page 3 [FOCUSED FEEDBACK] Super Strength Adjustments

[Steampunkette]

Just now, Wavicle said:

 

Think it's 8%, no? We aren't adding an additional 800% of current, we're multiplying current by 8. Am I mistaken?

Is it? Okay. So it's a 700% Increase. My brain is not great right now. It's late (for me) and I took my Progesterone which makes me a sleepy baby.

[Major_Decoy]

3 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

 

Think it's 8%, no? We aren't adding an additional 800% of current, we're multiplying current by 8. Am I mistaken?

 

Yes, you're mistaken. It's 50 damage to 450 damage, that's +800% or x9. You're getting hit three times as often and taking three times as much damage. (5% chance of being hit to 15% chance of being hit, 10% of damage taken to 30% of damage taken)

Edited December 19 by Major_Decoy

[SomeGuy]

3 hours ago, Sebastian said:

Every person who says SS rage is overpowered whilst we have clear results from a metric bleep tonne of pylon and mission clear speed tests showing it is middling needs their access to testing revoked and to be issued an iq test immediately. 

 

 

I personally don't think it's overpowered. I just think the set relies to much on it to be in the talks with other better tuned sets. The rest of the set needs a rework to not depend on it so much. Rage was a lazy AF band-aid fix to the set that served the dual purpose of also making it stand out. UM isn't that (well, it does help it stand out).

 

UM > Rage

 

My complaint about UM? Which is, ironically, also shared with Rage, is that it boosts DMG. If you are DMG capped, it really doesn't give much. If you are DMG capped, you most likely also have a pretty hefty TOHIT bonus going on. That's some bonus eggs and ideal situation complaining right there.

 

@Wavicle, you hurt my brain. You have said things in this thread I 100% agree with and other things I totally scratch my head at and want to put you on my ignore list. That's...talent?

Edited December 19 by SomeGuy

[Major_Decoy]

So, what if we did do the route of "Hitting all forms of damage mitigation"?

 

Change the -25% endurance to -12% endurance, -12% health.

Change the -10% Defense, -20% resistance to... - 5% defense, - 10% resistance, -5% max endurance, -5% max health? (I don't know, there's not exactly a formula to convert between defense and health/endurance)

 

I think it might still be too punitive?

[Wavicle]

1 minute ago, Major_Decoy said:

So, what if we did do the route of "Hitting all forms of damage mitigation"?

 

Change the -25% endurance to -12% endurance, -12% health.

Change the -10% Defense, -20% resistance to... - 5% defense, - 10% resistance, -5% max endurance, -5% max health? (I don't know, there's not exactly a formula to convert between defense and health/endurance)

 

I think it might still be too punitive?

It’s a solution in search of a problem.

[Wavicle]

16 minutes ago, SomeGuy said:

@Wavicle, you hurt my brain. You have said things in this thread I 100% agree with and other things I totally scratch my head at and want to put you on my ignore list. That's...talent?

I'm a pretty reasonable person, what bothered you?

[Gobbledigook]

12 minutes ago, Major_Decoy said:

So, what if we did do the route of "Hitting all forms of damage mitigation"?

 

Change the -25% endurance to -12% endurance, -12% health.

Change the -10% Defense, -20% resistance to... - 5% defense, - 10% resistance, -5% max endurance, -5% max health? (I don't know, there's not exactly a formula to convert between defense and health/endurance)

 

I think it might still be too punitive?

What if the Rage crash gave an effect like the dampening bubble effect on enemies in force fields and have reduced stats by a percentage. Damage would be reduced during the crash by a hefty amount but not totally. Same for def/res/end etc

Edited December 19 by Gobbledigook

[ScarySai]

2 hours ago, SomeGuy said:

If you are DMG capped, it really doesn't give much.

 

It does give it a slight buff since it increases the damage scales of ss's attacks. At least enough to make SS's st presence less pathetic.

 

Likely will need a buff if proc stacking is ever addressed.

[SomeGuy]

1 hour ago, ScarySai said:

 

It does give it a slight buff since it increases the damage scales of ss's attacks. At least enough to make SS's st presence less pathetic.

 

Likely will need a buff if proc stacking is ever addressed.

