Sanguinesun

So creepily creeping against progression creep when that's not really the creep intended. Or more or less its just being creepy.

Its again not just about the highest priced item in itself, its about the intent to make more time sinks and with high priced solutions for it. That same formula being a potential method then going forward, again given the trend by devs and what they're saying with leveling, is what I'm saying should be looked at with concern. Its the direction/trajectory.

The number of doors to click is not always the best situation for a location. Look at the motel in PI hero side. Its got 14 doors, right next to the hospital for face plants and very short distance to leveling up and vendors as needed as well. Last night there were 3 PI maps running leagues there. However, like your cited location, doors are rather spread out. When PI hits cap of players on its map, all of whom are hitting those 14 doors, it not only spreads out the leagues efforts a bit too much in my opinion. So while the conveniences of a hospital and leveling a little more distant, Warf's spot 8 doors on one segment of a building tend to keep eveyone together and mobs aggro'd more centrally between 1 main and 2 side choke points and since its not as popular as the PI lagfest, the league team membership tends to be not competing with secondary leagues and smidge smaller for better exp per kill distribution. So a 19 door location isnt necessarily going to be more efficient/better and in conjunction with the mechanics for getting tot spawns too. Yes hero side khalisti warf is what I consider the best area and when the zombie event starts its pretty easy to mop up both in the same spot without issue either. The banners event's a bit more stretched out compared to PI imo but its still pretty doable. Eochai and Jack spawns are also much much easier in the Warf compared to PI due to some spawning on the GM island areas.

1. Its an exploit of the market (dev side) because of the lack of sustainability/issues with prices. It it helps, consider it more a market manipulation name wise. 2. The seeding isn't a constant. Buy out quantities when the seeding pops or hasnt seeded yet then flip higher. That's why there are pockets of time when the uncommon salvage jumps above 15k-20k a pop as one example. False equivalency. If you're comparing to live where I already cited the function/purpose of the market, that you already agreed with, then citing makes little relevance. Higher then with still being too high now and a discouragement for players doesn't depreciate the issue of it being unreasonable. As for a clamor for inf sinks, can you cite some threads of examples of this so as to put into context who and why they're calling for it for reference sake? Again false equivalencies meant to say because they got it seemingly worse that CoH should have it bad as it is. Citing Champions Online is also in itself ironic given that cryptic built that game as well and it has resulted in what it is today, at the expense of its players.... I'm not making a comparison to the market rate by players selling aethers that you erroneously seem to think. There is no fear mongering as you wish to perceive(or claim as a tactic). My point with citing the incoming cost of the costumes for the next phase being up to and including individual costume price costs up to 1500 (again for one item) aethers was to cite that IF the system were turned into a Developer set price for the market where players no longer made auctions but instead simply purchased for a flat price items that they would set the pricing for such to be very high in order to increase the time gating of the game from its current state. Given your responses, I understand your seeming confusion with what I'm trying to say. What I'm trying to convey is: 1. The current system is a bandaid on a brain tumor of a mess. 2. That new players are discouraged by the current system in place to play the game. 3. That unraveling and sorting that mess will, per the trend of recent dev decisions, result in a system that would favor their desire to see the game return to a longer, time gated, play experience. I cited that this has been exemplified in both the decision for costs for purchasing upcoming costumes being high and that essentially in that thread it was alluded to that devs want things(not just the aether grind) to take longer. 4. That the current system is in a sort of limbo(an empasse) because the fundamental changes that would have to be implemented to it would pretty much cause more contention. You've cited one gaming of the system there. Others(especially the anti farming ilk) would cite AE farms as another. Getting them lower and flipping them higher as I cited and as Im sure you've done on occasion. There are also other market activities where players buy from the market at 10 then vendor trash for 100k (IO regular recipes), or similar with SO's for lower but still influence making, using other systems in the game to produce items quickly that can be sold for easy influence that people talk about all the time for similar and the list really does go on and on . Saying though that things are all at a set level is just disingenuous on the market. It is disheartening when you see new players come into the game, get sticker shock from the prices in the market, explain how they can go earn influence to get what they want or such and they seem to have their interests wane there after. The game's economy is one of the most flawed aspects of the game that feeds into so much else in the game including not a small number of contentions in the community(like the pro/anti farming debates). Then when you have devs saying(and not the first time): Again, leveling (as they perceive it) fast is an ---issue----. Not an acceptable way of playing the game but an issue. They perceive the game suffering because of it. That means there are devs or a even consensus from the dev team that wishes to change that. There are also some players of course in their wheelhouse of thinking too about that. This is why I said the evidence is compelling that if they made a standardized flat rate system for all salvage, IO sets listings, etc that it would be high in influence costs as to make things take more time. I could even see them removing purchase by influence in favor of a more gated system such as with merits as folks level or any number of combinations of things resulting in satisfying their desire to see an increase in time spent. And again though, the results would eventually create a similar situation, potentially worse than what we have now as players have become comfortable/accustomed to the current pace of play, though acknowledging the poor economics of the game. I don't look at it as scaring people as you wish to frame it. I look at it as something folks should be mindful of if the community is more inclined to not agree with the status quo of things now, the seeming mindset of the dev team and decisions being made now and potentially going forward.

