are tankers still needed?

[Murcielago]

11 hours ago, Zepp said:

According to the Flavor of the Month: Level 50 thread, the number of level 50 archetypes of each type is:

1. Brute 16,168
2. Controller 6,768
3. Blaster 6,350
4. Scrapper 5,012
5. Tanker 4,767
6. Defender 4,164
7. Corrupter 3,930
8. Mastermind 3,284
9. Sentinel 2,620
10. Dominator 2,408
11. Stalker 2,389

There have been a lot of threads about poor l'il tankers, ranked number five, but there are half a dozen ATs that need more love than they do. Granted, Sentinels are probably low because they are non-nostalgic, and Stalkers are low because there are actually more but they are hiding. But basically, the real problem is not that there are not enough tankers, its just that way too many people want to play Brutes at the moment...

 

Also what this tells me is Sentinels need some buffing. I'm playing one and it a few steps away from anemic. The trade off with Blaster's damage is mitigation but man it feels like a huge difference. 

[Abraxus]

2 hours ago, Murcielago said:

Also what this tells me is Sentinels need some buffing. I'm playing one and it a few steps away from anemic. The trade off with Blaster's damage is mitigation but man it feels like a huge difference. 

Yeah, that was my feeling too.  I got one up to 30, and decided to re-roll for a pure blaster version of the same toon.  I had more fun with the Blaster version, but you're mileage may vary.  😎

[PaxArcana]

3 hours ago, Jon said:

Sentinels not being loved is definitely a side-effect of them not having existed before Homecoming, for sure.

And also, their Inherent is kind of "meh"; I hate having to wait, and not attack at all for a couple seconds, because Opportunity pops up when the appropriate power is on recharge.

 

It shouldn't be tied to the T1 and T2 attacks of the primary, Sentinels should have two additional clickies, that only become accessible/useable when the Opportunity Bar is full.  One for offense, one for defense.

[DR_Mechano]

Sentinels could definitely do with a buff, the reduced range and AoE caps really hurts sentinels along with their incredibly lackluster inherent. Personally I'd see the range and AoE cap reductions removed. They're already doing lower damage than a blaster it made no sense to do that too them as well.

[Bill Z Bubba]

Funny how we all see things through different lenses. I got a fire/nin sent to 50, fully IOed up, think T2 on alpha, and all I can think about her is "tankmage."

"Needing a buff" makes me do the doggy head tilt thing in confusion.

 

Agreed on the inherent bit, thought, it kinda sucks and I just ignore it.

Edited September 16, 2019 by Bill Z Bubba

[MunkiLord]

20 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Funny how we all see things through different lenses. I got a fire/nin sent to 50, fully IOed up, think T2 on alpha, and all I can think about her is "tankmage."

"Needing a buff" makes me do the doggy head tilt thing in confusion.

 

Agreed on the inherent bit, thought, it kinda sucks and I just ignore it.

A Sent also did the solo Liberty Task Force, so there is clearly potential. I haven't played one myself, but what I gather from various comments is Sentinel performance has an extremely wide range. 

[DR_Mechano]

Beam Rifle/Bio is considered the outlier for sentinels and is, apparently the winners pick but then you get something like AR/Invuln which felt like a complete dogs dinner to me, the reduce cone sizes and AoE caps on AR for sentinel made it feel piss weak.

[Murcielago]

1 hour ago, DR_Mechano said:

Beam Rifle/Bio is considered the outlier for sentinels and is, apparently the winners pick but then you get something like AR/Invuln which felt like a complete dogs dinner to me, the reduce cone sizes and AoE caps on AR for sentinel made it feel piss weak.

Anything Bio is an outlier on almost any AT e.g. TW/Bio scrappers are monsters.

[MTeague]

On 9/15/2019 at 8:08 AM, boggo2300 said:

Are Brutes still needed? Scrappers? Stalkers? Corrupters? Dominators? Controllers? Defenders? Blasters? Masterminds? Epics?

 

No none of them are

 

All of my most fun teams, TF's and Raids have however included a good tank, every single one of them...

I can't say my most fun team ever included a tank.... but that's because it was an All Defender Task Force (1 Storm, 1 Rad, 1 Dark, 2 Empaths, 1 Trick Arrow, 1 Sonic, 1 FF) flexing our Defendy muscles and showing the awesome power of Defender pewpewpew.  

 

OUTSIDE of such highly specialized cases though, yes, I love having an actual Tank on the team. 

 

[Jeuraud]

19 hours ago, Zepp said:

But basically, the real problem is not that there are not enough tankers, its just that way too many people want to play Brutes at the moment...

