yOu ShOuLD cHaNGe kNoCkBAck to KnoCKdoWN!

[Triumphant]

Quote

If this thread is good for anything it's a demonstration of why you shouldn't even bother engaging people about it in game.  If we can't agree here, we won't agree there.  Don't even bother.

 Probably true, I suppose.

[Koopak]

I got nothing for you bud, IV been railed by a team for having hurricane up despite explicitly watching my range to the mobs constantly and explaining such. But there was kb on the team so it was my fault.

[Forager]

I think it's a little strange so many are still on the "is kb good or bad" conversation... I figured that not only has it been done to death, I didn't think there would be much disagreement about it among people interested enough in the game to be here.

 

Anti-KB argument: Knocking back enemies makes things more difficult for your team

 

Pro-KB argument: It doesn't have to.

 

I think the direction this thread took illustrates the problem I was originally trying to solve. There are a few posts that say the knockback must be causing problems because I'm getting complaints...

 

To briefly address those posters... that's illogical. It's a very, very dumb thing to think or say.

 

 

 

 

[Shin Magmus]

@UltraAlt So, you finally understand that Explosive Blast only has a 50% KB chance on enemies it hits, Energy Torrent only has a 60% KB chance on enemies it hits, and that you were wrong this whole time now... right?

[PeregrineFalcon]

12 minutes ago, Shin Magmus said:

@UltraAlt So, you finally understand that Explosive Blast only has a 50% KB chance on enemies it hits, Energy Torrent only has a 60% KB chance on enemies it hits, and that you were wrong this whole time now... right?

Asking him to admit that he's wrong?!? Careful now, you might get labeled per his signature and end up ignored.

 

Besides, you know that people aren't allowed to admit they're wrong on the internet. What were you thinking? 😄

[Shin Magmus]

9 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

Asking him to admit that he's wrong?!? Careful now, you might get labeled per his signature and end up ignored.

 

Besides, you know that people aren't allowed to admit they're wrong on the internet. What were you thinking? 😄

☹️ Well yeah, generally when you make a mistake while repeatedly attacking someone, and you get proven wrong, it's only natural to be like "whoops, my bad."

 

     It's okay though, the onus is always on people like me to eloquently refute an endless flood of lies and falsehoods, while always being excellent to each other and making sure that we refute the arguments and not attack the poster... even though the other posters attack us first.  Sure it's a lop-sided and improperly moderated system, but whatcha gonna do?  For the record I main a Seismic Blast character and Upthrust (a power I already mentioned) dumpsters Energy Blast's performance at "damage mitigation" single-handedly.

[Oubliette_Red]

Any of my characters that have powers with KB, I tend to position myself where the KB will knock the target towards a corner, wall, or melee'er, usually accompanied by a "Delivery for you, Sai!"

[Snarky]

Knockback is bad.  M’kay?

[Greycat]

1 minute ago, Snarky said:

Knockback is bad.  M’kay?

 

Knockback is great and useful. M'kay?

[Shin Magmus]

10 minutes ago, Snarky said:

Knockback is bad.  M’kay?

M'kay.

[Greycat]

1 hour ago, ZemX said:

One example I can think of was one PuG with a Energy Sentinel who would literally follow my tanker into a packed group of enemies to Nova them to the four corners of the room every time it was available.  And the asshole definitely had decent recharge in his build.  It was almost every spawn, if not every spawn.  His scatter made sure it would take long enough to finish off the spawn that he'd be ready to do it again the next group.   Another time, I recall a FF bubbler who went around with that big bubble that pushes everything away.  He wasn't exactly charging in to scatter, but he definitely and totally uselessly kept pushing enemies away from the front line meleers, of which I was one.

 

This is an example of a bad - or malicious, even - player. This is the sort of person who, back when the original Sonic Resonance graphics were literally causing people to have to log off and deal with migraines and other actual, physical health issues, would continue to spam the shield *causing* the problem when asked - then told - not to.

 

This is not a power issue. This is a *player* issue. Which can be solved by:

1. Requesting they not do that, politely, explaining why it's not helping. (Suggesting standing to the side so they're knocked INTO the melee, for instance, as an alternative.)

2. Kicking from the team and/or reporting to a GM if they continue. Not accidentally happening to hit it at a bad time, but - as described - following the melee and then scattering them.

3. Player note, single star with a why, so if they move to another character you can tell what to expect in the future.

 

8 minutes ago, Oubliette_Red said:

Any of my characters that have powers with KB, I tend to position myself where the KB will knock the target towards a corner, wall, or melee'er, usually accompanied by a "Delivery for you, Sai!"

 

And this is someone using it appropriately.

 

Any power can be disruptive. Ice slick can keep mobs from joining an AOE. AOE Immobs, holds and fears can string out mobs to keep them from being grouped up. Caltrops can slow them down or make them scatter, as can burn. Taunts can pull mobs away from someone who needs those mobs for a buff/heal/defense. Or, properly played, they can be *useful* tools. Knockback is no different, other than having some "Grr always evil hate hate hate won't hear anything else" zealots.