Exactly since called non-Japanese insects and declared "rules" that he'll block any non Japanese post in responses to his posts (yet write that threat in English) and then treat/comment poorly about that voice actress as he did in his response to her video posts concerning the way she was treated.

As I said, it went poof: Profile / Twitter Bayonetta director Hideki Kamiya’s Twitter account disappears amid voice actor controversy - Dexerto

Your build expends more endurance (at its base) than it recovers among other things. Also water jet is your highest single target power that can be pretty much insta cast pretty often too. I highly suggest for you to look at Sir Myshkin's Storm/Energy blast 3.0 build that they made in this thread: Its Tornado does much more damage(like 400 more), has more defense/resistance and you can attain the same high recharge times. Just take it in mids and switch out the energy for water and shift/add around the water sets as needed while leaving the storm side untouched. I have to mirror as well krim's suggestions with gale(as mirrored by the choices in Sir Myshkin's build as well. And incarnate choices and the passive accolades really help flesh that out. And lastly, remember changes that are incoming to the game will allow you to take some powers much earlier, helping to allow different choices in set ups that may influence your build as well.

The builds, attack change and more seen would be something to look at in order to assess the testing conditions/variables etc. Im not trying to necessarily invalidate what you're saying but saying that more empirical evidence would help support it.

This is a "let them have cake sentiment" and your method (which is a misdirect from the over bearing/over arching issues of the game economy) is reliant on symptom treating and not treating the cause. Its an intentional misdirection. The auction house is a blind econ game system and was originally intended to be a part of the mechanisms to keep players sub'd and micro transacting. It is easily exploited then (as now), the current iteration requires seeding by HC for sustainability(in itself a form of exploiting), and is a poorly managed influence sink. In other words, its a complete mess. The market and game system as it stands is a strong discouragement for new players even after you take pains to explain to them how to circumvent the costs of things on the market wither either exploiting the market as mentioned above or through other means (farming etc). However, I also do think that any overhauling of the system by the HC devs would ensure --no-- satisfaction for anyone except the "game as a longer time sink" proponents. An overhaul would most likely involve removal of the market from a player standpoint and replace it with a set standard influence costs system listing every salvage and recipe available. Problem is that the costs would be set by HC devs to be so high as to essentially be the time gating system I warned of above. Seeing the prices they set for the seeding salvage currently AND that of the cost for the aesthetic costume menagerie mess they're talking about in the testing(up to 1500 aethers for 1 item), it is easy to see that they'd apply the same mindset to their overhaul. So the issues are at an impasse... for now. Best players can do is to teach more how to game the system, players to farm and farm more and teach others to do the same and many other things because eventually, the system will change, but just very very likely, as I said, not to the liking of most players.

This thread reminds me of Hideki Kamiya's recent blocking tirades on twitter that just led to his twitter account going poof.

Given the upcoming changes for necro involving their attacks spawning pets, necro's will now be the only mm that can't run as a petless challenge one too 😛

So 5400 aethers for everything (to this point...). I mean sure, if someone was running one 4star ITF a day for the next 270 days consecutively, they could get everything in under a year. Or 540 toons during this month's halloween event or if there were enough on the market(which there only around 1600 aether currently on excelsior's AH), one could spend a tad over 24 billion instantly for the current market rate for a full amount of them. But of course, let's not dip into absurdities. So yes we recognize its working as intended per your intentions...

