are tankers still needed?

[Myrmidon]

9 hours ago, PaxArcana said:

... and everything is useful.

(Unless someone works REALLY gorram hard at intentionally being useless, of course. 😄 )

 

A Rad without debuffs is less than useful...

[boggo2300]

Are Brutes still needed? Scrappers? Stalkers? Corrupters? Dominators? Controllers? Defenders? Blasters? Masterminds? Epics?

 

No none of them are

 

All of my most fun teams, TF's and Raids have however included a good tank, every single one of them...

[PaxArcana]

1 hour ago, Myrmidon said:

 

A Rad without debuffs is less than useful...

Which Radiation powerset?

More importantly, what's their primary ...?

For example, a Radiation/Radiation Defender or Corruptor who (so far) has picked up only their blasts, and has only Radiant Aura, Accelerate Metabolism, and Mutate .... may not be AS useful as someone who grabbed more of the debuffs, but they are still useful.

[Moka]

The truth is no archetype is needed, except during Hamidon. Technically most archetypes can do what another archetype does, for the most part, without needing the other. A really decked out blaster doesn't need a tank or brute because they murder everything too fast, same for a scrapper.  A lot of people will argue defenders aren't needed at level 50 because fully IO'd people don't generally need a lot of help. Honestly, it's best to not look at City of Heroes with the 'Holy Trinity' of tank/heal/DPS in mind. 

[SlyGuyMcFly]

I agree the holy trinity has little use in CoH as a guideline for team building. To generalise what Moka said above me:

 

"A lot of people will argue that $archetype isn't needed because fully decked out toons don't need what $archetype brings to the table"

 

Blasters? Bring enough buffs/debuffs and you don't need their damage!

Tanks? Enough debuffs/buffs/control and you don't need their aggro management and survivability!

Defenders? Enough damage/mitigation and you don't need their buffs/debuffs!

Controllers? Enough taunts on the team and you don't need their CC!

...and so on down the list.

 

My own view on team building in CoH is more "Do we got enough killy-ness? Enough not-dying-ness? Yes and yes? Then we good."

Edited September 15, 2019 by SlyGuyMcFly

[jubakumbi]

47 minutes ago, SlyGuyMcFly said:

I agree the holy trinity has little use in CoH as a guideline for team building. 

...

My own view on team building in CoH is more "Do we got enough killy-ness? Enough not-dying-ness? Yes and yes? Then we good."

Building teams in CoH IMO is simply gathering the number of people with which you want to play.

It doesn't really matter what ATs are used.

I basically tank on all characters, I will happily go first, Indie!

[PaxArcana]

Exactly what SlyGuy says.

 

When I join a team, typically for a TF, I do look at everyone's archetype and powersets.  Not to see "do we have a viable team" - almost any four-or-more warm bodies is viable.  But rather, to see "what will everyone else be doing, and how can I best leverage my own powers to work well with that?"

 

🙂

[quietkane]

I agree with the main sentiment of the responses in this thread, but I think there's a critical element no one here has really touched on, yet.

 

City of Heroes is a social game.  The reason many of us still love this game 15 years later is because it has fostered a particular community.  And a community has certain assumptions and expectations.  A full quarter of Defenders are Empathy/X, even though Empathy is not optimal for a majority of content or a majority of teams, and it's not because other Defenders can't do the same job that Empaths do.

 

If you're a Brute with ridiculous IOs that cap your resists and allow you to live at, I dunno, 20% defense across the board, that's great.  You're still not going to get picked up by most teams who are "looking for a Tank."

 

I play Tanks because I want to be the toughest sumbitch on the team.  I want to be the mountain which weathers the fury of the storm without flinching.  But I also want the team to know that I am the toughest sumbitch there.  To know that the safest place in the world is behind me.  To know that I will not yield, because I am a mountain, and mountains do not yield.  Because I don't worship at the altar of Big Orange Numbers.  I worship at the altar of This May Get Crazy, But We've Got This. 

