How would you buff Sentinels?

[Myrmidon]

On 9/19/2019 at 8:23 PM, Gorgar said:

Now I'm hoping for, some day, an arcane defense set, because my armored ranged attacker would be more along the lines of Dr Fate.

 

Just to give you an idea, I went with a Kinetic Melee/Willpower Brute for my sorcerer concept (inspiration loosely based off of Dr. Fate). KM looks like Spellcasting and Willpower grants durability and mystical recovery. Add in Sorcery (plus a few other options that make the concept work) and it fits much better than a Sentinel does.

[Myrmidon]

One of my 50s is a Water/Willpower Sentinel and it is one of my favorite characters. That unpredictable inherent really doesn’t affect my enjoyment of the character, however, I wouldn’t turn my nose up to an adjustment or two.

[Erratic1]

If I were going to make the AT live up to its name, I would not be looking to trample the domain of others but rather build something unique for the AT. Corruptors and Defenders cover the -Res concept perfectly fine before we get to other ATs which dabble in that realm.

 

Something along the line of gaining extra damage and/or aggro (or conversely, lowering the target's aggro at its current target) when what is hit by the sentinel seems appropriate.

[BrandX]

On 9/17/2019 at 6:57 PM, Force Redux said:

Let the Opportunity Bar build. When its full, the sentinel can use it to create a buff that lasts for x seconds. Kind of like Domination for dominators. It should not be affected by global recharge. Perhaps 30 second buff with 90 second downtime. So up 1/3 of the time if there is active building. 

 

The Opportunity Bar should be ability-agnostic, that means any primary set attack builds it, and its use is not tied to the T1 or T2 attacks. 

 

The buff should be group wide (so to enhance their appeal in groups) and will scale with the number of group members (up to 8). Everyone affected (perhaps up to 48 targets, so a raid) gains the following:

 

Exactly what the buff should do (boosts to damage, end reduction, heal procs, etc, I leave to others. But it should to at least one offensive thing and at least one defensive thing). 

Yes!

 

As for what I'd like for Sentinels...

 

Improve the tier 1 or 2, so they're both equal in use.  Could be different in how they do it, but I always hate that I may have to use an inferior attack, if it has the better animation. 😞

 

For sure don't care for seeing the Passive tied to tier 1 or 2 choice.

[Zepp]

One of the more clever ideas I've seen in this thread is allowing Sentinels to "mark" enemy groups so you get the red triangles on the map. It would make clear missions much easier and make scouting actually meaningful...
 

The other thing I've heard often is taking the link away from their T1 and T2 powers. Seeing as opportunity is underwhelming overall, putting both effects together and linking it to all single target attacks would make it more useful with less work.

 

Finally, I have heard a lot of resistance against -res or -def being put in their attacks, or a +ToHit, +Dmg Aura. I tend to agree with this. perspective. Also, abilities related to aggro management do not seem to be a good idea. However, if they had an aggro-reduction aura (toons that attack while within 30' of the Sentinel have a 10-20% reduction in threat modifier) might be tenable.

 

That said, I'm sure there are still some creative ideas out there. I'm just hoping we do not end up with a click or a stance toggle.

[Galaxy Brain]

I think a lot of the issue lies with how cumbersome it is to mark targets with opportunity, and is then compounded by needing specific powers + having 2 versions that are mutually exclusive to one another once you are able to make a mark.

 

Currently the inherit is split into 3 parts:

1. Every attack you land places a -5% Resist / -2.5% Defense debuff that can stack from different Sentinels
   1. (Groovy)
2. You have an Opportunity Meter that builds up while in combat, with some variables that determine how fast it builds. Once full / near full, you can activate either Offensive Opportunity -or- Defensive Opportunity depending on if you both select, and hit, either your T1 or T2 blast respectively. Once your target is successfully hit by either power, they are visibly marked by a large Cross-hair and sustain a hefty -20% resistance debuff for some time.
   1. (Clunky, but the marked effect is nice)
3. As mentioned, you can activate either Offensive -or- Defensive Opportunity once the bar is full by successfully hitting either your T1 or your T2 blast respectively. Offensive grants you a bonus Damage proc of some sort on all successful attacks for a time, while Defensive grants a Heal and Endurance proc on all successful attacks.
   1. (This is just confusing as it not only sort of makes players take both the T1 and T2 attacks to get the best value, but then the separate effects are not reliable as they are attached to powers that can miss or not be recharged in the crucial moment where you may want to use a specific version!)