Given the mindset of devs saying that think character progression is too fast and an "issue" and in conjunction with this return to reward grinding heavy time sinks for these costume things, the real question that to me is most disconcerting is, is this then the beginning of the reversal of the game players have grown accustomed to enjoying in a more relaxed atmosphere on HC and are we returning back to the days of exclusivity attitudes so poisonously groomed by the live devs then (which was for the purposes of subs/mis(influence of ego marketing as that was)....? The evidence seems to be increasingly compelling that's happening. It also sees obvious this is just the beginning of this feature creep with the function and use of aethers(and lord recluse only knows what else down the pipeline). I get devs want to create some new things and a time sink for them, but it sure does seem like this is very excessive and with the future to be more so. Make plain then if collectively the team's intents are to return to the "good ole days". The community should more transparently know. Personally, I could care less about these current 1500+ aethers worth of grind offerings. Again iIts the thinking that this is ok and should be accept with more/worse to come that is what I and perhaps others see as a concern per what I mentioned already above. And yes, its a shame we lost some folks this week as Faultline has eluded to seemingly derisively. Perhaps those that have left or thinking about leaving see these sorts of attitudes and shifts in the service of/with the community as part of the reasons why? Of course that's an uncomfortable thing to consider for those that have taken extensive pride in their efforts with the community on both sides respectively. But all this isn't happening in a vacuum.

Well just make sure they showered first I suppose....

The link is just to the wiki for downloading an iteration of City of Heroes Issue 26 to play on your own.

Ah yes, I'm sure the interest and participation in such streams would be golden.

I understand you enjoy playing differently from others and have different interests in those regards. Saying though that ae farmers dont know the AH or other aspects of play of the game seems a bit inane, especially when they've helped the market actually have things more readily available for folks. There are also farmers who farm fund running costume contests and have streamed both their farming and those contests on twitch and brought new people to enjoy the game (Stillkiller is a prime example of this). Many people farm as well as play play other content in the game. But even if they didnt, how they play and enjoy is their choice. There are RPer's who also never join msr's, trials or other things such things too for example. That's their method of enjoyment. That's their choice too. There's nothing wrong with any of that. Its just some elitist perception to be otherwise usually. As has been discussed over and over again, farming in CoH has existed in the same manner even before AE existed when people used mission maps they reset and when the sidekick system was a tad different. People dont all play at the same time on high pop servers or with the ability to move at the pace that others do(there are disabled folks who have mentioned such on here over the years.). Some also do not always like to be expected to be on teams, dealing others.... dynamics. Some folks just like to be around others to varying levels but not necessarily teaming with them and prefer to do things on their own. We've a wide variety of people and their CoH interests. No one should be seeking to invalidate or marginalize them. On to your ToT complaints though. PI leagues tend to have more afkers. Not just out of the intentional nature to do it but just out of the statistical nature of having 48 people on a max team grinding for hours. Those PI groups have also the issue that they do go full on 6 teams(watering down the exp) and multiples leagues vying for doors at the motel. Every time I've done the Warf ones however, those leagues have been 3-4 teams to keep exp good, little to no competition issues for doors and afkers tend to get smacked easier due to smaller league situation and how the teams shift between the doors. Thus mostly I think warf teams progress faster in their efforts than the pi ones. The pi ones just tend to be the most ongoing constant ones because everyone's just become accustomed to going to PI. Maybe I've just had good luck in those regards but its something to consider. With my anecdotal example I leveled a toon from 1-50, unlocked all its incarnate slots, got just shy of 400 threads, the badges, the aethers, over 200 merits and 33 mil influence from ToT'ing a over the last few days. I mixed between both PI and Warf doing so with typically the warf runs getting me 2-3 levels for every 1 level I got in PI due to the info I mentioned before. I was actively participating of course cept a few min here n there to go to the bathroom/grab a drink(like a large majority of folks do). Mind you though, I can level an alt in a farm exceedingly faster, however but sans the event badges/goodies, but with more drops thus more influence of course. All in all, again, people in enjoy the game in different ways. While on TOT's people being afk 100% the time is not nice, the leads of those teams have the right to kick em and put some one else on(unless the leads afk hehe). They also can choose not to, they made the league after all. Thus making your own league and policing it as you wish is something as well to consider. But lumping that sort of thing together with farming in general when as a whole someone says others need to play their way because they dont understand or dislike the way others play differently, its basically silly elitism.