[Indystruck]

1. Knockback is a useful tool for enemy rearrangement and doesn't have to be a suboptimal strategy

2. No one will ever learn 1 because KB-to-KD is completely engrained in the player base

3. To the point where the playerbase doesn't recognize the difference between a repel effect and a KB effect

4. With no hope of the crutches ever coming off, the player base will never learn to utilize this effect

5. Chance for KB in an AoE sucks

[Forager]

6 hours ago, Seed22 said:

The boot button exist for Ultra Alt’s way of thinking. Find one of them on your team? Kick em. Bonus points if its a TF they need.

 

Wanna go thinking your fun is more important? Okay. You’ll learn to stop thinking that way, and VERY quickly when you get booted so often

 

This is definitely off topic... but you kicking someone from the team is also you deciding that your "fun" is more important. Do you believe the person with the power to kick someone from a team should decide which type of "fun" is most important?

[ZemX]

1 hour ago, tidge said:

Talking to Null the Gull is a suggestion made to others, just as asking other players to slot KB->KD into their powers or taking Immobilizes. some may see this as a wide spectrum, but they are all on the same spectrum.

 

Polonius: "What do you read, my lord?"

Hamlet: "Words, words, words."

[Forager]

3 minutes ago, Greycat said:

Any power can be disruptive. Ice slick can keep mobs from joining an AOE. AOE Immobs, holds and fears can string out mobs to keep them from being grouped up. Caltrops can slow them down or make them scatter, as can burn. Taunts can pull mobs away from someone who needs those mobs for a buff/heal/defense. Or, properly played, they can be *useful* tools. Knockback is no different, other than having some "Grr always evil hate hate hate won't hear anything else" zealots.

 

Here we go... now we're talking! People are attached to their own perspective so this is the sort of thing I was looking for. That's a very good point and might (probably won't) help someone pause before dismissing the arguments in favor of knockback.

[Indystruck]

I will KB 100,000,000,000 foes through the walls before I pay a tax for a enhancement that does not boost a stat

 

If God asks me to sacrifice power for function then I will simply face God and walk backwards into Hell

[GM_GooglyMoogly]

38 minutes ago, Shin Magmus said:

being excellent to each other

 

Yay!

[Luminara]

Martinets: "Play what I tell you or slot how I tell you, or I won't let you play with me.  If I have to press W, or Tab, or use a power like Combat Teleport or an AoE Immob, I'll kick you."

 

Everyone Else:

[PeregrineFalcon]

54 minutes ago, Shin Magmus said:

It's okay though, the onus is always on people like me to eloquently refute an endless flood of lies and falsehoods, while always being excellent to each other and making sure that we refute the arguments and not attack the poster... even though the other posters attack us first.  Sure it's a lop-sided and improperly moderated system, but whatcha gonna do?

Wait, so you're saying that the moderators on this forum are biased? Wow. That explains so much. Thanks for the heads up! 😃

[Forager]

11 hours ago, Shin Magmus said:

     I'm sorry you're having issues, but your teammates are having issues too and you're causing them.  Energy Blast is a troll set and it can't be "KB used effectively" because of its random nature.  Both the regular AoEs have an assinine 60% KB chance instead of a useful 100% one, contrasting a power like Gale.  What this means is that no matter where you aim, how you play, or what you say: Energy Blast leaves some of the enemies behind in their original positions and always causes scatter.

 

 

 

Your argument has some merit, but you reach a little too far. The chance being less than 100% does mean that it will cause scatter at some point. That is fair and actually helps me because while I have faced many arguments about the mobs knockback does fling everywhere, this is the first time I have ever thought about the ones it leaves behind being a problem.

 

I think we mostly likely just disagree on how big a problem that is compared to how many problems it solves.

 

My teammates sometimes have issues... largely they are imagined. Typically, everything I knockback is dead or will be very soon. They are complaining about corpses flying. Maybe occasionally I knock a bad guy away from them that they would have preferred I didn't. The problem is because we are all fairly engrossed in our own play, you only noticed that. My teammates have never noticed that sometimes I solo every 3rd spawn, but they notice when their rain powers and oil slicks don't do anything. They notice a runner getting loose and making it to the squishies, but they don't notice when I choose to hang back and send the adds and the runners flying toward the tank or to their grave.

 

In summary, when you see the scrapper's health plummeting and you blast the dude he is fighting across the room, there's a good chance he will become annoyed that he has to walk over there...

[Oubliette_Red]

I'd take KB over the way the title was written any day.

 

😁

[tidge]

There are many satisfying moments to be had in the City of Heroes. One of them I never tire often of occurs on a Penny Yin TF when my Energy/Martial can Burst of Speed next to the Super Stunner (engaged in melee with something like a Scrapper or MM henchmen), execute a Ki Push and follow up with a Sniper Blast to deny the Freakshow Resurrection.

[ZacKing]

Since a couple of people brought making changes to sets like Energy Blast and such, IIRC the HC folk have said they won't change how KB works or add an option to change the KB to KD in sets because then "it would become mandatory for teams" or something to that effect, and they didn't want that to happen.

 

Don't quote me on that as I'm not 100% sure, but it is something I seem to remember from a recent argument thread on KB vs KD.

[SeraphimKensai]

2 minutes ago, Oubliette_Red said:

I'd take KB over the way the title was written any day.

 

😁

This 100%.

Take my money.

[Luminara]

6 minutes ago, Forager said:

They are complaining about corpses flying.

 

Probably still having flashbacks to that time when Genghis Khan pwned their asses.