 

Having a basic debuff per hit is nice, as is the ability to single out a target for a much stronger debuff and/or added effects. If possible, I would rather see this: 

 

1. All sentinel attacks apply a -5% res / -2.5% def debuff on successful hits. Applications from AoE attacks can stack from multiple Sentinels, while the same Sentinel can stack the effect up to (3?) times with Single Target attacks.
2. Your Opportunity bar fills up from Single Target attacks on the same target. After (2?) hits in a row, the bar will be full and the next Single Target attack will Mark the target. Marks last for (30 sec?) and can be refreshed on the same target though they cannot stack from the same Sentinel. You can have multiple Marks on multiple targets however as your Opportunity bar resets upon Marking a target.
3. On top of the stacked (15%/7.5% ?) debuffs on the marked target, anyone who attacks the target will enjoy a small damage, health and endurance proc as they take down the targets the Sentinel singled out!
   1. The procs could be something like 2.5% of Damage dealt / 2.5% of Max HP/End
   2. AoE attacks would have the procs divided by the number of targets hit to avoid massive heals / endurance returns
4. AIM could be used to make the opportunity bar permanently full for 10 seconds to allow the Sentinel to go nuts marking targets,

 

This change would retain the spirit of the inherit with how you wear down targets to make it easier for yourself and your team to take 'em down, while also making the method to mark targets much more intuitive and free-form with the 1-2-3 format that sets with combo mechanics generally use. We could even keep the rings around all ST attacks in the set when you are ready to mark a target as a queue. Needing to select a target for 3 hits in a row, or have a very brief window via a power-up to apply marks also keeps it from being too potent, though the 15% vs 25% resist debuffs would be a step down for balance. The bigger part here is the Opportunity procs that occur if you hit marked targets. I wrote it as anyone could benefit from these, but if its more feasible these could still just be on the Sentinel to enjoy.

 

Thoughts?

[Steampunkette]

It's not gonna happen.

 

The whole Opportunity Mechanic is going to be removed in the major rework.

[Zepp]

I don't think the complete removal of Opportunity has been confirmed. Do you have a link for that assertion?

[Replacement]

I do I do!

 

 

(page 3 of this thread)

Edited October 2, 2019 by Replacement
fat-fingered the page number

[Steampunkette]

7 minutes ago, Zepp said:

I don't think the complete removal of Opportunity has been confirmed. Do you have a link for that assertion?

Right here:

On 9/19/2019 at 2:08 PM, Captain Powerhouse said:

I have not had a chance to go through this entire thread but I saw the subject and wanted to drop a quick comment:

 

The AT will go through what may be considered a drastic revamp, I do have my hands full right now so it wont happen soon.

 

Things I can say at this time: the entire inherent will be scrapped. The original goal was the sentinel would do lower than scrapper damage half the time, and half the time inside offensive opportunity they would do DPS much higher than scrapper, averaging to 50/50 bit below scrapper damage.

 

Once the inherent is scrapped, the AT damage scale will go up to be comparable (not equal) to scrappers. The AT will get a new inherent that wont be as required to sustain dps, if at all. My current goal is for the AT to do a bit of honor to it's name and become a bit of a spotter/lookout, via inherent mechanics.

 

Things that wont happen (again sorry if I misread) are target cap increases or any addition of taunting capabilities. The goal of the AT is to be akin to a ranged scrapper, not an armored blaster, much less an off-tank.

Page 3 of this thread.

