Why is doing damage the only way to win?

[temnix]

I remember requests and ideas around the concept that draining an enemy of Endurance should be an alternative way to win a fight. But I am concerned about something different: Controllers and other Archetypes half-similar to Controllers. The problem with them all, but especially Controllers, is that they are potentially the most interesting character types, with the most possibilities, but they just can't win a fight. Because they can barely put a scratch on the enemies, especially after the freebie Prestige attacks (that were paid cheats to begin with) peter out.

 

I have tried playing Controllers solo and other types with a half of their powers in the controlling basket, and to the extent they use control, their fights never end. Control is only useful when the actual means of defeating enemies is from a damage-dealing power set, as for Defenders or Corruptors. Then it is convenient to be able to hold down enemies while you shoot them. But control itself, with a few exceptional powers like Propel does little to completely nothing to end a fight, give experience or drops.

 

That is wrong.

 

I am not buying the excuse that "some Archetypes are inherently more suited to group play." All that means is that the original designers could not find a mechanic that would express the ability of gravity-benders, terror-mongers, psychic dominators et cetera to come up on top. Perhaps Cryptic was still too locked into the buffer/tanker/etc. role division so that one was supposed to resolve to play second fiddle forever, help out and derive satisfaction from that. But Magneto didn't need Sabertooth to smash those who stood in his way and Professor X only brought Cyclops along for backup. It isn't difficult to imagine how such diverse powers over the environment, bodies and minds as the controlling types possess would let them scare away, stop, deceive, frighten, seduce, displace everyone and everything that at the moment represented opposition. And CoH features plenty of such interesting powers in the sets.

 

They just don't win fights.

 

For me the purpose of a new mechanic in this case is to enable Controllers (et al) to overcome enemies solo at the same rate as their damage-dealing counterparts without diminishing their role as helpers in groups. That is the only standard: the only thing we are competing with or comparing to here is not some theoretical "balance" but the amount of fun others get. To make this possible the mechanic of winning only needs to be parallel to damage-dealing (instead of going on top of damage-dealing, as with the Endurance drain). That way a Controller in a group would not bring down the enemies by this mechanic sooner than the damage specialists by damage and steal their spotlight, because damage is dispensed in groups so much faster than solo: few fights in a mission room take longer than a few seconds when Scrappers, Tankers and Blasters are involved. Yet on their own Controllers would be adequate and progress at the same pace as the others.

 

A Controller should be able to dispose of a few whites very quickly, of yellows in a half-minute, of oranges in a minute and so on, at the same speed as the others, but if not by damage, then by what?

 

Morale break. The way I see it, any sane enemy should be able to take only so much gluing down to the spot, freezing in place, mind terrors and slamming down and about before he hoists the white flag. You can interpret that in psychological terms or in functional ones. Even zombies can only take so much before their binding magic gives in.

 

Give mobs a third bar, Morale, below Health and Endurance. Let it replenish slowly but receive boosts every time the critter manages to land a blow on a player. And make the Mez states depress Morale by the magnitude of their effect for its duration. Those depressions should be cumulative. For the sake of an example, suppose that a typical minion has 10 points of Morale. Let's say that Crush from Gravity Control applies a 3.0-magnitude hold for 20 seconds. (I don't remember the exact numbers.) Morale would be depressed by 3 for the same 20 seconds. If the player had added an Extend Hold Duration Enhancement to Crush and boosted duration of the hold to, say, 25 seconds, the Morale depression would also extend.(Enhancements don't, of course, increase magnitude.)

 

During this time the player can add other powers that also hold, or put to sleep, or immobilize, or confuse - everything to represent his overall dominance of the situation. He could add the same power, Crush again, on top of the first Crush, if he had sped up its recharge enough to take advantage of the accumulation. Primary and secondary-set powers, side effects of temporary powers, Pool powers that had to be taken in order to get to the higher tier and wouldn't be used otherwise, such as some mild debuff, that toxic dart - all can find a use here.