[DR_Mechano]

2 hours ago, quietkane said:

I agree with the main sentiment of the responses in this thread, but I think there's a critical element no one here has really touched on, yet.

 

City of Heroes is a social game.  The reason many of us still love this game 15 years later is because it has fostered a particular community.  And a community has certain assumptions and expectations.  A full quarter of Defenders are Empathy/X, even though Empathy is not optimal for a majority of content or a majority of teams, and it's not because other Defenders can't do the same job that Empaths do.

 

If you're a Brute with ridiculous IOs that cap your resists and allow you to live at, I dunno, 20% defense across the board, that's great.  You're still not going to get picked up by most teams who are "looking for a Tank."

 

I play Tanks because I want to be the toughest sumbitch on the team.  I want to be the mountain which weathers the fury of the storm without flinching.  But I also want the team to know that I am the toughest sumbitch there.  To know that the safest place in the world is behind me.  To know that I will not yield, because I am a mountain, and mountains do not yield.  Because I don't worship at the altar of Big Orange Numbers.  I worship at the altar of This May Get Crazy, But We've Got This. 

The problem is how often do you see people specifically look for a 'Tanker' when tanking, most are looking for 'tank' which is different, They'll usually takes whichever comes first, Brute or Tanker. In fact Brutes have one thing they can tank which Tankers can't, Hamidon since Brutes get the regen set (which is like the ONLY advantage to Regen these days, that set needs some serious buffs).

[siolfir]

3 hours ago, quietkane said:

I agree with the main sentiment of the responses in this thread, but I think there's a critical element no one here has really touched on, yet.

 

City of Heroes is a social game.  The reason many of us still love this game 15 years later is because it has fostered a particular community.  And a community has certain assumptions and expectations.  A full quarter of Defenders are Empathy/X, even though Empathy is not optimal for a majority of content or a majority of teams, and it's not because other Defenders can't do the same job that Empaths do.

 

If you're a Brute with ridiculous IOs that cap your resists and allow you to live at, I dunno, 20% defense across the board, that's great.  You're still not going to get picked up by most teams who are "looking for a Tank."

 

I play Tanks because I want to be the toughest sumbitch on the team.  I want to be the mountain which weathers the fury of the storm without flinching.  But I also want the team to know that I am the toughest sumbitch there.  To know that the safest place in the world is behind me.  To know that I will not yield, because I am a mountain, and mountains do not yield.  Because I don't worship at the altar of Big Orange Numbers.  I worship at the altar of This May Get Crazy, But We've Got This. 

 

52 minutes ago, DR_Mechano said:

The problem is how often do you see people specifically look for a 'Tanker' when tanking, most are looking for 'tank' which is different, They'll usually takes whichever comes first, Brute or Tanker. In fact Brutes have one thing they can tank which Tankers can't, Hamidon since Brutes get the regen set (which is like the ONLY advantage to Regen these days, that set needs some serious buffs).

I've joined teams on my Rad/Elec Brute who has 25-35% defense to everything, resistances of 82-90% for S/L/F/C/E, 48% N, 56% Psi who kept asking saying that they "needed a Tank", meaning Tanker. So there are groups out there that think this way.

 

I just let them get the Tanker, who was in their upper 20s and didn't have any set bonuses listed (vs my IO'd 50), so I ran ahead of said Tanker, and grouped everything around me for when they caught up. When the Tanker told me to stop because "I'm the tank and I need to be first", I did. And when he died taking the alpha two spawns later, I went back to running in first and letting him pull what aggro off of me that he could. Oddly enough, he didn't say anything about it after that.

[TheOtherTed]

10 hours ago, ParaBruce said:

@TheOtherTed, you are my hero of the day.

 

Hey, I'm just glad I'm not the only one who remembers...

[Murcielago]

No AT is needed but Scrappers NEED Super Strength

[MunkiLord]

16 minutes ago, Murcielago said:

No AT is needed but Scrappers NEED Super Strength

THIS

 

And Stone Melee

[ParagonKid]

People will play what they want to.

