The Idea Police

[GM_GooglyMoogly]

23 minutes ago, Forager said:

Maybe it would help if you guys knew why the "dev time" defense is so stupid.

 

Guidance and coaching:  Quoting and disputing everyone else and insulting them, even if backhanded, does not contribute to a healthy discussion that others want to join in.

[Forager]

8 minutes ago, golstat2003 said:

The multiple suggestions threads still being opened daily by new and old posters are like is also evidence that this is just your opinion, not a fact.

 

Lol... this is a weird non sequitur, but it is my opinion. It is my opinion that the discussions here could be better with guidance.

 

The fact that there are threads is just... evidence that there are threads. What would you even compare to draw this conclusion? That's rhetorical, btw.

 

Yes. I'm saying my opinion. I'm saying there's a problem. I'm saying I don't like it. I don't get the preoccupation with "that's your opinion!" anymore than the "I'm allowed!" stance.

 

Ok?

[golstat2003]

1 minute ago, Forager said:

 

Lol... this is a weird non sequitur, but it is my opinion. It is my opinion that the discussions here could be better with guidance.

 

The fact that there are threads is just... evidence that there are threads. What would you even compare to draw this conclusion? That's rhetorical, btw.

 

Yes. I'm saying my opinion. I'm saying there's a problem. I'm saying I don't like it. I don't get the preoccupation with "that's your opinion!" anymore than the "I'm allowed!" stance.

 

Ok?

Okay cool we can agree to disagree that it’s a problem on the forums. You think it is. Some folks agree, some disagree. Moving on on that point.

[Forager]

8 minutes ago, GM_GooglyMoogly said:

Guidance and coaching:  Quoting and disputing everyone else and insulting them, even if backhanded, does not contribute to a healthy discussion that others want to join in

 

Lol ok

[Forager]

2 hours ago, battlewraith said:

 

The gist of complaints like this are that there is a dynamic that makes it not fun. 

There is a subset of players that bring very restrictive expectations to the table. 

They are toxic to ideation. The perfect is the enemy of the good.

 

That is a very good summary.

[Skyhawke]

Soooooo, that's a "no" on the free donuts? 🥺

[Steampunkette]

People pointing out problems and constraints on suggestions isn't stupid.

 

It's an important piece of feedback that, if accepted, can lead one to make better suggestions which take into account the constraints and potential problems their future suggestions may have.

 

It's also a great piece of information to use to retool a suggestion which contains these problems and constraints to eliminate them.

 

Complaining that people take part in process of refinement of ideas in a way you don't like?

 

-That- is pretty ignorant.

[biostem]

Some ideas are bad, and pointing out that they are bad is fine.  Some ideas, in isolation, are actually quite good, but would be impractical to implement, so also get shot-down.  Other ideas are presented without a proper understanding of game mechanics or design philosophies, or are just not appropriate for CoH, regardless of how good they are.  In short, not all suggestions are created equally, and it is not up to the rest of your audience to interpret or otherwise divine what you actually meant, if you yourself cannot or will not convey your ideas adequately.  Present your ideas, explain them clearly and convincingly, and we won't need any blanket rules about what can or cannot be suggested.  At the same time, I can empathize with disliking reactions that are given without any further explanation, (ok, you thumbs-downed my suggestion, but why?  What didn't you like about it?).  Now, OP, get off your soap box and actually present some feasible, constructive, and well thought out ideas, instead of trying to browbeat the rest of us because you got your feeling hurt...

[Forager]

6 minutes ago, biostem said:

Now, OP, get off your soap box and actually present some feasible, constructive, and well thought out ideas

 

Oh... I think a dev should say that critiques of ideas based on "dev ability" or "dev time" are stupid, and that people shouldn't do that... assuming the devs agree. I think they do, but I could be wrong.

 

Then the people that don't understand that it's stupid can say "oh, dang... I didn't realize that was stupid" and stop.

[Greycat]

8 hours ago, Forager said:

1. The dev's time and ability is an uninteresting and unhelpful talking point that comes up in a ridiculous number of threads. The people who cite it rarely have any idea what they're talking about and use it as a catch all way to "vote" no.

 

2. We are not voting. Posters will often reply something akin to "I'm ok with it..." or "it's a no..." like they're voting. The difference between voting no and saying what you don't like about an idea is subtle, but important for discussion.

 

3. Shooting down ideas is just not a thing. The only person who should be shooting down ideas is the person paying for them. Conversations with naysayers are short, unproductive and not very fun. You can like or dislike an idea, but if you can't think of a way to improve upon an idea and don't want to try, you should not be part of the discussion.

 

 

So, for 1: Yes. It is. For a while I was responding to "not worth dev time" replies with "the devs are big boys and girls and can decide for themselves what's worth their time." And what *they* think is worth their time will include things a dev sees and goes "that's weird but I find it interesting and think I'll work on it." 

 

2. As other have said, no, that's not voting, that is stating opinion. The devs do go through the forum though.  And some things do just get a "yes" or "no" from folks for several reason - they just like (or dislike) it, they don't want to get into an argument about it, the "vibe," whatever. No, you don't (and don't have to) post a reason for liking or not liking an idea, any more than when a friend posts a picture of something they saw, you need to say more than "Huh, cool." 

 

Which ties into 3. No, you do not need to post your reasoning for liking or disliking or "a way to improve" an idea. Some ideas just suck. Some ideas are just spectacular, or blindingly in need of work. Not wanting to say more than "Eh, no" does not mean you do not get to be part of the discussion. No, don't say something like "The idea is almost as stupid as you are." That's attacking the person.  Flip side of THAT is don't take "Eh, I just don't like it" is not a personal attack, so don't *take* it personally. Some people will take any disagreement as a personal affront. 