[aethereal]

My interpretation of what Captain Powerhouse means is "I'm not going to tweak the mechanic to have, for example, more uptime," and also "I don't like feast-or-famine as a theme."  Not necessarily, "the new inherent will share nothing in common with the old inherent."  The impression that I get is that plans for the Sentinel rework are at a very early stage.  I don't know how much CP is interested in feedback from people in this thread, but I read CP as saying in this thread

 

Fairly hard statements:

 

1.  No taunting

2.  No increase in AoE caps

3.  Inherent will be completely reworked:

   a.  Will not need to click green or red circles to sustain DPS

   b.  Will not have a feast-or-famine theme

 

Fairly soft statements:

 

1.  Would like the sentinel to be a spotter/lookout

2.  Might give -def or +to-hit or +perception to allies

 

But who knows.

[Zepp]

3 hours ago, Steampunkette said:

Right here:

Page 3 of this thread.

That was the post I thought you may have been referring to.

3 hours ago, aethereal said:

My interpretation of what Captain Powerhouse means is "I'm not going to tweak the mechanic to have, for example, more uptime," and also "I don't like feast-or-famine as a theme."  Not necessarily, "the new inherent will share nothing in common with the old inherent." 

I had a similar impression, which is why I considered proposals that were associated with recycling the scrap as feasible proposals. That being said, this reading also seems to exclude the idea of stancing (thank whichever deity you please), whereas merging the two aspects of Opportunity and unbinding it from a specific tier of power is actually fairly reasonable.

[Steampunkette]

Entirely scrapped. Not revamped. Not merged. Scrapped.

 

E's not feasible, E's passed on! This inherent is no more! He has ceased to be! 'E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker! 'E's a stiff! Bereft of life, he rests in peace, 'Is metabolic processes are now 'istory! 'E's off the twig! 'E's kicked the bucket, 'e's shuffled off 'is mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin' choir invisible!! THIS IS AN EX-INHERENT!!

 

 

[Tsuko]

What bugs me is that the only one sentinel build able to cap defenses i found was a /EA with epic Minds links.

 

Imo, atm Sentinels are the less interesting toon to massively invest into.

[aethereal]

35 minutes ago, Tsuko said:

What bugs me is that the only one sentinel build able to cap defenses i found was a /EA with epic Minds links.

 

Imo, atm Sentinels are the less interesting toon to massively invest into.

I softcapped my arch/nin sent in all positionals without mindlink or incarnates.

[Zepp]

12 hours ago, Tsuko said:

What bugs me is that the only one sentinel build able to cap defenses i found was a /EA with epic Minds links.

 

Imo, atm Sentinels are the less interesting toon to massively invest into.

Ninja and Super Reflexes are easily cappable... That being said, the base numbers are 6.67% lower than Scrapper numbers... this does make them significantly less appealing to minmaxers... That being said, they have much better regen (in some sets)...

Edited October 2, 2019 by Zepp

[Tsuko]

20 minutes ago, Zepp said:

Ninja and Super Reflexes are easily cappable... That being said, the base numbers are 6.67% lower than Scrapper numbers... this does make them significantly less appealing to minmaxers... That being said, they have much better regen...

10 hours ago, aethereal said:

I softcapped my arch/nin sent in all positionals without mindlink or incarnates.

Nice to read, Players always find ways to enjoy their AT in Coh.

 

But i only play toon with optimal no limit builds : and for the 2 lvl 50 sentinels i have : i always find that with the very same IOs (ATO / purple / event) i could have better result on any other AT.

 

The only good side i found is that Sentinels dont need a total investment to be fine.

 

Sentinels should be the best AT to play for a total beginner with no infamy (with no farm motivation)

 

 

[Zepp]

13 minutes ago, Tsuko said:

Sentinels should be the best AT to play for a total beginner with no infamy (with no farm motivation)

Why?

[Murcielago]

9 hours ago, Zepp said:

Why?

They OK damage, mes resistance, and damage mitigation from day one. When Sentinels get buffed I anticipate them to be much more popular than they are. They're a very easy AT to play, even easier than Blasters.

[Zepp]

Sorry, I think I read that as imperative when it was supposed to be probabilistic.