For me, it's because the Brute is what the CoH Tank should have been, a Heavy Hitter that can take the damage, and is easy to play. Point me out a Sup Tank that cannot deal the damage as well as take it, I cant think of any. Hells, in the first Avenger movie, Hulk sucker punching Thor off the screen and body slamming Loki where hilarious, and the punch he did to that what-ever-you-want-to-call-it is memorable. Hulks ability to take damage just allows for these events.

 

As for this pathological need to be needed by many Tank players... no the CoH Tank AT is not needed, because as has been pointed out numerous times, no specific AT is needed in CoH. CoH broke the trinity right from the get-go, with its Buffs/Debuffs and Holds.

If you want to bring a Tank AT, bring it; if someone objects to having too many Tank ATs then drop the group and find/build another group, but note that nobody who knows CoH is going to bow down and kiss the dirt or say hallelujah, just because a Tank AT has joined the group.

[Ekimmak]

Not to be an argumentitive sort, but I feel like Brute is the worst of both worlds, rather than "a superior pick to tanker".

 

The reduced survivability is VERY noticeable in solo content for me, and the fact that their damage is a ramp up instead of a flat line makes that worse. I don't see the survival as much better than a scrapper, but a scrapper kills things quick enough to not care that they're in melee and taking full damage.

 

Maybe it's just the powers I picked, maybe I'm just judging on the early levels, but I feel like brutes are the weaker of the two "tank" archetypes.

[ironjoe]

On 9/14/2019 at 2:37 AM, cparks7040 said:

i dont understand why they have 3 taunts, 1 in attacks, the gauntlet power, and the activated power. im just finding it hard to see how tankers are of any use.

That is because you, like many mistake the tank archetype for the tank role. It's easy to make that mistake considering they both use the same name. In gaming the tank role is simple. You are the meat shield that take the hits so others don't. The tank archetype does well at this but they take it a step forward. The tank archetype is not only able to perform the traditional tank role but they are also a melee controller through the use of agro management. The multiple methods of generating agro allow the tank to focus melee, ranged, and aoe attacks in a direction. It also allows them to manipulate the enemies by drawing them closer. This can act as a damage multiplier when done properly to draw everything into a tight group that makes the most of aoe, pbaoe, and cone attacks.  So if the tank is just taking the hits, then they are only doing what many other archetypes could do. If they are actively managing the battle field then they are doing what the archetype allows them to do and helping the team. 

Edited September 18, 2019 by ironjoe
typos

[jubakumbi]

51 minutes ago, ironjoe said:

That is because you, like many mistake the tank archetype for the tank role. It's easy to make that mistake considering they both use the same name. In gaming the tank role is simple. You are the meat shield that take the hits so others don't. The tank archetype does well at this but they take it a step forward. The tank archetype is not only able to perform the traditional tank role but they are also a melee controller through the use of agro management. The multiple methods of generating agro allow the tank to focus melee, ranged, and aoe attacks in a direction. It also allows them to manipulate the enemies by drawing them closer. This can act as a damage multiplier when done properly to draw everything into a tight group that makes the most of aoe, pbaoe, and cone attacks.  So if the tank is just taking the hits, then they are only doing what many other archetypes could do. If they are actively managing the battle field then they are doing what the archetype allows them to do and helping the team. 

Bingo.

Tanks are Melee Range Controllers in CoH IMO.

Instead of holds, they have resiliance.

IMO, much of the community sees a Melee AT and expects Hulk level damage out of it, without really seeing what the AT is supposed to be doing.

 

On the flip side, if people make super teams, the Tank AT really shines, because all the other participants can eshew thier personal defences more easily, since they are not all being built to solo and just happen to find a team with a Tank.

 

Personally, in all my years of Tanking in CoH with one of my favorite creations, I have never entered a team and gotten anything like 'ugh, a Tank', the opposite usually occurs.

 

The Tank role is always needed, I assume the role on all characters regardless of AT, because IME, most players on most teams are terrified to 'go first'.

 

[Marine X]

2 hours ago, ironjoe said:

That is because you, like many mistake the tank archetype for the tank role. It's easy to make that mistake considering they both use the same name. In gaming the tank role is simple. You are the meat shield that take the hits so others don't. The tank archetype does well at this but they take it a step forward. The tank archetype is not only able to perform the traditional tank role but they are also a melee controller through the use of agro management. The multiple methods of generating agro allow the tank to focus melee, ranged, and aoe attacks in a direction. It also allows them to manipulate the enemies by drawing them closer. This can act as a damage multiplier when done properly to draw everything into a tight group that makes the most of aoe, pbaoe, and cone attacks.  So if the tank is just taking the hits, then they are only doing what many other archetypes could do. If they are actively managing the battle field then they are doing what the archetype allows them to do and helping the team. 