But personally, I sidelined my Tanker when it was barely soloing pylons while my Brute was soloing GMs. The power difference only became wider as the Incarnate system progressed.

[Zepp]

According to the Flavor of the Month: Level 50 thread, the number of level 50 archetypes of each type is:

1. Brute 16,168
2. Controller 6,768
3. Blaster 6,350
4. Scrapper 5,012
5. Tanker 4,767
6. Defender 4,164
7. Corrupter 3,930
8. Mastermind 3,284
9. Sentinel 2,620
10. Dominator 2,408
11. Stalker 2,389

There have been a lot of threads about poor l'il tankers, ranked number five, but there are half a dozen ATs that need more love than they do. Granted, Sentinels are probably low because they are non-nostalgic, and Stalkers are low because there are actually more but they are hiding. But basically, the real problem is not that there are not enough tankers, its just that way too many people want to play Brutes at the moment...

 

[Murcielago]

12 hours ago, MunkiLord said:

THIS

 

And Stone Melee

ALL THE MELEES

[Murcielago]

6 hours ago, Zepp said:

According to the Flavor of the Month: Level 50 thread, the number of level 50 archetypes of each type is:

1. Brute 16,168
2. Controller 6,768
3. Blaster 6,350
4. Scrapper 5,012
5. Tanker 4,767
6. Defender 4,164
7. Corrupter 3,930
8. Mastermind 3,284
9. Sentinel 2,620
10. Dominator 2,408
11. Stalker 2,389

There have been a lot of threads about poor l'il tankers, ranked number five, but there are half a dozen ATs that need more love than they do. Granted, Sentinels are probably low because they are non-nostalgic, and Stalkers are low because there are actually more but they are hiding. But basically, the real problem is not that there are not enough tankers, its just that way too many people want to play Brutes at the moment...

 

So what you're saying is nerf brutes?

[SlyGuyMcFly]

Interesting numbers, those. It definitely looks like Brutes are a little over-tuned* at the moment, but I believe a large part is to do with the huge numbers of spine/fire Brutes farming AE. The same thread shows over 6k Spines/ and almost 10k /Fire. Ignore those for a sec and you're  still looking at... 9 to 10k "normal play" Brutes, maybe? Still much more played that the other ATs, no doubt, but not to such an absurd degree.

 

I reckon it's mostly that they sit bang in the middle of the sweet spot between tankiness and damage and also in a really nice sweet spot for single-target vs AoE damage. So they kinda push the other melee types out simply by existing. Of course, the Fury mechanic also plays a big part in their popularity. It's easy to use in an optimal fashion (unlike Stalker crit), reliable (unlike Scrapper crit), and makes BIG NUMBERS (unlike Bruising). Especially in the early game, Brutes throw down some really big numbers compared to other melees and while this evens out as you get closer to 50 and slot powers up, initial impressions count for a lot.

 

Now, to what degree this is a legit problem for the game and playerbase? Is it something that the devs should be looking into and thinking about how to correct? I honestly couldn't say.

 

 

*Not necessarily in the strict numerical sense, but almost definitely in the player base's perception.

[DR_Mechano]

Yeah a good chunk of brutes are the /fire farming characters so we can at least discount a decent chunk of them as people, like me, made them purely for farming and market purposes without much intentional play outside of that. What impresses me more is that controllers are far up on that list. I agree with SlyGuyMcFly, Brutes sit in that middle sweetspot. They're easy to use, reliable, they can take a hit but also deal out damage.

 

Tankers are reliable and safe but deal piss poor damage, scrappers aren't as tough as Brutes can be, meaning you can't just W straight into mob backs as readily, stalkers take a bit of getting use to and don't really shine until you get both ATO uniques in them turning them from hard hitting bursty damage to hard hitting sustained damage.

[Lines]

23 minutes ago, DR_Mechano said:

Yeah a good chunk of brutes are the /fire farming characters so we can at least discount a decent chunk of them as people, like me, made them purely for farming and market purposes without much intentional play outside of that. What impresses me more is that controllers are far up on that list. I agree with SlyGuyMcFly, Brutes sit in that middle sweetspot. They're easy to use, reliable, they can take a hit but also deal out damage.