 

If the overlay of these powers brings Morale to zero, the enemy collapses or runs away, the player gets experience and drops. Holds and immobilizes (for instance) are generally of the 2-3 point magnitude, it is more or less the same with the rest of mainstays. If the standard Morale is 10 points, it means an application of 4-5 powers in succession to defeat an enemy: in line with the number of attacks it usually takes a damage-dealing Archetype to do a job. Debuffs could be converted as 10% equal to 1 magnitude, and instant effects like Knockdown, Knockout and Teleport only apply quick, second-long depressions, because their magnitude can in some cases be increased. That lieutenants, bosses and archvillains should have longer morale bars and that level difference is going to apply is obvious.

 

Notice also that the needs of morale-breaking when using control powers may vary from the needs of helping teammates, which should keep this mechanic from being too applicable and give players some choices to make. And also notice that when a player focuses on damage, morale break is going to be largely irrelevant and vice versa. When enemies have been made to miss all the time with Negative Energy debuffs, it is not going to matter to a Blaster or a Scrapper that they may now be brought safely to a morale break after a time. The damage-dealer is going to want them dead ASAP and move on. Likewise, for someone with an eye on morale break harmless control-set powers with quicker recharge may be preferable to the ones that are slower but do some damage. By and large these are going to be parallel systems.

 

The resulting picture is something like this: the Controller puts on a Gravity Distortion Field on an encountered group, made to last longer with extra slots, and proceeds to Crush them individually. He could also speed up the recharging of the GDF and recast it several times, but that probably won't be quick enough to accumulate and is certain to be dull. He uses other powers behind his belt to strike the fear of god into them. For effect, he slams the last one into the ground with a high-boosted Lift, quickly destroying the tatters of this enemy's morale. This is all still dangerous enough, because the Controller's hit points are low, somebody may still get to him or fire at him from away, but he can do it!

 

And he feels good about himself.

 

P. S. If breaking morale of held etc. enemies turns out to be too safe, morale depression durations can be halved from effect durations. In that case the Controller will have to concentrate on select enemies and quickly string along his Mez, debuff and knock/teleport powers to take advantage of this way of winning.

Edited Saturday at 10:08 PM by temnix

[Snarky]

There are many ways to win.  I think that you are looking at it too narrowly.  
 

I have started a Charity “Winning The Future” where we work to find creative ways to win the game.  
 

You can donate 10mil inf or more to WTF Charity by sending to @Snarky

 

So much winning!  

[Glacier Peak]

I knew it, @temnix was @Diantane all along. 

[MTeague]

I mean, I would not be opposed to alternate defeat methods. Although, let's be real, the use of that will be niche, at best. Teams are still always going to be steamrolly wrecking balls of destruction. That. Will. Not. Change.

 

Why are controllers like this? Hey, even if you don't like the answer, this game dates back to 2004. EverQuest was the MMO with the biggest recognition, even if a bare few months later WoW took over. The original designers assumed, right out of the bat, that people would team. That soloing could be done, but it would be rarer, and mostly a slog. It was with that mindset that the main five Archtypes were created. (Tank, Scrapper, Blaster, Defender, Controller). The Controller was pegged as a very team-oriented archtype, offering both lockdown and buffs/debuffs.  At least for the early game, your controls ARE your attacks.

 

Flash forward twenty years later, yes, player expections are very different, but the foundation of this game, is still 2004. 

 

Does this mean Controllers are helpless? Heck No. A well built controller can demolish things. 

 

My favorite is Mind/Kin, with side of Sorcery.  Nothing attacks me unless I want it to, and I pick things off with Arcane Bolt, TK-plus-Levitate, Terrify built for Damage, and a few damage procs in certain key controls. On the secondary side,  Siphon Power and Fulcrum Shift keep me well buffed.  Am I going to outdamage, or even keep pace with a Brute, Scrapper, or Blaster? Absolutely not. If that's your yardstick, get used to disappointment. But I can do respectable damage, safely clear maps, and enjoy my play, even without a pet (although some would argue Confuse makes ALL the enemies my pets...)