Best Explanation I have seen recently for what a COH Tankers Role actually is, and that's the Job I want when I Tank. I don't want to be a big DPS Machine, I want the team to be safe while dealing with the Mission. I guess maybe that fact has gotten lost somehow.

[MrAxe]

I just came off a team that could turn the difficulty up because 'we have a real Tank now'. Not needed per se but very, very useful. I'd say that's good enough.

[MunkiLord]

1 hour ago, jubakumbi said:

The Tank role is always needed, I assume the role on all characters regardless of AT, because IME, most players on most teams are terrified to 'go first'.

 

I've even ran into this a few times on the BAF trial. When it's time to get one of the AVs people just sat there for like ten seconds, nobody moving or saying anything, so I did it with my Blaster or Dom. One of the times we had one Tank that was new to the trial and no Brutes, so I understood. The other time we had multiple of each, so it seemed odd to me. I died each time lol. But the second time it was right after a successful pull, so it worked out. 

[jubakumbi]

1 hour ago, MunkiLord said:

I've even ran into this a few times on the BAF trial. When it's time to get one of the AVs people just sat there for like ten seconds, nobody moving or saying anything, so I did it with my Blaster or Dom. One of the times we had one Tank that was new to the trial and no Brutes, so I understood. The other time we had multiple of each, so it seemed odd to me. I died each time lol. But the second time it was right after a successful pull, so it worked out. 

I have to get my debt badges somehow!

Since the penalty for falling down in this game is virtually non-existant, I have never understood why people have so much angst over it.

I laugh at it, I laugh at full team wipes, yet I see others 'lose thier minds' over these things...

 

Eat the purples, jump in the middle, fire off everything you have and hope for the best...is that not how to play now? 🙂

 

[SmalltalkJava]

Probably not technically needed.   But damn I’m happy when one is on the team. A good one just makes the ride that much more smooth.

[ScarRee]

Not needed, but can be the ideal choice for certain top tier bosses.

[EmmySky]

5 hours ago, jubakumbi said:

I have to get my debt badges somehow!

Since the penalty for falling down in this game is virtually non-existant, I have never understood why people have so much angst over it.

I laugh at it, I laugh at full team wipes, yet I see others 'lose thier minds' over these things...

 

Eat the purples, jump in the middle, fire off everything you have and hope for the best...is that not how to play now? 🙂

 

I am renaming you Leroy.

[Leogunner]

4 hours ago, SmalltalkJava said:

Probably not technically needed.   But damn I’m happy when one is on the team. A good one just makes the ride that much more smooth.

Your mileage may vary.

 

Of all the ATs, I have encountered the most primadonnas playing Tankers and that's saying a lot when there's usually not multiple Tankers on a team but often multiple blasters, defenders, brutes, etc.

 

Just yesterday, there was a Tanker who insisted on herding, calling where he/she was herding to, when to start attacking and such.  As a Stalker, I don't have to give a **** at all and was just kinda chuckling to myself.  He/she also insisted on pushing the difficulty up and holding team spots for a defender or controller specifically.  When he/she finally logged, I said one little grain of truth: "Well, he was rather overbearing..." and that released the flood gates of everyone complaining and making jokes at their expense.

 

lol I'm not one to talk about people behind their backs (I'll say it to your face though) but I have to admit, it was a nice reminder of what I won't do as a Tanker.  That crap is too slow...or at least he/she was executing it in an aggravatingly slow manner. 

[MunkiLord]

I don't use notes or stars often, but people like that immediately get one star and I note why. Then I don't team with then again. 

 

Also if I'm team leader they get kicked after the second time, whether or not I gave them a warning.

Edited September 18, 2019 by MunkiLord

[subbacultchas]

If I joined a team and the tank is the leader, I might do that. I wouldn't stick around for long though.

However if a tanker joined my team and did that, we'd be moving forward sans tanker. Ain't nobody got time for that, and this is not longer the "follow the tanker" game it used to be.

[MunkiLord]

You're a more patient person than me. Soon as I realize that's the plan, I'm out. Missions, farms, Task Force, I'm out. 

[jshmoe1236123]

56 minutes ago, MunkiLord said:

You're a more patient person than me. Soon as I realize that's the plan, I'm out. Missions, farms, Task Force, I'm out. 

Leaving the team is a missed opportunity to create chaos. At that point, it's to find out what will it take to get me kicked.