By the same token, the old farming popularity of Fire/Kin trollers toons might explain that.

[Rathulfr]

13 hours ago, MunkiLord said:

THIS

 

And Stone Melee

And Energy Melee

[Without_Pause]

8 hours ago, Zepp said:

According to the Flavor of the Month: Level 50 thread, the number of level 50 archetypes of each type is:

1. Brute 16,168
2. Controller 6,768
3. Blaster 6,350
4. Scrapper 5,012
5. Tanker 4,767
6. Defender 4,164
7. Corrupter 3,930
8. Mastermind 3,284
9. Sentinel 2,620
10. Dominator 2,408
11. Stalker 2,389

 

To be fair, one might want to factor in /fire brutes. The top 3 builds for brutes are known farmers and make up for roughly half of brutes. #4 is Elec/sd which again can farm. #5 and #6 are again /fire brutes. Factor in a team might only "need" one tank, but can benefit from multiple defenders and defenders still have lower numbers.

[Zepp]

I was not suggesting nerfing Brutes (although I have referenced reducing their resistance cap by 5% as a possible way to improve differentiation between them and tankers), I was just looking at the 6k+ Spines/Fire Brutes and the 1.7k+ Fire/Kin Trollers, and it seems that farming is a big motivator for putting those two at the top.

That being said, my point was that Tankers are in the top half of the rankings, far from unpopular...

[Heraclea]

10 hours ago, Zepp said:

According to the Flavor of the Month: Level 50 thread, the number of level 50 archetypes of each type is:

1. Brute 16,168
2. Controller 6,768
3. Blaster 6,350
4. Scrapper 5,012
5. Tanker 4,767
6. Defender 4,164
7. Corrupter 3,930
8. Mastermind 3,284
9. Sentinel 2,620
10. Dominator 2,408
11. Stalker 2,389

There have been a lot of threads about poor l'il tankers, ranked number five, but there are half a dozen ATs that need more love than they do. Granted, Sentinels are probably low because they are non-nostalgic, and Stalkers are low because there are actually more but they are hiding. But basically, the real problem is not that there are not enough tankers, its just that way too many people want to play Brutes at the moment...

 

It wasn't until last week that I got a brute to 50; two tankers were 1 and 3 for me.  I do have a controller at 50, a recreation of one of my characters from the old game, but I find the AT fussy and difficult to play.  Most of the newer content seems to favor or require them.  Other than brute, all of the old redside ATs are well behind.

 

Surprised to see MMs so low, since it seems to me there's at least one on every team any more.  My highest here is 12.  I don't enjoy the AT; too many things to keep track of. 

[Jon]

Give me Corruptors or give me death. All other ATs are just for flavor. 😉

11 hours ago, Zepp said:

According to the Flavor of the Month: Level 50 thread, the number of level 50 archetypes of each type is:

1. Brute 16,168
2. Controller 6,768
3. Blaster 6,350
4. Scrapper 5,012
5. Tanker 4,767
6. Defender 4,164
7. Corrupter 3,930
8. Mastermind 3,284
9. Sentinel 2,620
10. Dominator 2,408
11. Stalker 2,389

There have been a lot of threads about poor l'il tankers, ranked number five, but there are half a dozen ATs that need more love than they do. Granted, Sentinels are probably low because they are non-nostalgic, and Stalkers are low because there are actually more but they are hiding. But basically, the real problem is not that there are not enough tankers, its just that way too many people want to play Brutes at the moment...

 

Not sure if I'd say the less-popular ATs need love just because of low player numbers - Stalkers, for example, probably don't need a buff because they've already received one, but the AT still suffers from stigmatization due to poor performance from a time that has long since passed. Tankers have underperformed for a while but used to be a fan favorite AT, so I'd call the changes absolutely necessary.

Sentinels not being loved is definitely a side-effect of them not having existed before Homecoming, for sure.

Edited September 16, 2019 by Jon