Five ideas to make missions more tolerable

[temnix]

The missions in this game are often a torture. Sometimes it is only because of old graphics, weird surfaces and confusing polygons, but often it is because of poor design like bending tunnels one has to squint at the map to follow, vast areas irrelevant to the mission's objectives, infinite waves of reinforcements, overpowered enemies popping up out of nowhere twenty feet away (to run up to the character and instantly explode - that's my favorite). Reusing maps is a part of the problem and produces much boredom. Besides that, many maps are simply too big. It isn't fun to plow through three enormous levels to get to the end objective, let alone clear them out. Compared to this early missions are compact and lovely. Mission objectives, too, need to be unequivocal: if the character needs to find a computer file, don't make it turn out that every enemy has to be put down as well. What Homecoming with their limited resources ultimately needs to do is call on players who have designed so many Architect missions to draw up new maps and fix egregiously bad design. They will jump at the chance to contribute. I can think of five more particular changes to make missions less confusing, dreary and in turns onerous and infuriating.

 

1) Footsteps for all creatures. At the moment only player characters make sounds while running or walking. Even a huge Warwulf prances over the terrain like a phantom. Though most enemies stand still, some do saunter back and forth. Hearing their footsteps would make finding them to complete mission objectives simpler, spice up combat and help make the world less of a lonely illusion. Pedestrian NPC should also clomp, adding to the ambience.

 

2) Innocents to be rescued (hostages, scientists etc.) should make noise the same as glowies. In their case yelps, shrieks, sobs, moans and terrified chatter of teeth makes sense.

 

3) There should be two versions of both this sound and the glowie hum, one louder than the other, and the Options menu should include a choice of which set to play. That way objectives can be found more easily without subjecting the neighbors to an audial Let's Play.

 

4) A prestige power called Divining Rod should orient the character in the direction of the nearest glowie or NPC, regardless of distance across the map. He can triangulate from there.

 

5) Another should announce the player character's presence to all enemies within a good range. This can take the form of a bugle, trumpet, best of all a war horn. The effect, reaching through walls, would not taunt the enemies, but it would count as an attack, making them, as usual when attacked, swarm towards the player from every unnoticed gangplank, cornice, crook of the tunnel, back side of dead end and so on.

 

P. S. I have also suggested before to link Architect missions at random to entrances without missions, "You cannot enter" ones, at some probability. That way a hero/villain will always find something to do by rapping on a few doors, checking a few sewer grates and manhole lids. As I imagine it, the entrance would show a brief description as an invitation, like "You see some Hellions loading suspicious crates," and if the player declined the adventure, that mission would be rotated out and the entrance "emptied" to this character for some minutes, to avoid picking-and-choosing. He would need to search around for another for a new roll on the wheel. Internally it should be an opt-out system, the box checked by default when uploading a mission to Architect. Missions with, let's say, 3-star ratings and better on Architect would qualify, and the author's name would be displayed somewhere on the minimap and in the completion message. Ideally the character would get to rate the mission at that point. In that way talented designers would get more exposure among players not interested in the environment of Architect.

[CrusaderDroid]

1 hour ago, temnix said:

1) Footsteps for all creatures. At the moment only player characters make sounds while running or walking. Even a huge Warwulf prances over the terrain like a phantom. Though most enemies stand still, some do saunter back and forth. Hearing their footsteps would make finding them to complete mission objectives simpler, spice up combat and help make the world less of a lonely illusion. Pedestrian NPC should also clomp, adding to the ambience.

But if the enemies you're looking for aren't moving, this is useless.

 

This is still useless anyways, it's not a stealth game. Just mash tab if you're trying to find targets.

 

1 hour ago, temnix said:

2) Innocents to be rescued (hostages, scientists etc.) should make noise the same as glowies. In their case yelps, shrieks, sobs, moans and terrified chatter of teeth makes sense.

I'm thinking it's probably easier to git gud than it is to expect the volunteers to add entirely new audio engineering and programming to accommodate skill issues.

 

Even if we remove dev effort as a valid argument (and tbh we should always do that - a good idea is good regardless of time investment), this isn't a horror game either, and some of those sounds are too quiet to be heard well. Not just that, but if you're listening to any audio at all, it's probably going to be your powers going off all the time, along with the rest of your team.