 

 

Oooooooh, good point. I didn't even think about that. The bonus damage it adds to SS attacks alters their base damage, and that part isn't a +DMG thing (this is how my brain is thinking of it). I think I'm liking UM even more now. Thanks!

[Troo]

18 minutes ago, SomeGuy said:

Oooooooh, good point. I didn't even think about that. The bonus damage it adds to SS attacks alters their base damage, and that part isn't a +DMG thing (this is how my brain is thinking of it). I think I'm liking UM even more now. Thanks!

 

Yeah.. in many cases Unleashed Might is much better than Rage and sometimes better than double stacked Rage.

[Troo]

Interesting the laser focus on capped defense and capped resistance. Not everyone or every character has capped survival tools. Rage is available at level 18, not just level 50.

• If a character has 50% Resistance to S/L and 40% to F/C/E/N then a -20% can be a big hit. (a player might actually, *gasp* consider that a.. nerf)
• If a character has 30% Defense then -10% can be a big hit. (but it's better than -20%)
• Both -10% & -20% at the same time can be a very big hit. (sort of equates to -20% of just defense or -40% of just resistance and 100% in conflict with the stated goal)

 

The following statement leans very heavily on the terms "meant" & "more": "This change is meant to make the crash more equitable across all Armor pairings"

• Makes sense with tunnel vision for specific use cases.

 

For characters that use both Defense and Resistance it is a double whammy especially for those without expensive builds or capped survival tools. It is punitive or at least the opposite of "more equitable".

 

The propose changes with a sliding scale based on level would actually be more along the lines of fairness and equal treatment.

The game is not limited to being two or three dimensional. 

 

Can't wait for Super Strength proliferation! Stalkers will simply get a version of Super Build-Up and be the best version of the powerset.

[BrandX]

32 minutes ago, Troo said:

Interesting the laser focus on capped defense and capped resistance. Not everyone or every character has capped survival tools. Rage is available at level 18, not just level 50.

• If a character has 50% Resistance to S/L and 40% to F/C/E/N then a -20% can be a big hit. (a player might actually, *gasp* consider that a.. nerf)
• If a character has 30% Defense then -10% can be a big hit. (but it's better than -20%)
• Both -10% & -20% at the same time can be a very big hit. (sort of equates to -20% of just defense or -40% of just resistance and 100% in conflict with the stated goal)

 

The following statement leans very heavily on the terms "meant" & "more": "This change is meant to make the crash more equitable across all Armor pairings"

• Makes sense with tunnel vision for specific use cases.

 

For characters that use both Defense and Resistance it is a double whammy especially for those without expensive builds or capped survival tools. It is punitive or at least the opposite of "more equitable".

 

The propose changes with a sliding scale based on level would actually be more along the lines of fairness and equal treatment.

The game is not limited to being two or three dimensional. 

 

Can't wait for Super Strength proliferation! Stalkers will simply get a version of Super Build-Up and be the best version of the powerset.

 

But it's always been that and as you said, they get it early, they're likely using it early and how many of them are going "Oooooh noooo!  I shouldn't have used Rage?"

 

So, all those people used it before their builds were made solid did just fine, they'll do just fine again.  It's 10 seconds after 2 minutes of up time.

[OverkillEngine]

51 minutes ago, Troo said:

Can't wait for Super Strength proliferation! Stalkers will simply get a version of Super Build-Up and be the best version of the powerset.

And Assassin's Haymaker.

It's just an exaggerated Kanchō animation. So yeah, best version.

[Major_Decoy]

58 minutes ago, Troo said:

Interesting the laser focus on capped defense and capped resistance. Not everyone or every character has capped survival tools. Rage is available at level 18, not just level 50.

• If a character has 50% Resistance to S/L and 40% to F/C/E/N then a -20% can be a big hit. (a player might actually, *gasp* consider that a.. nerf)
• If a character has 30% Defense then -10% can be a big hit. (but it's better than -20%)
• Both -10% & -20% at the same time can be a very big hit. (sort of equates to -20% of just defense or -40% of just resistance and 100% in conflict with the stated goal)

 

The following statement leans very heavily on the terms "meant" & "more": "This change is meant to make the crash more equitable across all Armor pairings"

• Makes sense with tunnel vision for specific use cases.

 

For characters that use both Defense and Resistance it is a double whammy especially for those without expensive builds or capped survival tools. It is punitive or at least the opposite of "more equitable".