 

Is it rough from 1-20?  Hardly any slots, very few powers?  Yes.  But right or wrong, this is an MMO, and while teaming is never required, it is often the best solution to many problems.

[WumpusRat]

5 hours ago, temnix said:

For me the purpose of a new mechanic in this case is to enable Controllers (et al) to overcome enemies solo at the same rate as their damage-dealing counterparts without diminishing their role as helpers in groups.

I really disagree with this idea. The whole basis of controllers is that your powers are for making things helpless, not just steamrolling. Though you can certainly slot them that way. Most of my trollers can solo just fine, though large groups with numerous bosses do take a little bit to beat down. 

 

But allowing trollers to "overcome enemies solo at the same rate as their damage-dealing counterparts" would be overpowered, imo.

 

It's the same reason defenders and corruptors don't do blaster-level damage. Controllers have the ability to completely lock down groups of enemies, making them easy to pick off. And they have support powers as well. Letting them do blaster-level damage when they're alone would be silly.

[Biff Pow]

Yes, give enemies an energy bar that lowers as they are attacked, and Controllers get a bonus at reducing this bar on mezzed opponents. The enemies are defeated when it hits zero. Make the energy bar green.

[Darmian]

I seem to earn inf in the game, and every bank heist surely has monetary rewards, I think we should be allowed buy off, blackmail or plain bribe our opponents.  Or better yet, their minions!  I mean you might have some difficulty with some of the factions but hey, worth a shot.

 

 

[MonteCarla]

 

10 hours ago, temnix said:

A Controller should be able to dispose of a few whites very quickly, of yellows in a half-minute, of oranges in a minute and so on, at the same speed as the others, but if not by damage, then by what?

No.

A controller stops the enemy fighting back with their first move, or second if its a boss. This is the difference between a damage class and a crowd control class.

Damage - you can take that enemy down in N hits but they'll keep fighting back all the time.
Control - you can take the same enemy down in N x 4 hits (or whatever multiplier) but they stop fighting back after the first or second hit.

 

Its a classic risk vs reward choice. A controller is safer but slower.

[Skyhawke]

Dance offs. No way the Devouring Earth have any skills on the dance floor.

[Ukase]

3 hours ago, Darmian said:

I seem to earn inf in the game, and every bank heist surely has monetary rewards, I think we should be allowed buy off, blackmail or plain bribe our opponents.  Or better yet, their minions!  I mean you might have some difficulty with some of the factions but hey, worth a shot.

 

 

Well, on blue side the loot is called influence. I've got a fair amount of it. And as I try to consider this term, I think it's fitting. I can influence any battle with my influence. Summons, Super Insps, START vendor temp powers..I really ought to look into trying to get to 50 without using any attacks of my own. Just START vendor goodies. But that's just silly. And it's probably been done by someone already. 

It's just a good thing the inf we earn from drops or wherever comes out of thin air, otherwise, I suspect even Recluse would have to sell his helmet to be able to afford to eat. And what's the guys name that has a cut scene about coffee? Arbiter Sands, I think. Yeah, that dude would not be getting any primo coffee at all. He'd be broke. 

[Ukase]

13 hours ago, temnix said:

That is wrong.

 

I am not buying the excuse that "some Archetypes are inherently more suited to group play."

It's already been mentioned. Jack Emmert, love him or hate him, stated clearly that the only reason to play this game was to team up. Trinity aside, their intent was to have people team up, and make friends as they played, resulting in continuing subscriptions so you could keep teaming with your friends. And maybe experience some interesting content while you're at it. 

Not sure which issue it was, but sometimes around issue 4-5, or maybe before, there were fire tanks telling other players "I don't need you". And the controllers and defenders were left outside in the cold, having to find a desperate scrapper or blaster to aid them in reaching their goals. (Pre CoV, you know) 

It wasn't long after that, they put fear into burn. Suddenly, a controller that could lock down a group had some utility. I myself reaped the benefit of a grav troller who would use repel, forcing family into my burn patch. Fun times. Sisterhood player, college student destressing before her finals. No idea what happened to her in real life, but a nice person. 