 

If finding things is that hard for you, stop playing by yourself and announce in LFG you're making a mission team. It's pretty easy to find glowies and NPCs with 4 players, let alone 8.

 

1 hour ago, temnix said:

3) There should be two versions of both this sound and the glowie hum, one louder than the other, and the Options menu should include a choice of which set to play. That way objectives can be found more easily without subjecting the neighbors to an audial Let's Play.

Whatever.

 

1 hour ago, temnix said:

4) A prestige power called Divining Rod should orient the character in the direction of the nearest glowie or NPC, regardless of distance across the map. He can triangulate from there.

Most maps aren't big enough for this to be an issue, and if you have a certain amount of glowies as an objective, your map will reveal the location of the last one.

 

Of the maps that are big enough, their location tends to be relatively fixed or predictably set, e.g. 80% of the way into the map.

 

1 hour ago, temnix said:

5) Another should announce the player character's presence to all enemies within a good range. This can take the form of a bugle, trumpet, best of all a war horn. The effect, reaching through walls, would not taunt the enemies, but it would count as an attack, making them, as usual when attacked, swarm towards the player from every unnoticed gangplank, cornice, crook of the tunnel, back side of dead end and so on.

Try a Savage Melee/Shield Defense Brute. You get two charging attacks, it'll be fun. It'll also let you do most of this without the need for a bunch of code to satisfy one player who can't look past their own experience to think about whether other players would appreciate the same things.

 

1 hour ago, temnix said:

P. S. I have also suggested before to link Architect missions at random to entrances without missions, "You cannot enter" ones, at some probability. That way a hero/villain will always find something to do by rapping on a few doors, checking a few sewer grates and manhole lids.

How loathsome. Now misclicks or curious clicks can waste two loading screens' worth of time on random. Even if you were to go looking for this deliberately, since there's no quality control you're just as likely to get FIRE FARM CATASTROPHE 2.1 as you are a story that might resemble something related to your current zone.

[Greycat]

2 hours ago, temnix said:

1) Footsteps for all creatures. At the moment only player characters make sounds while running or walking. Even a huge Warwulf prances over the terrain like a phantom. Though most enemies stand still, some do saunter back and forth. Hearing their footsteps would make finding them to complete mission objectives simpler, spice up combat and help make the world less of a lonely illusion. Pedestrian NPC should also clomp, adding to the ambience.

 

So. Solo, most groups are 2-3, on base settings. Up those settings or get onto a team, enemy groups get bigger. Now, on top of all of YOUR teammates' footsteps, powers, pet noises, etc, you now have a hallway with hundreds of enemies in it... all making footstep noises.

 

Your desired COH experience thus sounds like:

 

 

... but without the music. Constantly.

 

No thanks.

 

2 hours ago, temnix said:

4) A prestige power called Divining Rod should orient the character in the direction of the nearest glowie or NPC, regardless of distance across the map. He can triangulate from there.

 

 

One, a power called Divining Rod already exists in game. You should pay attention.

 

Two, this sounds extremely annoying. Have you *paid attention* to the maps at all? Aside from the multi-floor maps, of which there are many, the game also "counts" things like Council jail doors and COT crystals as "enemies" (just watch them show up on the map.) There are also maps where rescued NPCs don't go anywhere, maps with civilians running around that have nothing to do with the mission -

 

In short, this would be far less useful than you think.

 

2 hours ago, temnix said:

5) Another should announce the player character's presence to all enemies within a good range. This can take the form of a bugle, trumpet, best of all a war horn. The effect, reaching through walls, would not taunt the enemies, but it would count as an attack, making them, as usual when attacked, swarm towards the player from every unnoticed gangplank, cornice, crook of the tunnel, back side of dead end and so on.

 

 

This is probably the singularly most laughable idea I've heard this year.  How utterly ridiculous. You're aware (obviously not so why am I asking) there are missions that...require you NOT to get the attention of enemies? Or that there are ATs and powersets that don't handle "EVERYONE RUSH THEM!" very well? Or that not everyone does capped-everything builds? Or that some people *want* to be able to stealth through some missions? This would take that option away from them. Horrible idea.

