* point about map clear times. I make the point NOT because I think faster map times are better, I make the point because RELATIVE map clear times are a viable metric for how different ATs play the same content.

 

Any AT can be taken through missions at a snail's pace, but the AT that can't stay within a factor of three of other ATs is IMO working from a seriously hampered position.

[megaericzero]

@Greycat please help me understand why the suggestion subtracts from HEATs.

 

The suggestion was purely cosmetic, so characters would play 100% the same way they do currently.

And, at least as far as I can tell, no one said to take away the current squid and lobster forms.

 

What if I want to play a budding Kheldian who has trouble getting their form up so only partially transforms? Or a wizard who stole a Nictus' powers, becoming a Warshade whose forms are ghostly outlines around their still-humanoid body?

 

I agree with you wholeheartedly on the mechanical stuff - Voids should've remained a threat, a level requirement would be fine as a bar/filter so new players can't hop right into such a complex archetype without knowing, etc.

What I need help seeing is what's lost by adding more freedom for players to express themselves. The Epic (story) and gameplay of HEATs would be untouched. That's what they are, right - the story?

 

 

 

(Unrelated but if you were saying in your earlier post that SOA were originally gender-locked, slight correction: they weren't, at least not by full release. The campy official trailer for them had the Longbow drill sergeant narrator cite that fact. Also, the live forums had a field day with the huge model blood widow, nicknaming them Widow Thunderthighs.)

 

 

[ScarySai]

Is it really a stretch to say the being of pure energy can just shoot energy regardless of the form they choose to adopt?

 

We have the human powers, so you can't really cite lore as a counterargument there. The fact they are tuned like garbage at best, and fully redundant at worst is a completely different issue altogether, and this thread doesn't need more cans of worms opened.

[Ghost]

37 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

Is it really a stretch to say the being of pure energy can just shoot energy regardless of the form they choose to adopt?

 

 

Then why not play an energy blaster

[ScarySai]

[Videra]

Casually trying to get this one back on topic, Min-FX Forms! A must. I'd even like to see the whole 'Jojo Stands' idea, honestly. Having your form - intangible - behind you or hovering above you and animating their attack in sync? That would be really cool! 🙂

[CrusaderDroid]

3 minutes ago, Videra said:

Casually trying to get this one back on topic, Min-FX Forms! A must. I'd even like to see the whole 'Jojo Stands' idea, honestly. Having your form - intangible - behind you or hovering above you and animating their attack in sync? That would be really cool! 🙂

The only reasonable explanation to deny Stands is because it's actually part of a separate power set and it would diminish the uniqueness of that set. Either way, it's a really cool SFX that I think might be relatively easy to implement - sounds like a good idea to me.

[Triumphant]

3 hours ago, Ghost said:

Stick around.  
I’ll definitely say more things you find silly 🙂

 

Well, sure.  And I'm certain that people find my own stances on certain topics equally ridiculous, at times.  There's nothing wrong with disagreeing.  There's nothing wrong with healthy debate.  So long as it doesn't devolve into outright petty meanness and indiscriminate insults, it's all good.  Forums exist for the free exchange of ideas and I would not want that to change.

 

Also, just for the record, I want to be very clear:  The fact that I disagree with any of  you on any particular subject, does  NOT mean that I personally dislike you.  When I respond to a particular post on these forums, it's because I have definite strong opinions about THAT topic.

 

Topics where players are trying to advocate for a particular position that forces other players to play the game a certain way are an exception to this, of course.  I take that very personally (as indeed, IMO, I should).

Edited June 16 by Triumphant

[ScarySai]

17 minutes ago, Videra said:

Casually trying to get this one back on topic, Min-FX Forms! A must. I'd even like to see the whole 'Jojo Stands' idea, honestly. Having your form - intangible - behind you or hovering above you and animating their attack in sync? That would be really cool! 🙂

 

It would be beyond hype.