 

The propose changes with a sliding scale based on level would actually be more along the lines of fairness and equal treatment.

The game is not limited to being two or three dimensional. 

 

Can't wait for Super Strength proliferation! Stalkers will simply get a version of Super Build-Up and be the best version of the powerset.

 

Yeah, I was doing some napkin figures about that.

 

The 100 attacks for 100 damage over 10 seconds

 

45% defense, 90% resistance: 50 damage before crash, 450 damage during, 400 more damage

45% defense, 0% resistance: 500 damage before crash, 1800 damage during, 1300 more damage

0% defense, 90% resistance: 500 damage before crash, 1800 damage during, 1300 more damage

20% defense, 50% resistance: 1500 damage before crash, 2800 damage during, 1300 more damage

10% defense, 20% resistance: 3200 damage before crash, 5000 damage during, 1800 more damage

0% defense, 0% resistance: 5000 damage before crash, 7200 damage during, 2200 more damage

 

So it's clear that the less defense and less resistance you have, the worse the crash is for you. 

 

[Maelwys]

9 hours ago, ScarySai said:

1: Savage, claws and martial should be performing well above ss for brutes with the changes coming up, as they already beat SS for tanks.

 

2: Trapdoor overvalued smashing damage, as more than half of the mobs were robots, and warwolf spawns made lethal damage dubious.

The section of conversation you're quoting and responding to here is addressing a fallacy about -ToHit debuffs (namely, that Trapdoor was supposedly riddled with those debuffs to the point where they're causing cascade missing for anything that isn't getting a constant ~30% ToHit per Rage stack).

If we're going back to talking about damage; yeah Trapdoor absolutely had lots of flaws even in the "original" format. And lots of things have also changed since Ston compiled that particular set of test results. Such as the recharge changes to epic blasts; Battleaxe rework; Tanker radius changes and 'overcap' damage reductions; etc. which makes it unhelpful for ballparking the current rankings... especially if we're just looking at "in-set" powers rather than an expanded chain that includes epics and such. However Ston's produced updated metrics on the Discord which specifically looks at the current performance of each powerset purely with just the in-set powers.



So with everything-and-the-kitchen-sink procs in the mix; it looks like SS-with-Rage is sitting at 19th out of 23 and SS-with-Unleashed-Might has moved up to 14th out of 23.
Which bodes well; even if it's not quite an indicator of "optimised attack chain" standings.



Regarding Rage (to try to steer these ramblings back on track a bit)... I think it's safe to say that the direction the Devs have gone here with Unleashed Might is being well received... however the direction they're apparently going with Rage - trying to poke at its crash to make it more "equitable" across more characters whilst keeping it highly punitive - is considerably more controversial (⛔💩🕵️‍♂️). Suffice to say that the devs are very, very aware and I'd not be surprised if Rage eventually locks in looking slightly different (or even drastically different) compared to what it looks like right now.
If they're intending to keep UM as a mutually exclusive option with Rage (which I do think is a good idea) then both UM and Rage need to be "viable" in slightly different ways. IMO Rage as a stackable click buff (especially one with a "crash") should be capable of spiking SS's performance higher than UM as a set-and-forget toggle buff... however whether or not that actually translates to SS-with-Rage being ranked higher than "middle of the road" whenever epics and other off-set powers are considered and/or whenever only in-powerset attacks are considered (as per the above table)? We'll see. I'll be watching that one closely.
 

Edited December 19 by Maelwys

[aethereal]

2 hours ago, Major_Decoy said:

 

So it's clear that the less defense and less resistance you have, the worse the crash is for you. 

 

 

Under those implicit assumptions, yes.  But I think those implicit assumptions are bad.

 

You're doing those tests as though it were realistic that a character with 0% mitigation would be taking on the same raw damage as a character with fully capped mitigation.  But that's not really realistic: we up the challenge level as we get more powerful.  Nobody runs a minmaxed level 50 tank with a super sophisticated build solo on +0/x1, and vice versa nobody solos +4/x8 at level 1.

 

The higher your defenses/resists (without overcapping), the worse the crash is for you on percentage terms.  That is, if we assume that for each point of mitigation you obtain, you up the amount of raw incoming damage such that your mitigated incoming damage is constant, then the rage crash gets worse as you level, not better.