Now, just because it was always like that, and planned that way to discourage soloing, doesn't mean it has to remain that way. 
But I am not smart enough to find a way to allow controllers to reap the same benefits as a blaster solo, without them being a true force multiplier on a team, to the point of ridiculousness. 

I'm not saying controllers shouldn't do more damage. Maybe give them a damage buff when they're solo the way defenders get one. At least before level 30. That's over fast enough anyway. 

[Snarky]

37 minutes ago, Ukase said:

It's already been mentioned. Jack Emmert, love him or hate him, stated clearly that the only reason to play this game was to team up. Trinity aside, their intent was to have people team up, and make friends as they played

Ah yes, Jack…   Master of making friends. I truly hope he finally did. 

[Auroxis]

The damage difference between a new controller (yet to slot procs or obtain their pet) and an end-game controller (with procced-out attacks and a pet) is pretty massive. There are also low offense support powersets like Elec Affinity and Empathy, low DPS control powersets like Mind, and low AoE control powersets like Gravity.

 

Controllers definitely don't have bad damage overall, but it is fair to say the difference in offensive contribution between a Mind/Empathy with SO's and a Pyro/Marine with procs is pretty massive. That's not to say procs should be nerfed, but rather that controllers could use some extra punching power to alleviate the damage woes before pets, and that some powersets need a specific touch-up.

[dukedukes]

Controllers mitigate danger, sort of like a tank but on a bigger scale. Treat every mission like you would a fire farm and I think you'll find a use for mez. Power creep has damaged standard pack to pack gameplay, we need something like 50 to 100 mobs for a challenge, with some caveats.

 

Lower level gameplay sees many opportunities for mez use as well since most on the team lack the games biggest power creep mechanics. Don't invite any 50's and see how well you do.

[Jacke]

From 2005 August, Repeat Offenders have been playing this game and adapting to whatever the game was at the time, teaming however they wished, or playing solo.

 

Sometimes finding ways, Team compositions, and Toon builds to "push the envelope" so to speak.  😺

 

Some content does need a Tanker(s), sometimes other Archetypes are needed or helpful, and Advanced AKA Hard Mode does demand certain Team Compositions and Incarnate Powers selections.

 

But most of it at a low enough Notoriety can be played however you wish.  Even higher Notoriety with a better Build and Tactics.

 

 

Edited yesterday at 02:27 PM by Jacke

[Octogoat]

[tidge]

There is no practical way to assign XP, Inf, reward drops except for defeating enemies in this game. The only 'alternate win conditions' for solo are for things like a %chance at prismatic aethers for completing missions... but even those missions require some defeat(s). You can of course play costume/base/AE designer without doing any fighting or collecting rewards.

 

This is where I write: The IO system, specifically %damage procs, really help low-DPS ATs progress more like DPS-oriented characters. By far this is the number one reason why we shouldn't be entertaining ideas about a aprocalypse.... %damage procs allow ATs the choice to do more damage than they would by just relying on low/no-damage controls, debuffs, etc.

[Uun]

I've got 6 lvl 50 controllers on HC and had 4 more on live. They solo just fine. My most recent controller projects were Electric/Dark and Arsenal/Marine and both are fantastic solo (I typically run at x4 or x6 depending on the faction) and I leveled the Electric before the recent buffs. Gravity, Illusion and Plant all solo very easily, although I'll grant you that Earth and Ice are pretty slow without help from their secondaries and epics.

[vibal]

I think there's a good faith argument to be made that controls need a goal to balance toward in team content. The amount of mob types that are partially/largely/completely immune to controls, lower damage and/or lower support #'s on both control AT's, and reliance on cycling barrier for mitigation in incarnate level content, makes them the first to get jettisoned in harder content groups. A dom's slot would almost always be better filled by a blaster, and a troller's spot would almost always be better filled by a corrupter. Firing off an AOE hold in content that is actually challenging is about as useful as if there were a mob type that was immune to footstomp's damage, but still effected by the knock down -- presuming footstomp were saddled with a 240s cooldown.