 

2 hours ago, temnix said:

P. S. I have also suggested before to link Architect missions at random to entrances without missions, "You cannot enter" ones, at some probability.

 

If I want AE missions, I'll *go to the AE.* Just like if I want PVP, I'll go to a PVP zone or the arena.

Do I think AE designers should have the *option* of setting outside doors as mission entrances? Yes.

Do I think you should just randomly end up in an AE mission because you happened to click a door? Hell no. Horrible idea. What missions you go into should be *completely at the player's discretion.* Repeating a bad idea does not make it any better of an idea.

[biostem]

2 hours ago, temnix said:

he missions in this game are often a torture.

The "blue pancake cave" notwithstanding, most missions are actually quite straightforward - Kill all, Kill named boss & surrounding group(s), collect X glowies, escort an NPC out.  Yeah - this ain't a "Next-Gen" game, but if you're here for that, then you're doing something wrong.  In general, could things like finding glowies use some TLC?  Of course, but I don't think your suggestions are the best way to go about doing that...

[Triumphant]

While I am not really interested in implementing most of the OP's suggestions, I must admit that this has always irritated me to no end: 

Quote

Mission objectives, too, need to be unequivocal: if the character needs to find a computer file, don't make it turn out that every enemy has to be put down as well.

 

Yeah, I agree, actually.  It's quite irritating that my objective is to retrieve the Liquid Computer (or whatever), but when I sneak past the guards, find the McGuffin, and grab said McGuffin without attracting any attention, I still have to go ambush and kill guards, instead of just being able to sneak out.  If you want to force me to fight, at least put guards with high perception right next to the McGuffin, so that engaging them makes sense.

 

Or... yeah, change the mission objective description to:  Steal the McGuffin and kill "X" number of guards.  Still doesn't make any sense, but at least you're being clear and consistent.

[Rudra]

54 minutes ago, Greycat said:

3 hours ago, temnix said:

1) Footsteps for all creatures. At the moment only player characters make sounds while running or walking. Even a huge Warwulf prances over the terrain like a phantom. Though most enemies stand still, some do saunter back and forth. Hearing their footsteps would make finding them to complete mission objectives simpler, spice up combat and help make the world less of a lonely illusion. Pedestrian NPC should also clomp, adding to the ambience.

 

So. Solo, most groups are 2-3, on base settings. Up those settings or get onto a team, enemy groups get bigger. Now, on top of all of YOUR teammates' footsteps, powers, pet noises, etc, you now have a hallway with hundreds of enemies in it... all making footstep noises.

 

Your desired COH experience thus sounds like:

 

 

... but without the music. Constantly.

 

No thanks.

I don't think this specific idea is as bad as it is being portrayed for most missions. Most mobs in the game don't do any moving around unless there is something they have aggroed on. I would be more concerned about how sounds in the game stack for volume rather than mix as well. So if the footsteps stack rather than mix, you wind up with potentially very painfully loud footsteps. Especially on maps with lots of running around in fear NPCs. And even if the sound effect did not stack for volume but instead mixed? Then on those maps you wind up with a near machinegun effect of footsteps, which would be equally annoying. So I agree it should not be implemented, but I don't think it is as bad as it is being portrayed except on specific missions.

 

Edit: Well, until you have a team of pet users... then it can get pretty bad on every map.... ... ... ... I sit corrected. Sorry.

 

Edited June 26 by Rudra
Edited to correct misplaced period. And again to remove redundant "the".

[Rudra]

2 hours ago, temnix said:

What Homecoming with their limited resources ultimately needs to do is call on players who have designed so many Architect missions to draw up new maps and fix egregiously bad design.

How does having experience choosing from premade maps to generate a custom mission/arc translate to being able to generate whole new maps with no geometry breaks/holes of any size? (Edit: Making a map for a game like CoX is no small task. It isn't like SG base construction where you start with a set floor and just add premade objects. And even that can get tricky depending on what you are trying to do.)

 

Edited June 26 by Rudra

[biostem]

40 minutes ago, Triumphant said:

Yeah, I agree, actually.  It's quite irritating that my objective is to retrieve the Liquid Computer (or whatever), but when I sneak past the guards, find the McGuffin, and grab said McGuffin without attracting any attention, I still have to go ambush and kill guards, instead of just being able to sneak out.

