Nerfs - Stealth Changes - Bullshit

[Riverdusk]

6 hours ago, Go0gleplex said:

I've noticed a distinct lack of being able to hit mobs; as in I'm whiffing a lot more than what I was last month across all 30 some toons. In some cases this is despite having ACC SO's slotted. Dunno if it's a result of a nerf or the mobs getting boosted, but it's certainly annoying. Nothing like going up against a white tag mob and then missing the next dozen strikes rather than two or three that was my old normal. lol 

 

To monitor your last tohit chance - Click on "Powers", click on "Combat Attributes", Click on "Base", Rt click on "Last hit chance", click on "Monitor Last Hit Chance".  You'll see the  % chance your last attack had of hitting and it'll stay on your screen.

 

It'll help rule out things like you being debuffed or fighting things that have a high built in defense, or if you just haven't slotted enough accuracy.

 

You can also pull up your combat logs and see exactly what your tohit rolls are.

 

Also, not trying to bag on you, but I remember back on live after literally every patch there'd be a thread about exactly what you are saying.  It became a meme, "Accuracy has been nerfed!"  Your post gave me flashbacks.

 

CoH's RNG might be a bit....special sometimes.  But humans also just have terrible perception and bias built in when it comes to random events.  That XCOM became so famous for its 99% tohit chance misses is a good example of that too.  

 

 

 

[Troo]

2 hours ago, skoryy said:

 

Please explain where not having 100 prot against knock for 15 seconds makes the game more tedious.

 

Oh Mary Sue, Moment of Glory on lasts but a moment. Whats the point if a player spends their time getting juggled or toggle dropped.

The power also was setup as an escape power. A player could escape being immobilized, held, stunned, slept, etc. even being sapped.

 

Moment of Glory

When you activate this power, you gain Resistance and Defense to all damage types except Psionics, recover Endurance more quickly, and are highly resistant to Knockback, Repel (Stalkers only), Sleep, Disorient, Immobilization, and Hold effects.

 

"highly resistant" isn't the same a 'some resistance'

[arcane]

30 minutes ago, Troo said:

 

Oh Mary Sue, Moment of Glory on lasts but a moment. Whats the point if a player spends their time getting juggled or toggle dropped.

The power also was setup as an escape power. A player could escape being immobilized, held, stunned, slept, etc. even being sapped.

 

Moment of Glory

When you activate this power, you gain Resistance and Defense to all damage types except Psionics, recover Endurance more quickly, and are highly resistant to Knockback, Repel (Stalkers only), Sleep, Disorient, Immobilization, and Hold effects.

 

"highly resistant" isn't the same a 'some resistance'

Do you not take Integration or something 

[AerialAssault]

Here I was thinking it was going to be something juicy like "did you know that 10% of your Inf gains are secretly drained away into the Devs accounts??" or "they nerfed Fire Blast to do 50% less damage!!"

 

I get that some of us are more adversarial to HC than others but this is pretty low effort. I wouldn't go as far as to describe it as 'bullshit', rather, it was a simple oversight that it wasn't included in the patch notes and not some insidious plot to nerf Regen or sneak changes under the noses of the ever vigilant players.

[Lines]

Could it truly be called an update if there was no regen nerf?

[Vanden]

I would like some proof that this supposed nerf actually occurred and wasn't just revealed to OP in a dream or something, because I am looking at the City of Data entry for MoG and they do not match the supposed post nerf numbers.

[Snarky]

7 hours ago, skoryy said:

 

Please explain where not having 100 prot against knock for 15 seconds makes the game more tedious.

the only thing i can think is against BAB   the guy packs a wallop.  but 15 secs?  when has anyone put down the Freedom phalanx in... okay, some of these geeks have.  but still, thats the only place it might be useful.

 

4 pts KB prot is great against 99% game...

[arcane]

1 hour ago, Snarky said:

4 pts KB prot is great against 99% game...

Leaving this here for those who are dissatisfied with only 99% protection… 

 

https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=tanker_defense.regeneration.integration&at=tanker

 

Imagine your Electric Tanker endured some nerf where the only effect was a reduction in energy resistance from “way over the cap” to “over the cap but less”. Aka literal zero impact aka literally nothing. Sound like something that’s a waste of time to think about for more than two

seconds? Well, that is the source of Troo’s pain anyway.

[Maelwys]

STAHP beating on @Troo, dammit.

They're making a good point.
Not about the magnitude of MoG's protection reductions. But because those reductions weren't listed in the patch notes.

I find it annoying whenever changes, even extremely minor changes, get left out of a change log.
Because those minor changes can very often have side effects that aren't readily apparent.

It's a very basic troubleshooting step: "I'm having an issue with XYZ" --> "OK. Has anything changed?" If the answer is "Well, we don't really know for sure because the list of changes doesn't include everything, only the changes that were deemed sufficiently important or far-reaching" then that's a failing.
I realise that condensing down a bunch of GIT-commits to a list of human-readable bullet points can be very difficult (especially for a bunch of volunteers!) and so it's very likely that there's no easy fix to this one. But the complaint itself is a valid one IMHO.