 

Given the recent changes to plant I have no idea what the dev goals are for controls but I don't have high hopes for the return of support heavy teams.

[RikOz]

Oh yes, I deleted the one and only controller I've ever rolled by 5th level. FF/Illusion. With the limited number of powers at that level, I could attack, or I could defend, but not both at the same time. So I could turn on my personal forcefield, become completely untouchable, and then just stand there watching Hellions flail uselessly at me. Or I could turn it off and attack, and promptly get my ass handed to me.

 

On the other hand, when I stop a mugging and that Outcast in Steel Canyon decides to leg it instead of fight, it kind of spoils my immersion when the victim continues to stand there cowering while the mugger is a hundred yards away and still going. What, scaring the mugger off isn't good enough? I have to chase him across the zone? Go on kid, he's gone. You're safe. Or rescuing CoT ritual victims in Perez. The victim will run off if you attack, but if you miss just one CoT, the victim will eventually wander back and resume being victimized.

[Luminara]

Why is dealing damage a prerequisite for advancement in a... combat-oriented game...

 

Hm...

 

Shit, I got nothin'.  It's a complete mystery.

[WumpusRat]

7 minutes ago, RikOz said:

Oh yes, I deleted the one and only controller I've ever rolled by 5th level. FF/Illusion. With the limited number of powers at that level, I could attack, or I could defend, but not both at the same time. So I could turn on my personal forcefield, become completely untouchable, and then just stand there watching Hellions flail uselessly at me. Or I could turn it off and attack, and promptly get my ass handed to me.

Initially I wasn't really sold on controllers or dominators. I didn't much like them, as I preferred being much more aggressive in my playstyle. I glomped onto masterminds the moment CoV came out, and they quickly became my favorite AT.

 

Since coming onto HC, and being able to just make as many characters as I want, I decided to try out some trollers. And damn are they fun. I have almost more trollers than I do MMs at this point, which is a pretty massive switch for me since back on live, I literally had 30-35 masterminds. 

 

But trollers are tons of fun. Giving up at 5th level before you get any of the real powers of the set (most notably Phantom Army, the keystone of the illusion set) seems a little odd. Yeah, they don't curbstomp stuff at low level, but you can just slot your single-target hold and immobilize for damage and pretend you're a mini-blaster until 12-16th when you start getting some more serious powers.

[BasiliskXVIII]

8 hours ago, vibal said:

I think there's a good faith argument to be made that controls need a goal to balance toward in team content. The amount of mob types that are partially/largely/completely immune to controls, lower damage and/or lower support #'s on both control AT's, and reliance on cycling barrier for mitigation in incarnate level content, makes them the first to get jettisoned in harder content groups. A dom's slot would almost always be better filled by a blaster, and a troller's spot would almost always be better filled by a corrupter. Firing off an AOE hold in content that is actually challenging is about as useful as if there were a mob type that was immune to footstomp's damage, but still effected by the knock down -- presuming footstomp were saddled with a 240s cooldown.

 

Given the recent changes to plant I have no idea what the dev goals are for controls but I don't have high hopes for the return of support heavy teams.

 

I feel like the changes to the Crey Paragon Protectors, where they lock out their ult when controlled, was a good first step for this, and a model for how the game could make a niche for controls to be useful. I don't know if it would make much of a change to steamrolling teams, but certainly some annoying enemies with abilities that can't practically be stopped otherwise, such as rez effects, or Illusionists' phase shift could be a contender for that same "if controlled, this ability is locked out" effect to give Controllers and Doms a substantive role.

[MTeague]

13 hours ago, Skyhawke said:

Dance offs. No way the Devouring Earth have any skills on the dance floor.

Interpretive Dance is clearly supposed to be a Support set, so we can have a +DEF,+RES "Safety Dance" power.

[lemming]

2 minutes ago, MTeague said:

Interpretive Dance is clearly supposed to be a Support set, so we can have a +DEF,+RES "Safety Dance" power.