[TheAdjustor]

12 hours ago, Murcielago said:

They OK damage, mes resistance, and damage mitigation from day one. When Sentinels get buffed I anticipate them to be much more popular than they are. They're a very easy AT to play, even easier than Blasters.

Out of all the damage by damage alone classes  blasters probably have the worst reward/risk ratio of them (Stalker, Scrapper, Brute, Tank, sentinel, Blaster), not going to be hard for them to outdo blasters.

 

*IIRC best sentinel DPS (reported) is around 400 vs blaster 500 ?

Edited October 2, 2019 by TheAdjustor

[drbuzzard]

Ok, I've given this a good bit of thought. I have a bunch of sentinels at 50, and recently took a blaster up for the sake of contrast.

 

Right now the sentinel is a bit lacking, not seriously gimpy or anything, but a bit lacking as it amount to being the lowest DPS of the DPS classes. It really does need a bit of help. Mind you I still enjoy playing them, as they fill a superhero niche which needed to be filled, but I think the general consensus says they need help.

 

However how do we do this? Right now the sentinel has the opportunity inherent which serves to given minor buffs (depending on version used), a single target resistance debuff of fair value (20%) and every attack applies a -5% resistance debuff as well (not sure how this stacks). Even with these abilities their damage lags well behind a blaster (or scrapper, or stalker, or brute, though worse for a blaster).

 

OK, first off just about everyone recognizes that the inherent is lacking. It pegs you into taking the first two powers, even if one of them is sub par (to be able to full exercise the inherent power), and the effect while apparently according to Captain Powerhouse was meant to give feast or famine damage output, merely takes you out of famine and only against one target. This means you have the DPS class with the 2nd worst defenses doing the least damage (though this is not precise as the armor sets are different on sentinels than elsewhere, but the .7 modifier is what I'm basing this on).

 

So what do we do? I've seen CP mention that he'd like to see Sentinels doing scrapper level damage. Now I suppose you could do that by taking the damage scalar to 1.0 and giving them crits, but that would just seem to be copycatting (as it is used on both stalkers and scrappers). You could have a damage buff built up by attacking, but that is also currently in use by brutes and blasters. I'd say we need something different. Right now the Sentinel provides utility to a team via their debuffs in addition to their DPS (which is a bit sub par now). How about instead of copying a current solution from DPS classes, we go a different way. Go all in on resistance debuff for the class and simplify opportunity to just a 10% resistance debuff in all attacks which stacks up to, say, 50% (done by debuff expiration, rather than a stacking cap so multiple sentinels will stack together rather than not adding). While this sounds like a lot, it's a rare team fighting even level opponents and the purple patch cuts into debuffs pretty severely. I'd say also make the damage scalar 1.0.

This will give a completely different feel to the class as it probes for weaknesses on enemies and the whole team can then exploit them. It also would give a different feel in that all fights will have them scaling up gradually in effectiveness no matter if you rush from group to group. Right now brutes and blasters are inclined to rush along to keep fury/defiance up. Stalkers and scappers are spiky in damage due to crits, but it is 'consistent' as not dependent on building things up (though Stalkers do have some of this). It will also not be as big a deal on solo play since the rate of damage scaling up and be adjusted to get to where you want the kill speed to be.

 

Oh, also I don't really see why sentinels get the .7 defense modifier other than baggage from the original devs belief that range is a defense in and of itself (though while that may have been the case in i0-1 which was city of blasters- they then added a bunch of things to make it not the case). Their defense values should be tuned to be in line with the other DPS defensive classes at .75 which really isn't much of a tweak.

 

So to sum up, ditch opportunity as is. Give the class a damage scalar of 1.0 (vs. .95 as current), and increase the resistance debuff on each attack to around 10% that will be tuned to stack to around 50%. Adjust the defensive values to .75 from .7 on armors.

 

The debuff number should be tested to find a proper value, but I'm just throwing 50% out there because it will still put stalkers behind blasters with a good head of defiance (which couples with their higher scalar).