[MoonSheep]

6 hours ago, Troo said:

 

Oh Mary Sue, Moment of Glory on lasts but a moment. Whats the point if a player spends their time getting juggled or toggle dropped.

The power also was setup as an escape power. A player could escape being immobilized, held, stunned, slept, etc. even being sapped.

 

Moment of Glory

When you activate this power, you gain Resistance and Defense to all damage types except Psionics, recover Endurance more quickly, and are highly resistant to Knockback, Repel (Stalkers only), Sleep, Disorient, Immobilization, and Hold effects.

 

"highly resistant" isn't the same a 'some resistance'

 

15 seconds isn’t long, but to be fair to the devs it is called ‘moment’ of glory and not ‘era’ of glory 😛

[tidge]

24 minutes ago, Maelwys said:

STAHP beating on @Troo, dammit.

They're making a good point.
Not about the magnitude of MoG's protection reductions. But because those reductions weren't listed in the patch notes.

I find it annoying whenever changes, even extremely minor changes, get left out of a change log.
Because those minor changes can very often have side effects that aren't readily apparent.

 

This is how I felt about what was happening with Maintenance Drone. I've got a long-used routine with my henchmen, and every once in a while I get the sense that there have been some subtle tweaks to henchmen AI (robots are all ranged, so it is pretty easy to notice when something is different).... but without any notes it seems really paranoid to ask about this sort of thing.

 

For example: The Giant Monster ToHit chances were buffed... so when Maintenance Drone wasn't repairing the henchmen, it wasn't as if I could get a huge sample size, but it certainly felt like henches weren't getting healed by the drone as in the past... because Protector Bots were still casting their heals (which aren't great). This turned out to be an introduced bug.

 

A similar 'new' effect I've noticed, but could be attributable to the new ToHits (but feels like it isn't) is that repositioning henchmen, even within Supremacy range (so also FFG, MM auras), seems to make it much more likely that a GM is going to hit them... I'm basing this off of the GM AoEs, when I have a Barrier up on the henches, This isn't the sort of thing that is easy to monitor, and after a week of i28p2 I've basically stopped repositioning henches and getting results (defeat times, hench survival) closer to what I experienced from the previous year.

[skoryy]

43 minutes ago, Maelwys said:

But the complaint itself is a valid one IMHO

 

A valid complaint is posting to the bug list or patch notes, "Hey, y'all, did you miss this?"  Not this.

[Cobalt Arachne]

  

On 6/26/2025 at 7:55 AM, Troo said:

That said, changes are still happening and it's kinda bullshit.

 

We'll look into this; I can confirm that Moment of Glory did change in Issue 28, Page 2, and if it was missed from the patch notes we'll correct it as soon as I can get the correct notes.

I'm going to take this opportunity to once again, remind folks to please not assume mistakes in bad faith. I can promise you that nobody on the Homecoming Team works on City of Heroes with the intention to try and make things a worse experience for our players or to be dishonest about changes.

 

Things get missed, we make human errors, we're never trying to deceive anybody but if you respond automatically assuming that we are being deceptive, then most any trust in communicating with players goes out the window and everybody loses. The game's data and numbers are very transparent (City of Data just updated for Issue 28, Page 2) so it's odd to assume we'd intentionally hide a change knowing that players can very easily check against exact data.

We're volunteers who regularly are juggling this entire production-quality development project on top of everything in our personal lives/day jobs.

[golstat2003]

1 hour ago, Maelwys said:

STAHP beating on @Troo, dammit.

They're making a good point.
Not about the magnitude of MoG's protection reductions. But because those reductions weren't listed in the patch notes.

I find it annoying whenever changes, even extremely minor changes, get left out of a change log.
Because those minor changes can very often have side effects that aren't readily apparent.

It's a very basic troubleshooting step: "I'm having an issue with XYZ" --> "OK. Has anything changed?" If the answer is "Well, we don't really know for sure because the list of changes doesn't include everything, only the changes that were deemed sufficiently important or far-reaching" then that's a failing.
I realise that condensing down a bunch of GIT-commits to a list of human-readable bullet points can be very difficult (especially for a bunch of volunteers!) and so it's very likely that there's no easy fix to this one. But the complaint itself is a valid one IMHO.

Missing some things in patch notes is possible in a software development project as large as this last release was. It’s just an unavoidable part of managing large projects unfortunately. And HC has been good about correcting the record after. I don’t think a missed patch notes from time to time is some cardinal sin that some folks make it out to be.

 

But yes it can be annoying when you’re not sure if a change is intentional or not.

[jprewitt73]

1 hour ago, Cobalt Arachne said:

 We're volunteers who regularly are jugging this entire production-quality development project on top of everything in our personal lives/day jobs.

 

[Maelwys]

54 minutes ago, skoryy said:

A valid complaint is posting to the bug list or patch notes, "Hey, y'all, did you miss this?"  Not this.

To be fair, they did that already.