The thing is, mission objectives *should* be a bit hazy, if there's a good in-universe reason for it - like a contact that doesn't have all the information on the enemy they're sending you against, or enemies that change their objectives "on the fly".  What they should do, however, is to increase the mission rewards for each "curveball" they throw at you...

[kelika2]

are chat bubbles dynamic here?  i cant recall

like if someone cries for help on your left the chat bubble will point where its coming from

[Rudra]

10 minutes ago, kelika2 said:

are chat bubbles dynamic here?  i cant recall

like if someone cries for help on your left the chat bubble will point where its coming from

They are. I use ambush chat bubbles to locate where they are coming from. The thing to watch out for though is if they are set up to constantly call for help or whatever. The constant chat spam was exceedingly annoying with Benevolabs for instance.

[biostem]

I would like some visual directional indicators for glowies, (if for no other reason than if you are hearing impaired)...

[megaericzero]

58 minutes ago, biostem said:

The thing is, mission objectives *should* be a bit hazy, if there's a good in-universe reason for it - like a contact that doesn't have all the information on the enemy they're sending you against, or enemies that change their objectives "on the fly".  What they should do, however, is to increase the mission rewards for each "curveball" they throw at you...

Update the nav with new objectives as they become relevant (or once all others are completed), especially in the case of missions that the wikis list with the "it doesn't say but this is secretly a defeat all" disclaimer. Even if it's as general as "further question mooks," "arrest remaining wrongdoers," or "leave no witnesses."

Edited June 26 by megaericzero

[PeregrineFalcon]

Your suggestions are good, and many of them have been suggested before.

 

5 hours ago, temnix said:

The missions in this game are often a torture.

However, if this is really how you feel about the missions then I recommend that you stop playing CoH.

 

It appears to me that you don't enjoy playing this game. And, if that's true, then instead of trying to make it into a game that you will like via the suggestions forum you should just move on to a game that you will enjoy playing.

[Haijinx]

13 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

 

However, if this is really how you feel about the missions then I recommend that you stop playing CoH.

 

I thought he already quit

[Laucianna]

I do agree with option 2 here, would be cool for the captured to see you arriving and shout for your attention. But at the same time I would rather the devs spent time elsewhere (Unless they get Jimmy to do all the voices for all the character screams for help)

[uninventive]

6 hours ago, temnix said:

The missions in this game are often a torture. Sometimes it is only because of old graphics, weird surfaces and confusing polygons...

 

6 hours ago, temnix said:

Reusing maps is a part of the problem and produces much boredom.

 

6 hours ago, temnix said:

It isn't fun to plow through three enormous levels to get to the end objective, let alone clear them out. Compared to this early missions are compact and lovely.

 

So, your problem with the game is... the entire game? 

 

1 hour ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

However, if this is really how you feel about the missions then I recommend that you stop playing CoH.

 

PeregrineFalcon is giving a frequent refrain offered to people during live who commented like this.  (More blunt than I'd like to be, but not wrong.) People who swarm Suggestions with the same points on repeat.  The game was too much of a grind, there's not enough side-systems to encourage immersion. Procedural maps are boring, they should all be replaced with hand-made ones.  The combat is too repetitive, there should be more difficulty in everything.  This isn't anything we haven't heard before, nor is it unique to Homecoming.  The other Private Servers have the same perception once players get past the differences and tweaks each group makes to the game; it's still the game underneath.

But I know you honestly don't care what I think.  Or any one who replies to your writing who isn't HC Staff, that's been established countless rants ago.  I won't address mental illness, that's a step too far, and a lot of us (especially on the forums) suffer that in our own way.  That's all the good faith I have left to guess at why these rants won't stop.  If it's not done here, it's done somewhere else. 

Otherwise, speaking to your rants as a collection, if not in good faith, you must know hopefully that's nothing new to any of us; veterans here from other MMOs know what a Goon Squad looks like, it's been happening for years before it "got cool" recently.  It's not hard to guess at recent patterns of behavior from a handful of folks trying for the same here, and these posts make you look like part of that effort.  So if this 'novel approach' stuff feels new to you as you're doing this, it really isn't.