Will there be a Mock-you-mentary to follow on YouRube?

Field of Dreams...

What about this then? It has better recovery when conserve power is down. Better resists on energy but little less on toxic and only .05% less on fire/cold (after cardiac). Trading then for much better defenses(which have become more important arguably now. You also gain better to hit, regen, damage, and about another 10% recharge and another 100 hp or so. Dropped from your powers are 1. Fly you can grab from the p2w vendor to free up things as well. 2. Touch of fear(as it was only a mule for your io set and redundant with cloak) 3. Soul Transfer (situational and not really helpful when weighing better options. 4. Focused accuracy (because tactics was added and slots added to full slot it with more useful things). 5. Oppressive gloom (again a mule power with changes above had the slots going to other powers made for better use). 6. Switched a few other io's or dropped 1 slots from some powers to get the above benefits. Depending on your other obvs choices like barrier for incarnates the small changes to your resists would be none of course. To me it seems overall a better set up but it depends on your intentions too. This Hero build was built using Mids Reborn 3.4.7 https://github.com/LoadedCamel/MidsReborn Click this DataLink to open the build! Halloween Ghast: Level 50 Magic Tanker Primary Power Set: Dark Armor Secondary Power Set: Dark Melee Power Pool: Leadership Power Pool: Speed Power Pool: Leaping Power Pool: Fighting Ancillary Pool: Energy Mastery Hero Profile: Level 1: Death Shroud (A) Superior Might of the Tanker - Accuracy/Damage (3) Superior Might of the Tanker - Damage/Recharge (3) Superior Might of the Tanker - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge (5) Superior Might of the Tanker - Damage/Endurance/Recharge (5) Superior Might of the Tanker - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance/Recharge (7) Superior Might of the Tanker - Recharge/Chance for +Res(All) Level 1: Shadow Punch (A) Touch of Death - Accuracy/Damage (7) Touch of Death - Damage/Recharge (9) Touch of Death - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance (9) Touch of Death - Damage/Endurance/Recharge (11) Touch of Death - Chance of Damage(Negative) Level 2: Dark Embrace (A) Unbreakable Guard - Resistance (11) Unbreakable Guard - Resistance/Endurance (13) Unbreakable Guard - Endurance/RechargeTime (15) Unbreakable Guard - Resistance/Endurance/RechargeTime Level 4: Murky Cloud (A) Unbreakable Guard - Resistance (15) Unbreakable Guard - Resistance/Endurance (17) Unbreakable Guard - Endurance/RechargeTime (17) Unbreakable Guard - RechargeTime/Resistance (19) Unbreakable Guard - Resistance/Endurance/RechargeTime (19) Unbreakable Guard - +Max HP Level 6: Obsidian Shield (A) Unbreakable Guard - Resistance (21) Unbreakable Guard - Resistance/Endurance (21) Unbreakable Guard - Endurance/RechargeTime (23) Unbreakable Guard - Resistance/Endurance/RechargeTime Level 8: Dark Regeneration (A) Touch of the Nictus - Healing/Absorb (25) Touch of the Nictus - Healing/Absorb/Recharge (25) Touch of the Nictus - Accuracy/Healing/Absorb (27) Touch of the Nictus - Accuracy/Endurance/Healing/Absorb (27) Touch of the Nictus - Accuracy/Endurance/Recharge (29) Touch of the Nictus - Chance for Negative Energy Damage Level 10: Taunt (A) Perfect Zinger - Chance for Psi Damage Level 12: Cloak of Darkness (A) Shield Wall - Defense/Endurance (13) Shield Wall - Defense/Endurance/Recharge (29) Shield Wall - Defense (31) Shield Wall - +Res (Teleportation), +5% Res (All) Level 14: Shadow Maul (A) Armageddon - Damage (31) Armageddon - Damage/Recharge (31) Armageddon - Damage/Recharge/Accuracy (33) Armageddon - Recharge/Accuracy (33) Armageddon - Damage/Endurance (33) Armageddon - Chance for Fire Damage Level 16: Siphon Life (A) Superior Gauntleted Fist - Accuracy/Damage (34) Superior Gauntleted Fist - Damage/RechargeTime (34) Superior Gauntleted Fist - Accuracy/Damage/RechargeTime (34) Superior Gauntleted Fist - Damage/Endurance/RechargeTime (36) Superior Gauntleted Fist - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance/RechargeTime (36) Superior Gauntleted Fist - RechargeTime/+Absorb Level 18: Cloak of Fear (A) Unspeakable Terror - Accuracy/Recharge (36) Unspeakable Terror - Accuracy/Endurance (37) Unspeakable Terror - Accuracy/Fear/Recharge Level 20: Maneuvers (A) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Increased Global Recharge Speed Level 22: Hasten (A) Recharge Reduction IO (39) Recharge Reduction IO Level 24: Combat Jumping (A) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Increased Global Recharge Speed (39) Reactive Defenses - Scaling Resist Damage (39) Kismet - Accuracy +6% Level 26: Kick (A) Force Feedback - Chance for +Recharge Level 28: Soul Drain (A) Scirocco's Dervish - Accuracy/Damage (42) Scirocco's Dervish - Damage/Recharge (42) Scirocco's Dervish - Accuracy/Recharge (42) Perfect Zinger - Accuracy/Recharge (43) Perfect Zinger - Chance for Psi Damage Level 30: Tough (A) Unbreakable Guard - Resistance/Endurance/RechargeTime (40) Unbreakable Guard - Resistance (40) Unbreakable Guard - Resistance/Endurance (40) Unbreakable Guard - RechargeTime/Resistance Level 32: Assault (A) Endurance Reduction IO Level 35: Dark Consumption (A) Synapse's Shock - EndMod (43) Synapse's Shock - Damage/Rechage (43) Synapse's Shock - EndMod/Recharge (45) Synapse's Shock - Damage/Recharge/Accuracy (45) Synapse's Shock - Damage/Accuracy/Endurance (45) Synapse's Shock - EndMod/Increased Run Speed Level 38: Midnight Grasp (A) Hecatomb - Damage (46) Hecatomb - Damage/Recharge (46) Hecatomb - Damage/Recharge/Accuracy (46) Hecatomb - Recharge/Accuracy (48) Hecatomb - Damage/Endurance (48) Hecatomb - Chance of Damage(Negative) Level 41: Weave (A) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Increased Global Recharge Speed (47) Luck of the Gambler - Defense (47) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Endurance Level 44: Conserve Power (A) Recharge Reduction IO Level 47: Tactics (A) Gaussian's Synchronized Fire-Control - Chance for Build Up (48) Gaussian's Synchronized Fire-Control - To Hit Buff/Endurance (49) Gaussian's Synchronized Fire-Control - To Hit Buff (49) Gaussian's Synchronized Fire-Control - To Hit Buff/Recharge/Endurance (50) Gaussian's Synchronized Fire-Control - To Hit Buff/Recharge (50) Gaussian's Synchronized Fire-Control - Recharge/Endurance Level 49: Physical Perfection (A) Numina's Convalesence - +Regeneration/+Recovery Level 1: Gauntlet Level 1: Brawl | Copy & Paste this data into Mids Reborn : Hero Designer to view the build | |-------------------------------------------------------------------| |MxDz;1655;712;1424;HEX;| |78DA75945B4F135110C7FFDB6E454A4B81B61404041168A152E1CD6BD4085E90262| |41A638CDA6C602D0DB5AD5BA2F02E5E3E818FBE78FF02DEBF81C61813AFDF40054C| |540423AEC34E070F104FB2EDEFCC9CF9CFCC39673739D1E77BF17C702F34DFFEAC5| |12CA68E19B931D3F2248D7466183402878C6C367FD134732D07478DE27819D9EA79| |51AACF3C6BE68A66A2CFB0C652FBAC73792B52F224CDAC59B23B88C0503E9F4D0C9| |AC6886915473305AF333F5A30CD119FB80A995CDAEF4C0E64D2A3E3340BF61732C3| |89FE9C69A5275349CA6E5A937554401B3D0FCAE947830CDB03BC7103BD3A5C782BF| |08E41C77B810F0CEBF091616E958C0E9CA4FFE8D292530CEB715AE00C8317298687| |14AD29D16E0DDF59D78B1F0C3ECC3154629EE11105B9D5CADD12542941551254859| |F0C35125D830586C724E351737B442624322191A995E8271454A62D376C7BCA1064| |4F1D420261860DA815883034A28E618164CA95DC2847D1E5789E92A742ADAA02076| |4230E8BCA00C3461C6198A720BFBA237E6C7395966C17D8C1D0829D02BB047633FC| |2299802A13C025DDF16CC294C065812B0C9B7155E01AC33392A956645CD57849D3A| |6A525AF18DAF09AA19ADE87A0BA1141843547A5953C61C5A3851187E3E910A8A525| |11355144823BF0CD5D824538895CB4B6FEDF55B3518F29EEFA3795DBA01CA9DE800| |BACDF8909814981F31CD425E7E526DD26F5BC9AE4AA44E53A45E53A45972F230535| |AB5D37D37E3A9E452AA655BD5FADF8A497327E16F8C2B005D3023302B30C7F48A65| |D3DC9767470BDDD880AC4043A19B6A24B20CEA0539D31758363B2C1098404AA186E| |506B71283DC5E59882A492508B49E09E24BACBD0839B02B7197A714BE00EC37D3FD| |0A36E5A0F8E6BCE57A4535FF90DB21B75A8C3768CB68DC1FFD88774359EEC1ADBA7| |BD2B85E9E9E69E66D67A62EC995DEB19E032BFAEF55CE7D6EC95634F90AC6A3F272| |2AB0C7F0178BDE421| |-------------------------------------------------------------------|