 

I also don't think that that assumption (that you fully adjust for a constant mitigated damage stream) is realistic.

 

This is a case where I'd actually suggest that I think it's going to be a little difficult to just think through the change.  I think some of the people who are fearing that the proposed Rage crash is super punitive actually test it out.  It might surprise you.

[Sovera]

11 hours ago, Steampunkette said:

Hybrid sets kinda sorta don't exist for the purposes of this stuff?

 

Bio Armor and Willpower are the "Hybrid" sets that have Defense and Resistance. But they also specifically don't overlap too much on their defenses and resistances.

 

They're both S/L Resist, Energy/Element Defense. With Bio getting Toxic Resist and Willpower getting Psionic Resist.

 

Unless their enemies are hitting them with every damage type (hint, they won't be), they'll be -less- affected by the debuff than a Defense or Resistance character since they actually rely, mostly, on Regeneration and Self-Healing. 

 

Meanwhile Regen, with no defense or resistance to speak of, is in the same boat.

 

 

 

I was precisely thinking how Bio would/will be slammed by this. In the end game most things that do energy damage do -def (most robots even if not all). Bio has mediocre E/N defenses (requires all tricks to softcap so not a big buffer) and piss poor E/N resistances. 

 

 

10 hours ago, Psi-bolt said:

Duplicate post sorry.

 

You can hide posts when this happens.

 

[PyroBeetle]

I think the problem that I have is that I have tested Rage with the proposed changes on my Regen/SS tank, and have not noticed a great amount of difference in his survival, probably because he has so many different "panic" buttons, with the sorcery pool, melee and MoG all set to be pressed in a difficult scenario. He has to rely on these a bit more than before, but not to any great degree, whereas before he rarely relied on Melee at all and only occasionally pressed RoP. In short, he functions just fine, even with the changes due to being over engineered for survival. Don't get me wrong he still does good damage due to procced out attacks, but he is still a tank.

 

What disappoints me the most is I was looking forward to doing a SS Brute with the new UM and resulting changes to Hand Clap and all of the SS powers. It was an entirely new way of using the set, not balanced around proc bombing, and I rather enjoyed the flexibility. However, because of all the whining about why can't Rage get the new Hand Clap, which is basically nothing more than jealousy that another kid got a toy that you want, or Brutes do more Damage than Tanks now, which is like complaining that water is wet, that the dev team will decide to scrap all of the changes and then because there are a couple of active posters who scream its not fair, that the rest of us will then not get to enjoy what looked to be well thought out and considered changes, when things are evaluated mathematically.

 

Not to mention that calling into question the devs ability and motivations is just rude. They are volunteers who work damn hard to keep this game going and growing. I donate to help but by no means do I think that gives me the right to disparage their efforts just because I dont agree with a change they are proposing. I wish all people had that basic level of maturity.

[Shin Magmus]

1 hour ago, PyroBeetle said:

What disappoints me the most is I was looking forward to doing a SS Brute with the new UM and resulting changes to Hand Clap and all of the SS powers. It was an entirely new way of using the set, not balanced around proc bombing, and I rather enjoyed the flexibility. However, because of all the whining about why can't Rage get the new Hand Clap, which is basically nothing more than jealousy that another kid got a toy that you want, or Brutes do more Damage than Tanks now, which is like complaining that water is wet, that the dev team will decide to scrap all of the changes and then because there are a couple of active posters who scream its not fair, that the rest of us will then not get to enjoy what looked to be well thought out and considered changes, when things are evaluated mathematically.

   First time?  I've had characters eviscerated for no reason too, to say nothing of the Beanbag incident.  Maybe direct your feedback towards the devs constantly scrapping changes instead of finding compromises or listening to player feedback?

[BrandX]

6 hours ago, Major_Decoy said:

 

Yeah, I was doing some napkin figures about that.

 

The 100 attacks for 100 damage over 10 seconds

 

45% defense, 90% resistance: 50 damage before crash, 450 damage during, 400 more damage

45% defense, 0% resistance: 500 damage before crash, 1800 damage during, 1300 more damage

0% defense, 90% resistance: 500 damage before crash, 1800 damage during, 1300 more damage

20% defense, 50% resistance: 1500 damage before crash, 2800 damage during, 1300 more damage

10% defense, 20% resistance: 3200 damage before crash, 5000 damage during, 1800 more damage

0% defense, 0% resistance: 5000 damage before crash, 7200 damage during, 2200 more damage

 

So it's clear that the less defense and less resistance you have, the worse the crash is for you. 