[Forager]

25 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

 

Complaining that people take part in process of refinement of ideas in a way you don't like?

 

-That- is pretty ignorant.

 

The irony of your post aside...

 

I'm complaining about people taking part in a way that is counterproductive. I'm saying that what they are doing hurts that process.

 

 

[Yomo Kimyata]

An interesting thing that I personally keep forgetting is that this is not a business.  The GMs and devs aren't getting paid, have no interest in player retention, have zero responsibility to keep the greatest number of players happiest the greatest amount of the time.  This game was a secret underground poker game for seven years, and frankly I think a few of the decision makers wish it was still that way!  Heck, I don't even know who in the game or on these forums is a decision maker or just some clown like me who likes to tell other people why their stupid ideas are stupid and why their good ideas are good.

 

Personally, when I post a suggestion I don't give a flying goose caboose about when someone says they don't like it because they don't like it, unless they've got a big bolded name as a decision maker.  I'd like to see more feedback from them about whether or not they think an idea is worth their time or not than from some chucklehead in a basement in Sheboygan.  No Wisconsinites were harmed in the writing of the previous sentence.

 

[Skyhawke]

14 minutes ago, Forager said:

 

Oh... I think a dev should say that critiques of ideas based on "dev ability" or "dev time" are stupid, and that people shouldn't do that... assuming the devs agree. I think they do, but I could be wrong.

 

Then the people that don't understand that it's stupid can say "oh, dang... I didn't realize that was stupid" and stop.

 

...are you reading your words? I mean reeeeealllly reading them. They are the words of a petulant child. You've called everyone except the holy ghost "stupid". Who the fuck does that? Petulant children. That's who. 

 

Real talk? At this point you're embarrassing yourself. You came in on a high and mighty soapbox, talked down to everyone (your usual MO), called everyone stupid and acted like ONLY YOU could lead us to the light. A GM (following your request) politely suggested you were out of line. Your response? "LOL ok". 

 

I mean...what?!?!

 

Jesus H Christ, where's the Tylenol? 

[GM_GooglyMoogly]

I just went through all the non-sticky posts on page one of Suggestions & Feedback subforum.  It's better than I thought it was going to be.  Some agreed with suggestions, some disagreed, some offered explanations, some offered alternatives, a few people joked, very few were insulting.

 

Maybe the "Idea Police" are more prevalent on older threads.

[Psyonico]

2 hours ago, Forager said:

 

Lol weren't you the guy that said there's no way to display proc chances in game?

Nope, I'm the guy that argued that PPM is accurate

[lemming]

55 minutes ago, GM_GooglyMoogly said:

I just went through all the non-sticky posts on page one of Suggestions & Feedback subforum.  It's better than I thought it was going to be.  Some agreed with suggestions, some disagreed, some offered explanations, some offered alternatives, a few people joked, very few were insulting.

 

Maybe the "Idea Police" are more prevalent on older threads.

Some people might be victim of a feedback loop.  Expect terrible stuff and you'll find terrible stuff.

[Glacier Peak]

54 minutes ago, GM_GooglyMoogly said:

Maybe the "Idea Police" are more prevalent on older threads.

Here's a real question for anyone whose posted in this sub thread - how many posters have shared an idea or suggestion and actually agreed with other posters who point out the flaws or criticisms of that? What a crazy world to think one's ideas are without flaw.

 

Anyone can search my threads and see how many ideas I've suggested that were stinkers, how many were implemented, and how many went straight to the next page without discussion. I had a terrible idea for making Echo zones PvP enabled like four years ago and at the time it was a terrible idea and in hindsight it is still a terrible idea.

[Forager]

1 hour ago, GM_GooglyMoogly said:

Maybe the "Idea Police" are more prevalent on older threads.

 

I wonder what happened...

[Troo]

 

Well this escalated quickly.

 

Below isn't mine but maybe there is something succinct in it's message..

[golstat2003]

2 hours ago, Forager said:

 

The irony of your post aside...

 

I'm complaining about people taking part in a way that is counterproductive. I'm saying that what they are doing hurts that process.

 

 

 

And many folks disagree and say that it's not counter productive. /shurg

Edited 4 hours ago by golstat2003

[skoryy]

1 hour ago, GM_GooglyMoogly said:

Maybe the "Idea Police" are more prevalent on older threads.

 

Nah, @tidge had it right. The Idea Police live inside of our heads,, the Idea Police they come to us in our beds... 🎶

[golstat2003]

1 hour ago, GM_GooglyMoogly said:

I just went through all the non-sticky posts on page one of Suggestions & Feedback subforum.  It's better than I thought it was going to be.  Some agreed with suggestions, some disagreed, some offered explanations, some offered alternatives, a few people joked, very few were insulting.

 

Maybe the "Idea Police" are more prevalent on older threads.

 

Kinda what I was trying to say earlier. I'm not seeing this rash of "idea police" that is rampantly destroying this section of the forums. Glad to see I was not the only one. /shrug.

[Troo]

4 hours ago, GM_GooglyMoogly said:

 

Hey! How does this person have no warning points?! Muthatruckingawddam double standards..

 

..yep that was my take away.

[Rudra]

1 hour ago, GM_GooglyMoogly said:

Maybe the "Idea Police" are more prevalent on older threads.

 

28 minutes ago, golstat2003 said:

 

Kinda what I was trying to say earlier. I'm not seeing this rash of "idea police" that is rampantly destroying this section of the forums. Glad to see I was not the only one. /shrug.

That's because every time I've seen any mention of idea police or thought police on these forums, it is specifically in reference to the unacceptable state of others disagreeing with the suggestion for any reason.

[arcane]

I love that the evil cabal ruining Homecoming’s development is just me posting disagreeable blurbs from atop my toilet. Never have I dreamed of this kind of power.