They're mocking.

That's sort of in the same vein as invalidating people's efforts, passions and interests that is at the heart of this thread.

My idea would be a hot topic but may have merit. Combine Tankers and Brutes, give the AT a new name and have Tank and Brute be respective modes(like a stance that staff fighting has), that switches to those respective damage/defense values currently exclusive to the two different ATs. The ATO's can also similarly be combined so that they trigger the current respective bonuses based on the brute/tanker mode they're in. The challenge then comes down to other IO set choices that can differ with the stance/mode chosen. this could be turned into the class having 2 different IO set/power/slot choices based on their stances or as a change to the issues between the two current classes, a requirement(challenge if you will intentionally) to choose as 1 build with compromises on either side. I'm just giving a very simplistic overview but when you look at both tanks and brutes, the only differences boil down to the number of targets, inherents of the ATs and respective defenses and damage stats. There's no other differences in the two classes unlike stalker vs scrapper distinctions in powers and powersets for example. All that can essentially be combined into 1 AT and potentially erase their complaints when compared to scrappers. People will of course be upset over potential loss of the two being separate identities even though the goal is taking the best of both of their worlds into 1 AT. To me the lines between the two AT's really have become so thin in recent years with HC's changes that this is starting to become more plausible if not potentially inevitable. Again, this is because I see HC having a trend to minimize differences between AT and power sets and if that's their goal this seems like something of consideration.

Questions: 1. How adamant are you to have in that build the Epic Ice mastery pool? 2. How adamant are you to use jumping pool? 3. How adamant are you to use the melee powers in the secondary? If the answer is that you're flexible to remove all 3 things, then I can suggest a build option with: 1. Potentially a 278% recharge time (this about 120% more than your current build but for st's that about 1s reduction and on aoes 5-8s reduction). If you pair choose agility core you can get a tiny bit more recharge but choosing musculature is more damage for you which personally i think would be better given your goals). 2. Slightly better tohit 3. Better overall damage(especially with musculature) and more single target and aoe damage. 4. More mob control 5. Being more exclusively at range and with better defenses and resistances as a whole(a by product from the other goals) 6. Almost doubling your recovery rate and slighly reducing your endurance drain 7. And a 25% improvement to regeneration. Otherwise, improvements in recharge become more challenging and not as pronounced as you'd potentially want with a goal of meaningful chances to get more attacks out in the same limited amount of time. Your builds deficits are in going too deep in jumping due to your desire for a small amount of melee that may just not be warranted, especially on teams. Let me know if that's a consideration.

Well now it seems that all the ducks are in a row and with all their fowlness in witty tow So is all the derision, sarcasm, and invalidation just feints or are the thems-with-no-stars the sinners and the stars-on-them-thars the saints? Whether such things apply to Neiska's condemnation or play into some sort of bias confirmation One can't help but find it compelling to mention how together the ducks did quack their contention Perhaps its just all a bantering of words but maybe its really just for the birds The placation is to say its all just a game so really what's meant is that its all just the same