 

 

I don't think anyone is saying you won't take more damage, only that people are blowing it out of proportion.  Rage crashes aren't killing people now.  Tankers and Brutes have higher resists and health than Scrappers and the -Resist (which is really what people seem to be complaining about) will put them down to Scrapper levels...for 10 seconds.

 

Now let's go with the 50's game...what are you going to have to go along with this crash...oh...things like Barrier or Melee Hybrid or Rebirth.  So it really shouldn't be a problem at the 50+ game.  Oh, you know, also those little inspirations.

 

Then there's those who just happen to over cap that resistance.

 

But sure, look at percentages make some people all scared when people have been running rage on less than optimal builds and staying alive.

 

Now other complaints, like why can't SS get new Hand Clap just because of Rage, that seems valid.

[PeregrineFalcon]

During the Rage crash eat a purple and/or orange shield and ignore it.

 

You all are crying about something that can be solved with a single tier 1 inspiration.

[ScarySai]

5 hours ago, Maelwys said:

The section of conversation you're quoting and responding to here is addressing a fallacy about -ToHit debuffs (namely, that Trapdoor was supposedly riddled with those debuffs to the point where they're causing cascade missing for anything that isn't getting a constant ~30% ToHit per Rage stack).

 

It wasn't a fallacy, because follow up has to hit it's target, and the brute tests ston did slotted no/minimal accuracy.

5 hours ago, Maelwys said:

trying to poke at its crash to make it more "equitable" across more characters whilst keeping it highly punitive - is considerably more controversial (⛔💩🕵️‍♂️

That's the problem though. It's proven beyond a shadow of a doubt to not even be that strong, but they're making the crash worse for everyone and not just "equitable for resist armorsets."

 

People are mad because it's stupid.

 

If tanker base damage is that scary to some people, they've never seen a well kitted blaster or scrapper. If they're concerned about porting rage to scrappers, just don't. Easy.

Edited Friday at 05:30 PM by ScarySai

[skoryy]

As far as feedback, Inv/SS with UM does feel like it goes through Council +4/x8 at a slower pace, but I also will probably need to take my notes from @Maelwys and fix her up some so that she'll hit harder. On the other hand, with Hasten, Dull Pain, and Ageless as her only clickies, I don't have to keep too close an eye on them and can focus on new things like aiming Hand Clap in the right direction.

[Maelwys]

58 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

It wasn't a fallacy, because follow up has to hit it's target, and the brute tests ston did slotted no/minimal accuracy.

Is is too a fallacy, because follow up grants chonky +ToHit just like Rage does; therefore if +ToHit was the sole factor in winning the scenario (as was originally being claimed) both their powersets would be taking the top spots on the leaderboard. But it isn't; and they're not.

_{(Also Follow Up is affected by its own +ToHit and so cascades towards hitting; and even the regular builds are showing an attack hit rate before clamping of at least 111%. So they're hardly struggling to begin with!)}

  

58 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

That's the problem though. It's proven beyond a shadow of a doubt to not even be that strong, but they're making the crash worse for everyone and not just "equitable for resist armorsets."

 

People are mad because it's stupid.

IMO people are mad because they hate Rage's crash; and many feel that if the devs are going to spend time poking at it then they might as well make the crash go away entirely instead of attempting to make that crash less impactful to some at the expense of others (and/or doing the powers equivalent of drawing a mustache on it...) 🥸
 

[Troo]

Maybe it's the asinine use of the term "equitable" in a game where balance is as elusive as finding a pot of gold at the end of a rainbow.

 

 

Rage change effects lower level characters disproportionately compared to higher level characters which then also have more tools to alleviate a crash.

 

Then we have Unleashed Might which as a toggle out performs a click with a crash. That just shouldn't happen.

 

Lagging powers in Super Strength get a boost ONLY if players take Unleashed Might. 

 

What a hot mess of classic homecoming hits: "forced respecs", "play our way", "spreadsheet design > fun", "for what, to stay mediocre?"

 

 

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