 

Oh also, the ATOs will have to be adjusted. You can keep the sentinels ward proc (though it is rather weak). Perhaps had in a resistance buff at low health one like on one of the tanker sets. Also as there are a lot of resistance sentinel armor sets (more than defense), it would probably be a good idea to have the ATOs include some resistance bonuses.

[aethereal]

Resistance debuffs are not affected by the purple patch as far as I know.

[FDR's Think Tank]

On one hand, I like the idea of giving Sentinels an overwatch power of some sort... Really drive home the playstyle.

 

 

On the otherhand, it seems fairly balanced as is too. You aren't a glass cannon, but you can't tank. The problem is the role is subtle without something like a covering fire/overwatch mechanic built into the powersets.

 

Sentinels aren't an Epic Archetype either, so perhaps they feel a bit homeless. Perhaps if there was a way to hint they are a Goldside Archetype. There is lots of soloing there, and that's what the Sentinel really shines at anyway... Maybe he needs 4 non epic buddies to keep him company. We are a way out from that.

 

 

I would also note that you can't crunch numbers very easily on positional defenses. A Sentinel should be like a sniper, or playing like they are fighting a DFB Hydra all the time. Staying in one place is bad. You might not have the glass jaw of a Blaster, but you don't have his variety of ways to push enemies away or lock them down when they are approaching. If a WAVE of them come at you, you are in JUST as much trouble, rightfully so. The ENTIRE reason why anyone uses a ranged weapon over a melee one is because DISTANCE IS ARMOR. You can't calculate that so glibly by throwing out numbers and saying "LOOK, my Archetype doesn't do as much as much damage as the guy with no range and he doesn't do as much as the guy with a glass jaw!" You are trading off TTK for slightly lower chances of dying, with those odds being GROSSLY in your favor if you play like a total coward, zipping away the moment you bite off more that a nibble.

 

Perhaps an Overwatch/Covering Fire mechanic could be a varied Buff/reaction power. You'd grant it to an ally... for allies with Primary/Secondary Defensive powerset, the Covering fire would give them some sort of defensive bonus/resistance to binds/kb. If you use it on an ally without a defensive powerset, it would make your character automatically attack an enemy who strikes your chosen pal with a mini alpha strike (possibly force changing your target... or not.)

 

Edited October 25, 2019 by FDR's Think Tank
More ideas.

[Cutter]

I made a couple comments over in the Sentinel forum, figured I should perhaps drag them over here where they are better situated. Copy/pasting rather than linking because I'm like that sometimes.

 

Let's make Sentinels play well everywhere, and give them an Assault primary paired with a hybrid Defense/Support secondary? I'd rather stick closer to the idea of Sentinels as ranged scrappers (or if I can rephrase it, armoured lite-blasters), which was the Captain's stated design goal.

 

To that end, a primary with mostly ranged attacks and 1-2 melee/pbaoe attacks makes sense (as there are some scrapper sets with range). I see the primary as being at least 2/3 true ranged attacks. For many of the current Sentinel blast sets, given existing pbaoes and even cones, that's likely to mean swapping in maybe only 1 true melee attack, and making one or two target aoes into pbaoes.

 

The idea of a hybrid secondary comes from my own desire to add a little more team utility - I'm thinking 5-7 armour set powers and 2-4 support powers, to make it clear that self-protection is the main focus of the secondary.

 

As a very (very) rough example, here's a quick re-imagining of Water/Regen cause I play those sets:

 

PRIMARY

Aqua Bolt - no change
Hydro Blast - no change
Water Burst - changed to pbaoe
Dehydrate - changed to melee ST attack
Tidal Forces - no change
Whirlpool - changed to pbaoe
Water Jet - no change
Steam Spray - no change
Geyser - no change

 

SECONDARY
Fast Healing - no change
Reconstruction - replaced by Healing Aura (empathy)
Quick Recovery - no change
Instant Regeneration - no change
Dismiss Pain - replaced by Regeneration Aura (empathy)
Integration - reduce +regen
Resilience - remove res disorient (it's redundant with Integration anyway), add +hp from Dismiss Pain
Second Wind - changed to self/ally rez
Moment of Glory - no change