 

And people who've been here since Issue 0 know that you won't be the last of it, either.

[biostem]

I don't think the OP has replied at all, have they?  Makes me wonder how many such posters are just trying to "stir the pot", so to speak...

[Psyonico]

2 hours ago, Haijinx said:

 

I thought he already quit

At least twice

[PeregrineFalcon]

14 minutes ago, biostem said:

I don't think the OP has replied at all, have they?  Makes me wonder how many such posters are just trying to "stir the pot", so to speak...

Ya know, I've noticed that Suggestions threads, over the last year or so, usually fall into one of two categories.

 

First one, an obvious alt account makes a post that's guaranteed to start another flame war and then disappears and starts a new thread after that one gets locked.

 

Second category is the OP gets unreasonably angry and attacks everyone who disagrees with them, claims that they're breaking the rules by disagreeing with the OP, and reports everyone who disagrees with them. And then, after that thread gets locked, they start another one. Often the new thread is the same as the old thread just worded a little differently.

 

I can't be the only one who's noticed this pattern.

[Rudra]

2 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

Ya know, I've noticed that Suggestions threads, over the last year or so, usually fall into one of two categories.

 

First one, an obvious alt account makes a post that's guaranteed to start another flame war and then disappears and starts a new thread after that one gets locked.

 

Second category is the OP gets unreasonably angry and attacks everyone who disagrees with them, claims that they're breaking the rules by disagreeing with the OP, and reports everyone who disagrees with them. And then, after that thread gets locked, they start another one. Often the new thread is the same as the old thread just worded a little differently.

 

I can't be the only one who's noticed this pattern.

I disagree that it is a pattern overall. I do agree that some posters fall into that pattern though.

[lemming]

1 hour ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

I can't be the only one who's noticed this pattern.

Don't forget the ones that just linger there with little engagement.   *my specialty!*

[Seed22]

16 hours ago, CrusaderDroid said:

git gud

 

16 hours ago, CrusaderDroid said:

skill issues.

While I agree with your assessment I just had to pick these two out as I find it hilarious. This is CoH, you smack your head on the keyboard and end up with 500 dps.

 

There is no skill in this game, there is no git gud. That can be said for games with REAL hurdles and challenges, not this weenie hut juniors ass MMO.

 

And even there, I never say it. I dunno, just seems kinda infantile to me to go ‘git gud’ even if the sentiment may be true, instead I offer help.

 

But thats way off course of the topic. OP, none of the suggestions seem like necessary QoL changes imo. It seems you may just not like the game.

Edited June 27 by Seed22

[tidge]

Re: The "Bugle" idea to "announce" player presence to enemies. I can't tell how absurd this idea is... but I don't think it is a good one.

 

1) Players with enemy-affecting auras can already pretty much do this.

 

2) It is indistinguishable from aggro management, despite protestations to the contrary.

 

3) It feels like "MOAR EAZY PLZ"... soon to be followed by "I can't find the mobile that moved away from its spawn position/trapped on geometry!"

[CrusaderDroid]

2 hours ago, Seed22 said:

While I agree with your assessment I just had to pick these two out as I find it hilarious. This is CoH, you smack your head on the keyboard and end up with 500 dps.

And that's the punchline.

[arcane]

3 hours ago, Seed22 said:

 

While I agree with your assessment I just had to pick these two out as I find it hilarious. This is CoH, you smack your head on the keyboard and end up with 500 dps.

 

There is no skill in this game, there is no git gud. That can be said for games with REAL hurdles and challenges, not this weenie hut juniors ass MMO.

 

And even there, I never say it. I dunno, just seems kinda infantile to me to go ‘git gud’ even if the sentiment may be true, instead I offer help.

 

But thats way off course of the topic. OP, none of the suggestions seem like necessary QoL changes imo. It seems you may just not like the game.

Talk about being out of touch with reality. Most noobs can’t dream of 500 DPS in this game, and most pugs can’t dream of completing the hardest content in the game. OFC you’ve made this argument many times before - that anything short of Dark Souls has no skill spectrum. It was wrong then and it’s wrong now.

Edited June 27 by arcane