This appears to just be vocalising it to a wider audience.
So at worst here IMO it's valid complaint; but questionable location for the soapbox.

 

 

56 minutes ago, Cobalt Arachne said:

Things get missed, we make human errors, we're never trying to deceive anybody

We're volunteers who regularly are jugging this entire production-quality development project on top of everything in our personal lives/day jobs.

Thanks Arachne.

As @Troo said in the OP; this was a biiiiiiiiiig patch and it's not surprising things were missed out.
So less pointing of fingers + chanting SHAME! SHAME! etc; and more slight venting of frustrations in not getting the full picture of exactly what's changed + wondering if there's anything that could be done to address it without completely destroying the dev's motivation to sign into Git.
((And I 100% appreciate that "documentation" is the main downfall of many multinational professional software outfits...)) 🙄
 

[Forager]

I understand that this forum is a niche audience within a niche audience within a niche audience... but damn it's weird in here...

 

OPs complaint was pretty logical and reasonable, albeit poorly formed at the start. The only reasonable response to his complaint is "oh yeah... they probably should have put that in the patch notes."

 

Everything else? Talking about Integration, citing 3rd party sources, demanding proof? Weird behavior.

 

 

Edited 2 hours ago by Forager

[Forager]

4 hours ago, Cobalt Arachne said:

We'll look into this; I can confirm that Moment of Glory did change in Issue 28, Page 2, and if it was missed from the patch notes we'll correct it as soon as I can get the correct notes.

 

Lol... tada.

[arcane]

11 minutes ago, Forager said:

I understand that this forum is a niche audience within a niche audience within a niche audience... but damn it's weird in here...

 

OPs complaint was pretty logical and reasonable, albeit poorly formed at the start. The only reasonable response to his complaint is "oh yeah... they probably should have put that in the patch notes."

 

Everything else? Talking about Integration, citing 3rd party sources, demanding proof? Weird behavior.

 

 

I just found it unusual that a character immune to knockback came here with the attitude of someone ready to die on the hill of Moment of Glory’s additional knockback protection. I’m sorry that you find that weird. It seemed kind of relevant to the discussion that we make sure he knew about his existing knockback immunity.

Edited 2 hours ago by arcane

[Troo]

22 hours ago, Troo said:

23 hours ago, arcane said:

Ah yes the vibrant community of Regeneration users that get knocked back through Integration. 
 

Is there a single stealth change you can point to that will ever impact anyone?

 

Is it a documented change or not?

 

 

Is it a documented change or not?

Are changes still happening?

 

Pretty simple questions @arcane. I realize you want to engage and argue minutia. Start a new specific topic and I'll participate.

 

 

4 hours ago, skoryy said:

A valid complaint is posting to the bug list or patch notes, "Hey, y'all, did you miss this?"  Not this.

 

Maybe I already did that.

Maybe I already did that a number of times and noticed a trend.

Maybe this is a broader discussion since Page 2 went live and changes are still happening.

Maybe for your fourth post in this topic you could expand on how you would run the forums if you were in charge. I and others are big fans of that.
 

[arcane]

3 minutes ago, Troo said:

 

Is it a documented change or not?

No. Are you publicly making a stink about something with zero impact on gameplay or not?

[Troo]

3 hours ago, Maelwys said:

To be fair, they did that already.

This appears to just be vocalising it to a wider audience.
So at worst here IMO it's valid complaint; but questionable location for the soapbox.

 

Hey I appreciate it. I can take a beating.

 

This topic is not specific to any one power or change. There are lots. As others have stated they have noticed some things as well that seem off. 

 

We don't always agree, but I see the effort you put into unraveling some mysteries in this release. Thanks.

[Troo]

Just now, arcane said:

No. Are you publicly making a stink about something with zero impact on gameplay or not?

 

There were two questions there.

Is it a documented change or not? You've answered 'No'...

Are changes still happening? Are we to guess your answer in 'No' here also?

 

I am not making a 'stink', things are happening, folks should know about them. Folks shouldn't feel crazy or have to do detective work to figure out if they are gaslighting themselves.

 

[Captain Powerhouse]

There was no intentional nerf to the MoG mez/knock protections. Will look into what's going there as soon as I can but note that player KB resistance cap is 99%. Repel resistance cap is 100%. 

 

Having anything above 100% is not just overkill, but certainly a typo from someone years ago thinking 100 in a spreadsheet meant 100%.

 

MoG still gets players to the cap, making any protection over mag 1 only meaningful while facing irresistible auto-hit knockback (i specify autohit due to the high defense the power provides).

[Forager]

36 minutes ago, arcane said:

I just found it unusual that a character immune to knockback came here with the attitude of someone ready to die on the hill of Moment of Glory’s additional knockback protection

 

Whoopsie! The complaint was about changes not being in the patch notes. It wasn't about changes-that-arcane-thinks-matter not being in the patch notes.

 

Your personal opinion on whether the change is impactful are irrelevant to the complaint. And that's before we even dissect that opinion and all the assumptions and conclusions you used to form it.

 

 

Edited 2 hours ago by Forager